U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding



Message


GI Jive -> U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/17/2013 12:41:40 PM)

Several sources indicate the 10th Mountain Division was scheduled to participate in the invasion of Japan, although specifics I've located are sketchy. I'm thinking of adding the unit to my own mod. Does anyone have better info on historical plans for the unit/why it is not included in any game scenarios? Also, what would the 1945 Division TO&E look like?




Terminus -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/17/2013 12:51:27 PM)

Almost no data to support that the 10th would have been sent to the Pacific.



[image]local://upfiles/16369/75B32E349BF5487C92CE3409D9AC129B.jpg[/image]




PaxMondo -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/17/2013 1:17:19 PM)

Grew up knowing quite a few members of the 10th Mtn.  If there was such a thought, it was never a rumor within the unit itself.  Although, after VE day, any combat unit would have to think they could be part of the HI invasion forces.




GI Jive -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/17/2013 8:07:37 PM)

Thanks for the info. The TO&E is very helpful. In Hell to Pay, Giangreco states the 10th returned to the U.S. in August '45 and that after a period of training it "would be among the very last ETO divisions to ship out for the Pacific" and that "perhaps" it would have been used to mop up hold-outs in the mountains. All kinda vague; sounds like it might have arrived (if at all) after the Coronet landings which is beyond the timeframe of most scenarios.




m10bob -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/18/2013 12:40:04 PM)

Some of those units were kept in Europe as part of the occupation..My dad was with the 29th I.D. from Omaha Beach to VE day and he still stayed in Bremerhaven till at least 1946,(even with all the accumulated "points"..)




Blackhorse -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/20/2013 3:36:21 AM)

All of the Divisions scheduled (as of August, 1945) to participate in the Downfall invasions (Olympic, November 1945; Coronet, March 1946) are included in WitP-AE. The 10th Mountain Division is not one of them.

In the awful event that the invasions became necessary, additional divisions would have been transferred from the ETO and the US to followup after Coronet. The 10th Mountain could well have been one of them, but I have not seen anything purporting to be a US OOB for the Pacific that goes beyond March, 1946.




JeffK -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/21/2013 1:37:48 AM)


http://10thmtndivassoc.org/chronology.pdf

20 May 45 The 10th moves to Udine in northeastern Italy, near Trieste (see MAP 7). Its mission is to join
with troops of the British Eighth Army in preventing further westward movement by
Yugoslav forces.
14 Jul 45 The 10th is ordered back to the U.S. for further training in preparation for the invasion of
Japan. Plans call for the division to attack Kyushu on November 2, 1945
.
26 Jul 45 The 86th Regiment sails from Livorno on the SS Westbrook Victory, arriving Newport News,
VA on 7 Aug.
28 Jul 45 The 604th sails from Livorno on the USS Blue Ridge, arriving Newport News, VA on 9 August.
31 Jul 45 The 85th Regiment sails from Naples on the SS Marine Fox, arriving New York harbor 11 Aug.
2 Aug 45 The 87th Regiment and most of the rest of the Division sail from Naples on the Mt. Vernon,
arriving 11 Aug at Newport News, VA.
6 Aug 45 News is received that an atomic bomb has been dropped on Hiroshima.




Blackhorse -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/21/2013 12:11:33 PM)

Jeff,

Thanks. I think the 14 July assessment below is incorrect. No US divisions transferring from the ETO to the PTO were scheduled to participate in any stage of Olympic. In mid-August, when the 10th Mountain reached the US, the military leaders were still wrestling with how to implement the demobilization 'points' scheme. The European combat veterans with the most service were being discharged; the challenge was to fill up and retrain the units slated for the PTO with new recruits, and soldiers transfered from disbanding units who did not yet have enough points to be discharged.

The Army brass recognized that it would many months to train these re-organized divisions back up to combat trim. The first of the ETO divisions were slated to participate in Coronet in March, 1946. The 10th Mountain was a fine unit, but I have not seen it mentioned in any Downfall OOB, up to and including March, 1946.

