Obligatory Fuel Thread (Full Version)

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BigWolf -> Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/26/2013 11:37:36 PM)

We have one of these every release, so surprising to not see one yet

My take...
Is it me, or are travel ranges far to extreme once you get the proper hyperdrives?

I was really enjoying the pre-warp and warp bubble ranges where I'm having to actually build well placed strategic gas mines in order to properly extend my ships operating ranges

However, now I've researched the Gerax all my ships can nearly go across the entire map (15x15), infact my explorers easily can
Now I remember on the original release many people were moaning about how hard it was to keep fuel going and reach places, etc which I believe did lead to some changes in RotS? (at least if my memory serves right), but has it changed even more and supplies buffed further, or am I just imagining it?

Personally, I would like it better if you at least need Ultra fuel storage and Tech 2/ 3 Reactors and hyperdrives before able to go from one end of a 15x15 galaxy to the other (or at least give us bigger galaxies again, hint hint ;) )


PS. Would also love to be able to modify component stats so I can actually configure max operational ranges to my own tastes ;)




ASHBERY76 -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/26/2013 11:44:00 PM)

Agreed.You get a nice slow expansion phase in pre war,bubbles and then whole galaxy can be explored very fast.I would like to see a maximan range that has to do with drives and not fuel.What the game could offer was constant exploration to mid-end game.




Raap -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/26/2013 11:44:44 PM)

I'd like some kind of global modifier to adjust these things, and/or component modification. I don't expect we'll see that before the next 'modders' expansion though.

At any rate, while I personally would enjoy really short ranges(and generally a bit slower engines) and a much more 'strategic' gameplay where supply outposts were actually required, my concern is for the micromanagement and/or AI part of this. They have enough trouble as it is adjusting to fuel shortages, and current ship orders will be canceled if they go to refuel, so it's already creating a fair bit of problems. There's also the concern about freighters not being good/quick enough at bringing fuel to newly created space ports or resupply bases, rendering them useless for refueling purposes for quite some time.

I'm afraid imposing more restrictions on ships in this area right now would only make it worse. Can't rightly say if it's longer or not with the new expansion though. Maybe you're just using different reactors which give more energy per fuel?




Bingeling -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 12:21:50 AM)

I think fuel ranges are fine once you exit preWarp. But after some upgrades to reactors and fuel cells, range becomes rather irrelevant. When you stumble into space, a fleet can not do its work much more than 1 sector away.




arkhometha -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 1:11:14 AM)

I completely agree with the OP and Ashbery76.




Mansen -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 1:34:02 AM)

Instead of limiting it to the drives, I think we should look at some sort of maximum distance from the nearest colony.

Your crew need food and water - and materials to do repairs. Nothing runs completely smooth out in the unknown space. Watching enough Star Trek should teach anyone that, hehe.

My suggestion is to simply add another slider ala. the colonization sector range one during game set up. Basically if a ship flies out further than this rule limit, it'll start using increasingly more fuel for its movement. Eventually you'll be spending so much fuel that your ships will run dry in moments - maybe add a slow passive damaging effect if a ship tries to break the limit by flying dry for prolonged distances.




Speeder -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 1:45:34 AM)

In the game I just finished, the fuel tech was very important...

The game had TOO MUCH ground to cover in battles, and no time to refuel, some fleets I ended using ships with loads of fuel (like 20 ultradense) and hope that I Would not need to refuel as I chased battle after battle... (thankfully, damage repair robots and loads of shields also helped =D the only time I had to repair was when a fleet got hit by 4 blackhole attacks at once from 4 defense platforms and one of the broken components was the auto-repair one...)




Tanaka -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 2:49:00 AM)

Agreed it is what I love so much about the pre warp age is that everything means something. I don't want this to go away as I advance in tech [:(]




FireStarterXoX69 -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 4:11:17 AM)

I seem to notice this too. I started up a game and it's really neat having to worry about fuel and such, especially when you love to micro everything. Once I got my gerax and upgraded fuel cells I can literally fly to the other end of space without having to worry about fuel. I agree that there should be some kind of global slider for this.




Darkspire -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 4:15:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigWolf

We have one of these every release, so surprising to not see one yet

My take...
Is it me, or are travel ranges far to extreme once you get the proper hyperdrives?

I was really enjoying the pre-warp and warp bubble ranges where I'm having to actually build well placed strategic gas mines in order to properly extend my ships operating ranges

However, now I've researched the Gerax all my ships can nearly go across the entire map (15x15), infact my explorers easily can
Now I remember on the original release many people were moaning about how hard it was to keep fuel going and reach places, etc which I believe did lead to some changes in RotS? (at least if my memory serves right), but has it changed even more and supplies buffed further, or am I just imagining it?