After Coronet, the general plan was for 3 additional US divisions per month to reinforce the invasion of Japan. The 10th might well have been among them, but I have not come across an OOB that names them -- and it is beyond the scope of AE, anyway.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


http://10thmtndivassoc.org/chronology.pdf

20 May 45 The 10th moves to Udine in northeastern Italy, near Trieste (see MAP 7). Its mission is to join
with troops of the British Eighth Army in preventing further westward movement by
Yugoslav forces.
14 Jul 45 The 10th is ordered back to the U.S. for further training in preparation for the invasion of
Japan. Plans call for the division to attack Kyushu on November 2, 1945
.
26 Jul 45 The 86th Regiment sails from Livorno on the SS Westbrook Victory, arriving Newport News,
VA on 7 Aug.
28 Jul 45 The 604th sails from Livorno on the USS Blue Ridge, arriving Newport News, VA on 9 August.
31 Jul 45 The 85th Regiment sails from Naples on the SS Marine Fox, arriving New York harbor 11 Aug.
2 Aug 45 The 87th Regiment and most of the rest of the Division sail from Naples on the Mt. Vernon,
arriving 11 Aug at Newport News, VA.
6 Aug 45 News is received that an atomic bomb has been dropped on Hiroshima.






JeffK -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/22/2013 12:16:11 AM)

I wouldnt be surprised, the timespan seems too short and while I could understand one of the airborne divisions being rushed, 10th Mountain wasnt specialised enough to be fast tracked.

This shows the danger of accepting what is recorded without getting firm corroborating data. This may have happened at a high Staff level but hadn't filtered down any further.




PaxMondo -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/22/2013 2:27:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

This may have happened at a high Staff level but hadn't filtered down any further.

That, I find quite beleivable ....




JeffK -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/22/2013 2:32:38 AM)

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/utils/getfile/collection/p4013coll8/id/3387/filename/3397.pdf

Strategic Plan for Downfall, dated late May 1945.

While it doesnt mention Division names, it says that for "Coronet" after the assault there would be a need for 4 Divisions per month from the "Strategic Reserve"

I assume most ETO Divisions fell under this threat.




inqistor -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/23/2013 7:44:09 AM)

Despite the name - MOUNTAIN actually means, that Division was easy to transport (smaller guns), so it would be probably used as air-transported reinforcements (something like German Luftlande Divisions).

Germans used one of their Mountain Divisions during attack on Crete - in this way. It arrived on freshly captured airfield.




JeffK -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/23/2013 7:57:10 AM)

It was originally 10th Light Division (Alpine) and included many of the USA's greatest skiers.

It was a Mountain Division, not an Airlanding Division.




PaxMondo -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/23/2013 10:12:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

It was originally 10th Light Division (Alpine) and included many of the USA's greatest skiers.

Yes it did. You would have seen several of them at Olympic games in the 50's, and then as coaches ofthe US Ski Team, the Heads of Ski Areas, Heads of Ski Patrols, and Heads of Ski Instruction in both Colorado and Vermont. That is how I knew a lot of them ....




oldman45 -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/23/2013 2:59:47 PM)

JeffK, I think the point Inqistor was making the 10th mountain didn't have the train a regular infantry division had and probably could have used air transport to reinforce instead of off loading at a captured port or over the beach.




Symon -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/23/2013 7:26:12 PM)

The light division was planned as an all-purpose division useable in any conditions where relatively little equipment would be carried; mountain, jungle, airborn, or amphibious operations where it could rely on attached pack mules, native bearers, gliders, or landing craft, respectively. Three were formed 89th Light (Truck), 71st Light (Pack, Jungle), and 10th Light (Pack, Alpine). 71st and 89th were converted to standard infantry divisions. 10th was retained in light of its high proportion of mountaineers and skiers in order to prevent dilution of valuable training and assets. With the new TO 7-131 (4 Nov. 1944) it became essentially an infantry division containing ski-mountain personnel and animals substituting for some motor transport.
Paraphrased from Shelby Stanton.

Under TO 7-131, the “Mtn” Regt was 1/3 larger than a contemporary Para or Glider Regt; 143:2891, vs 114:1951, and 81:1540, respectively (a standard Inf Regt was 152:3100, for comparison). It had 3 times as many MMGs and LMGs as a Para or Glider Regt and, in fact, had the same number of MMGs, and twice the LMG authorization, of a Std Regt. 1/3 more mortars (same as a Std). Half as many 2 ½ ton trucks as a Std, but 60% more than a contemporary Glider Regt. Same number of ¾ ton weapon carriers and jeeps as a Para or Glider Regt, but replaced their 150 or so utility carts, jeeps, etc.. with 950 animals (of which 135 were riding animals, presumably substitutions for jeeps).

Recon and Eng units were similar to Std TO units, but with a higher percentage of animals. The AT Bn was standard in all respects. The divisional QM Bn was designed to be substituted out with a standard QM Coy/Bn having the requisite amount of motor transport.

DivArty was three Bns of 75mm pack howitzers (light, animal). But the commander of the 605th convinced MG L.E.Jones to use the batteries of the 605th just like the gun companies of contemporary Inf Regts. That was done and throughout Italy, the 10th was directly supported by the 1125th (105mm, attached). The majority of conventional Arty support for the 19th was done by the 1125th and Corps Arty.

Thoughts

10th Mountain was not an air-deployable unit under any rational definition of the term.

10th Mountain was probably the last unit the US would designate for Japan Ops. Their training and experience would make them invaluable for “specific” operations. Japan has mountainous terrain, but it isn’t Alta, frikkin Utah. Maybe, just maybe, in a fever dream of a staffer from Iowa, the Coronet troops isolate the last Japanese holdouts in the central mountains and we need some mountain goats to go get them. Notwithstanding the Marines have been doing that sort of thing since forever.

No. Sorry, but 10th Mountain gets to go home.




Terminus -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/23/2013 7:59:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

JeffK, I think the point Inqistor was making the 10th mountain didn't have the train a regular infantry division had and probably could have used air transport to reinforce instead of off loading at a captured port or over the beach.


Except that's not what he said. And what he said was patently incorrect.




JeffK -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/23/2013 10:04:31 PM)

I also believe that the US Divisions which had fought through the Pacific were pretty capable at operations in "operating light" for short periods given the ability of the USAAF to provide airlift and ground support.

BUT, if the campaign went on too long, they could well be part of the "4 Divisions from Strategic Reserve" as mentioned by Sutherland.




Symon -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/23/2013 10:32:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
BUT, if the campaign went on too long, they could well be part of the "4 Divisions from Strategic Reserve" as mentioned by Sutherland.

Seriously doubt it, for numerous reasons. But then, people can believe what they wish.




dwg -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/24/2013 4:58:53 AM)

There might be a case for deploying 10th Mountain if a campaign developed on Sakhalin/Karafuto for some reason, where their TOE would suit them to the terrain, but otherwise, why use a Mountain Division if an Infantry Division is available instead?

Even if we haven't gotten anywhere with 10th Mountain there are some useful details in this thread. I've done a reasonable amount of reading up on Downfall, but I hadn't appreciated that units from ETO were effectively being rebuilt with new recruits as they rotated back to the States and prepared to deploy to PTO. As newbies who haven't yet seen the elephant rather than veterans who have, their effectiveness is likely going to be significantly lower than I'd anticipated.

Does the same rebuilding process apply to 8th Air Force and other air assets? I know they were re-equipping with B-29s, but are we seeing units with the same old title, but a completely different set of faces?




Symon -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/24/2013 2:24:33 PM)

Yeah, looking at it more, JeffK is probably right. 10th Mtn wasn't overseas very long so they probably didn't have a lot of points towards discharge. The Army might well have kept all them mountain climbers in their back pocket for stuff in Chubu or Tohoku. Oh well, it's back to "nobody knows and it's anybody's guess".




inqistor -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/24/2013 11:28:19 PM)

According to post #7 - 10th Mountain Division was supposed to take part in invasion of Kyushu at 2nd November. Landing was planned for 1st November, so obviously it was supposed to be second wave - so no beach assault.
There is no such unit in plans for Olympic - but that only means, that unit have no specified landing area, and it was NOT supposed to land from sea. Still it could be in airlifting reserve.
And 2nd November means it was NOT in some later reserve. It was part of immediate invasion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I also believe that the US Divisions which had fought through the Pacific were pretty capable at operations in "operating light" for short periods given the ability of the USAAF to provide airlift and ground support.