Personally, I would like it better if you at least need Ultra fuel storage and Tech 2/ 3 Reactors and hyperdrives before able to go from one end of a 15x15 galaxy to the other (or at least give us bigger galaxies again, hint hint ;) )


PS. Would also love to be able to modify component stats so I can actually configure max operational ranges to my own tastes ;)


+1

Darkspire




apbarog -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 5:03:07 AM)

I agree 100%.

I'm in a challenging game right now, with only 1 colony. I reduced the game settings to make fewer colonizable planets. I'm really enjoying this game, just trying to slowly discover what's around me and hold onto my mining stations.

Then I get the Gerax drive.

I had just gotten a chunk of the map discovered through espionage. Now my explorers are going very far away, even beyond the few empires that I can see. And they are doing so in every direction.

This was my first disappointment in this game. I only have one colony and can now travel much farther away than I want to. I'd rather expand my empire outward at a somewhat controlled pace, not jump to the other side of the enemy just because I can. My game is still early.

Bottom line is please limit travel distance so that exploration and expansion ramps up steadily during the game, not all at once. Thanks.




TrooperCooper -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 5:51:38 AM)


quote:

(or at least give us bigger galaxies again, hint hint ;) )


This is the way to go in my opinion. It means range would still be meaningfull and at the same time you get a feel of progress as you can still expand further and faster. And the games would become even more epic.

The best part however is: with shadows reworked and smoothed engine, it should be technically possible without turning the game into a slideshow now. [:)]




Haree78 -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 8:30:24 AM)

Personally I like it how it is. The explorers are designed to have enough fuel to not have to come in too often but larger military ships don't have large ranges. As the military ships increase in size with tech their range is limited as well anyway. The explorers are still limited by speed for quite a lot of the game and most of my exploration is actually done through swapping/buying maps anyway. Even if the explorers were limited in range I would still have the whole galaxy map at the same rate anyway.

If you guys want to create games where your explorers are artificially limited it is the easiest thing in the world to create a theme with design templates and take a fuel cell or 2 off the explorers and never design them with more.




Ralzakark -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 9:00:11 AM)

Would a simple fuel slider might be the best way to do this, which would increase/decrease the amount of energy produced by each unit of fuel?

Those who want more limited ranges could ramp it up so that each unit of fuel would produce less energy and so each fuel cell would take you less far.

I say a 'simple' slider as it wouldn't be me who was coding it.




ASHBERY76 -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 9:48:59 AM)

I think running out of fuel all the time is not fun and hurts the a.i.I would like a range limit slider just like the colony one.




Raap -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 10:14:52 AM)

The AI really is the main concern here. I'm sure the devs would like us to have as many options as possible, but any and all settings relating to this could and would greatly influence AI performance, potentially breaking it completely. In pre-warp start this doesn't matter much, because you're highly unlikely to meet another empire while the logistics limitations are in effect( and pirates don't have logistic limitations). But the AI really has to be capable of handling any such settings before they could officially implement it.




Haree78 -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 11:46:44 AM)

I just think it's being exaggerated "However, now I've researched the Gerax all my ships can nearly go across the entire map (15x15)"

Have you designed ships with lots of fuel cells or something because this is far from what I have found?




BigWolf -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 1:12:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Haree78

I just think it's being exaggerated "However, now I've researched the Gerax all my ships can nearly go across the entire map (15x15)"

Have you designed ships with lots of fuel cells or something because this is far from what I have found?


Right, removing my high-supply template and going back to the base AI ones I'm only seeing a 25-50% range lose with military ships
All I've done is added 2 (more with explorers/scouts) extra over the AI design

Ofc, a major issue I'm now seeing is the AI loving to send fleets sectors away to refuel despite being right next to refueling points... but that's a whole different thing and potentially a Caslon shortage issue

Perhaps its a case of because I've long learnt to make designs work how I need them it just seems easier than it would otherwise




Bingeling -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 1:39:11 PM)

Got to love it. Add more fuel cells and complain that ranges are too long [:D]




Raap -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 2:12:22 PM)

Your ships/fleets won't bother visiting refueling points that don't hold enough fuel for the entire fleet, in my experience. Unless you specifically tell them to, that is.

There's another problem there though, where the private sector either doesn't or is very slow with distributing fuel to new'ish bases.