This is problem of support weapons, and logistics. Infantry Divisions used M3 105mm Howitzer, in their Cannon Companies. Mountain Division - 75mm Pack Howitzer, which weighted HALF of 105mm (both gun, and ammunition), and could be easily disassembled for transport. AND it could be simply pushed by soldiers, without any vehicle. There was the same problem with 57mm, and 37mm AT guns.
As dwg said - there is no reason to use Mountain Division, instead of Infantry Division, because it have significantly less fire support. But it also works the other way - no reason to use Infantry unit, when you can use Light unit, which is already equipped (and trained) for easy transport.




Symon -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/25/2013 8:23:04 PM)

You miss the point Inquisitor. US units were built on the cookie-cutter approach. I refer you to Shelby Stanton, and some of the US Army historical documents from the period. But somehow, I don’t think you are able to apply any thought to appreciations of things.

Sorry for annoying you. Shouldn't have bothered to reply in the first place. Oh, well.

Yippy Ki Yay




dwg -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/26/2013 10:54:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor
As dwg said - there is no reason to use Mountain Division, instead of Infantry Division, because it have significantly less fire support. But it also works the other way - no reason to use Infantry unit, when you can use Light unit, which is already equipped (and trained) for easy transport.


You're neglecting the minor issue of bang for the buck, or rather firepower per divisional shipping slice. If you have limited ability to funnel troops into the beachhead, then those troops have to be as capable as possible. 10th Mountain doesn't meet that requirement as well as an infantry division.

WRT post 7, that's already been contradicted by later posts, and I'd be surprised if every division redeploying from ETO didn't get a warning order to prepare for redeployment to the PTO. Being told to have your unit ready for combat not later than X in no way means you will be in combat on X.






oldman45 -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/26/2013 2:19:57 PM)

I never thought that the 10th mountain train was that big, thanks for the info!




PaxMondo -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (2/27/2013 2:16:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg
.... and I'd be surprised if every division redeploying from ETO didn't get a warning order to prepare for redeployment to the PTO. Being told to have your unit ready for combat not later than X in no way means you will be in combat on X.




+1




inqistor -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (3/2/2013 10:02:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg


quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor
As dwg said - there is no reason to use Mountain Division, instead of Infantry Division, because it have significantly less fire support. But it also works the other way - no reason to use Infantry unit, when you can use Light unit, which is already equipped (and trained) for easy transport.


You're neglecting the minor issue of bang for the buck, or rather firepower per divisional shipping slice. If you have limited ability to funnel troops into the beachhead, then those troops have to be as capable as possible. 10th Mountain doesn't meet that requirement as well as an infantry division.

I am pretty sure, this is what I exactly written two lines higher:
quote:

There is no such unit in plans for Olympic - but that only means, that unit have no specified landing area, and it was NOT supposed to land from sea. Still it could be in airlifting reserve.

But Infantry Division also was not organized for beach assault. They got temporary reorganization for assault sections in landing barges, which were later disbanded back into standard Infantry organization. Only Marines were organized for such tasks.

quote:

WRT post 7, that's already been contradicted by later posts, and I'd be surprised if every division redeploying from ETO didn't get a warning order to prepare for redeployment to the PTO. Being told to have your unit ready for combat not later than X in no way means you will be in combat on X.