BigWolf -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 7:41:51 PM)

Warning, wall of text ahead
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Got to love it. Add more fuel cells and complain that ranges are too long [:D]


You know, I think it's beyond 'supply stuff' since I'm seeing the AI doing the similar things
I feel it might as simple as the speed difference (aka balancing) between Gerax and the warp bubble, after all, going from a warp bubble to a Gerax is an instant 6x-ish max speed increase (2,000 to 12,500 max speed) with a 40% energy requirement drop also, meaning you can fit for max speed alot easier

Quick math, 3 Basic reactors give 138 energy which is enough to full power the warp bubble with 6 energy spare for static... meaning on larger ships you simply won't have full warp speed without using a 4th reactor
However, using a Gerax, you can often get away with 2 basic reactors for full hyperspeed, total of 92 energy with 14 energy for static requirements, the larger beginning designs are still fine with two as you usually are only loosing 8-10% speed anyway
Infact, on the base constructor using 2x basic reactors a warp bubble is around 1,000 speed (0.92 sectors), a Gerax is around 11,200 speed (9.79 sectors)
This is what the game gives me when I first load up a pre-warp game with no changes to the design beyond the warp/hyperdrive
Other designs obviously are far less range due to less fuel cells by default (ignoring the fact that this could lead the AI building mines/bases outside of the range of any freighter)
Interestingly, a base explorer requires 4 for full speed, or leave 3 for 16 speed lose (so how badly do you want the full speed ;) )

Perhaps the tech-tree prior to the 'classic-era' needs expanding further, atm it's just what? less than a dozen extra techs you need to research pre-warp vs classic?
And with the exception of Hyperdrive Tech. you can research all the initial classic tech from game start

Maybe even, a rebalance might work instead, consider lowering the Gerax speed and not have the energy drop so much
Of course that will lead to issues of rebalancing the other drives unless (for example) we then change the others requiring Tech 3 Gerax research prior

Sure it could be argued that we're intended to research Advanced Nuclear Fission first, but you still have the same issue as before, infact in a few designs the number of reactors needed is still the same, but you get the bonus of further ranges (better fuel efficiency, and more speed regardless when you're using a reactor lower than needed for full speed)




Bingeling -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 9:48:44 PM)

I took some notes in my AAR while selecting cruisers vs destroyers in fleets. This is typically at the border where you get the "mid tier" techs. Range displayed in the design was 3.4 vs 5.6 sectors. If you include some fighting in your trip, this is hardly the full galaxy.

3.4 sectors for destroyers is 1/3 of the width of a normal 10x10. It is not like the other edge of it seems close.

The gerax drive is fine. If you want more distances, go larger galaxy and less stars, and beg for 20x20 maps. There could be room for a "half-way" setting. If I could swap preWarp for that, I would be more than happy. Warp bubble is not half way, it is mostly "in system travel".




BigWolf -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 10:34:20 PM)

15x15, 400 stars is what I do, which is lower than 2 stars average per sector

And I've been asking Elliot for larger maps since... well, since the game was released




Bingeling -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 10:46:10 PM)

The problem with "more, more" distance, is that at some point it has no further effect than reducing travel speed and bumping fuel consumption :)

I think the game you dream of may require a whole new AI...




BigWolf -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/27/2013 10:59:49 PM)

Oh ofc, the AI struggles with the current mechanics alot of times, multiply the factors and it'll cripple it lol




Mesthione -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/28/2013 12:37:34 AM)

I'm currently playing a 999k game (I love the marathon pace) after abandoning a 460k game on a massive map (max stars, 19 races) because of the lag (despite engine improvements and my beastly computer). I noticed the same thing too...you still get out of the system way too easily, and it remains too beneficial to just ram through the hyperdrive technologies as fast as you can. The Gerax offers such an improvement over warp bubble that it is worth the investment over improved reactors, fuel storage, and most other research besides maybe energy collectors, shields and the first construction size upgrade.

After the Gerax you can travel the whole darn galaxy on most map sizes. Maybe it's because I'm loaded heavily up front on fuel storage but I still think there needs to be a more gradual improvement. Maybe increase the gap between the 2nd tier gens and the Gerax, and decrease the max speed of the Gerax to maybe 4000-6000. It would definitely improve the early era, but perhaps pirates would need re balancing due to their need to go distances early-game.




Scrove -> RE: Obligatory Fuel Thread (5/28/2013 12:55:22 AM)

Perhaps "simply" adding in a upgrade of the Warp bubble would work, perhaps 2000 more speed and slightly less energy intensive?




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