Yet the Division was moved from ETO (while other units stayed there, and it was given specific date, and target (no some general "prepare for Japan invasion).
Eisenhower writes, that Airborne Division needed 2 weeks for planning assault, during operations in Germany (that is why they were never used in support - land assault went too fast). Gap between war end, and planned Kyushu invasion is great enough, to not exclude 10th Mountain Division.
Anyway, this is US Unit. Germans could operate ad-hoc (forward observers), but US artillery could not operate without specific maps, because they would be unable to support their troops. That means, that US Division had to always be prepared for specified area.




dwg -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (3/9/2013 1:17:33 AM)

quote:

Yet the Division was moved from ETO (while other units stayed there, and it was given specific date, and target (no some general "prepare for Japan invasion).


There's no point in a warning order that doesn't set a deadline for readiness.

quote:

Eisenhower writes, that Airborne Division needed 2 weeks for planning assault, during operations in Germany (that is why they were never used in support - land assault went too fast). Gap between war end, and planned Kyushu invasion is great enough, to not exclude 10th Mountain Division.


That's for units that are in theatre and ready to execute combat operations, which 10th Mountain wasn't. If we look at the Overlord Op Order for a parallel that is applicable to 10th Mountain, that states that US units are expected to be available 30 days after arrival in theatre, and in theatre for Downfall is not CONUS, it is in the Pacific. There's a comment in the Overlord Op Order that notes 504th RCT will leave America in early April, but is not expected to be available by 31st May (the Overlord target date).

quote:

Anyway, this is US Unit. Germans could operate ad-hoc (forward observers), but US artillery could not operate without specific maps, because they would be unable to support their troops. That means, that US Division had to always be prepared for specified area.[


You might want to consider 3rd Army's impromptu left wheel during the Battle of the Bulge. And if you think US artillery couldn't fire under control of forward observers, I wonder what you think all those Piper Cubs and Stinson Sentinels were actually doing over the front lines.




Symon -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (3/9/2013 6:14:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor
But Infantry Division also was not organized for beach assault. They got temporary reorganization for assault sections in landing barges, which were later disbanded back into standard Infantry organization. Only Marines were organized for such tasks.

You need to learn a few things about combat operations. Beach landing ops were carried out by "landing elements", not divisions, not regiments, but specific "elements", often Bn in scale. A landing involves months of planning and includes objectives down to the company scale. Every beach and every objective is burned into the hearts and minds of the units designated to carry that objective.

Any US Inf Div can assault a beach, so long as they have decent intel as to the objective. Can you say 29th (Let's Go) ID?

Marines were prefered as assault troops, in the Pac Theater, because they had a history of operating from ships, and their tactical paradigm was a bit more prompt and aggressive than the Army's.

Learn and understand.




Terminus -> RE: U.S. 10th Mountain Division - Downfall questions (3/9/2013 8:00:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg

quote:

Yet the Division was moved from ETO (while other units stayed there, and it was given specific date, and target (no some general "prepare for Japan invasion).


There's no point in a warning order that doesn't set a deadline for readiness.

quote:

Eisenhower writes, that Airborne Division needed 2 weeks for planning assault, during operations in Germany (that is why they were never used in support - land assault went too fast). Gap between war end, and planned Kyushu invasion is great enough, to not exclude 10th Mountain Division.


That's for units that are in theatre and ready to execute combat operations, which 10th Mountain wasn't. If we look at the Overlord Op Order for a parallel that is applicable to 10th Mountain, that states that US units are expected to be available 30 days after arrival in theatre, and in theatre for Downfall is not CONUS, it is in the Pacific. There's a comment in the Overlord Op Order that notes 504th RCT will leave America in early April, but is not expected to be available by 31st May (the Overlord target date).

quote:

Anyway, this is US Unit. Germans could operate ad-hoc (forward observers), but US artillery could not operate without specific maps, because they would be unable to support their troops. That means, that US Division had to always be prepared for specified area.[


You might want to consider 3rd Army's impromptu left wheel during the Battle of the Bulge. And if you think US artillery couldn't fire under control of forward observers, I wonder what you think all those Piper Cubs and Stinson Sentinels were actually doing over the front lines.


And nobody did radio communication between artillery and troops better than the US Army. NOBODY.

You've really shown your ignorance here, "Inquistor".




Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
2.709961E-02