LOS, I am giving up on this game (Full Version)

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commanderchrisp -> LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/13/2013 12:01:48 AM)

This is becoming silly: two hex range down a boulevard and no LOS between Panzer and Soviet Rifle Squad???

v 1.18, Giant Boards, Demolition FF.

I'm back to the board game. I really tried to get into this, sorry.





[image]local://upfiles/34452/0A3A52CADCF740E3A878CDCCEE9543CE.jpg[/image]




carnifex -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/13/2013 4:50:51 AM)

The panzer is in a light woods hex and so is the rifle squad two hexes to the north. The hex between the two is also light woods.

You assume the vehicle is positioned exactly in the middle of the road and that the Soviets are all standing around in a tight group in the center of their hex.

However, the road does not span the entire hex.

The game assumes both units are not completely suicidal and are positioned in the woods on the side of the road.

Use the "L" key to view the LOS from the hex under the cursor and examine your approach routes to determine which hex can see what.





fentum -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/13/2013 7:33:05 AM)


Hhmmnnnn...

I haven't seen that map, but those darker hexes look like a level one hill to me rather than light woods. If so, then the tank and rifle don't have LOS due to the plateau effect.

It's nothing to do with the road. Roads don't affect LOS IIRC.




commanderchrisp -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/13/2013 7:33:05 PM)

I was wrong, and have been playing this wrong in the board game:

4.0 ...Whatever terrain type surrounds the dot dictates the entire hex’s terrain type. (Some roads cover the center dot of a hex, but do not change the predominant terrain type of the hex.)

Perhaps I should not give up so easily... Thanks guys.
[8D]




fentum -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/13/2013 7:51:52 PM)

Don't give up on us, baby...

PS ARE those light woods or hills? They don't look like terrain on any map I have seen. More like a light orchard hedge down a boulevard.




commanderchrisp -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/13/2013 7:59:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fentum

Don't give up on us, baby...

PS ARE those light woods or hills? They don't look like terrain on any map I have seen. More like a light orchard hedge down a boulevard.


Mouseover say light woods. I thought Orchard-Road first, too. Good old ASL days...




fentum -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/14/2013 7:10:05 AM)


Ah ha oh ho




Chris Merchant -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/14/2013 9:48:07 AM)

Actually I think Commanderchrisp has every right to be doubtful.

In the board game it makes particular mention of the boulevard hex type that the panzer above is sitting in (5 F10) is not light woods :



[image]local://upfiles/86/5FEBAAC38183444AA27C7A7A66342E30.jpg[/image]




fentum -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/14/2013 5:26:59 PM)

I KNEW those weren't light woods!

Or are they?

Commanderchrisp has confused me now. I'm off to play some BOB:Screaming Eagles as a protest ... [;)]




danlongman -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/14/2013 5:45:21 PM)

I know it is not supposed to happen in wargames but in real life maps are often wrong
and "safe" places aren't always safe. I wouldn't throw something that cost money away
just because it pissed me off once.




Chris Merchant -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/14/2013 11:42:53 PM)

Apart from the small issue above, there are plenty of differences between the computer and board game versions. This would be particularly frustrating for those who own the boardgame, expecting a reasonably similar experience when purchasing the computer game, expecting that they could for instance play their friends more often online, rather than the monthly ftf game - and be able to utilise the same ruleset and expected outcomes.





fentum -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/14/2013 11:48:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

Apart from the small issue above, there are plenty of differences between the computer and board game versions. This would be particularly frustrating for those who own the boardgame, expecting a reasonably similar experience when purchasing the computer game, expecting that they could for instance play their friends more often online, rather than the monthly ftf game - and be able to utilise the same ruleset and expected outcomes.




The best way to achieve that goal is to use Zun Tsu. Works really well for two players, but clearly, no AI.




tsnouffer -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/15/2013 2:06:45 AM)

I have a handful of other LOS experiences where I was expecting one thing to happen b/c of my experience with the boardgame but it plays out differently on PC. There is a disclaimer on the product page that goes along the lines of "Line of Sight calculations use a 3D technique -- ray casting on the map geometry -- instead of the rules in the book. This allows the computer game to have more complicated hills than in the board game"

The problem is how do you know? There is a nice LOS tool, but short of using it on every hex in consideration how can a player know what to expect. Here's a flat level example that impacted gameplay.



[image]local://upfiles/42585/288BD0A96672459CB9FBE387BAC9827E.jpg[/image]




Chris Merchant -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/15/2013 2:53:44 AM)

Personally, quite happy to have simplistic hills :-)




fentum -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/15/2013 7:12:10 AM)


+1 to simple hills.

Do actual buildings block LOS in the PC game? The WHOLE HEX is considered to be blocking in the board game.

That would make a significant difference.

The L key is your best friend in any case.




Chris Merchant -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/15/2013 9:14:23 AM)

quote:

The WHOLE HEX is considered to be blocking in the board game


yes, it's so quaint and simple isn't it? :)

I still have no idea what is going on in the 'ray trace' LOS engine of the PC game, it's a voyage of discovery for me.

cheers




Jamm -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/15/2013 1:18:57 PM)

Just curious, I don't own the boardgame.
Do you trace LOS with a string or rubber band ala ASL.
Centre of hex to centre of hex?

I'm not aware of the differences in the 2 versions of LOS, but in the PC game it works out fairly intuitive most of the time.
But there are some oddities that can pop up.




fentum -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/15/2013 5:13:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jamm

Just curious, I don't own the boardgame.
Do you trace LOS with a string or rubber band ala ASL.
Centre of hex to centre of hex?

I'm not aware of the differences in the 2 versions of LOS, but in the PC game it works out fairly intuitive most of the time.
But there are some oddities that can pop up.


Boardgame is centre to centre with the terrain at centre point assumed to cover whole hex.

e.g. a 'building' represents a built up hex not a specific building.

I use a rubber band which often gives rise to sore fingertips. Also useful for thwacking at a distracted opponent...




tsnouffer -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/16/2013 12:20:33 AM)

I use Eyeball Mark 2 or a laser level if I am feeling fancy.




VR_IronFist -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/16/2013 2:36:04 AM)

I use a tape measure. Here are the totality of the board game LOS rules; can't get any simpler than this.

[image]local://upfiles/39379/13B36C2DAED54D0599CF348F5CEE4091.jpg[/image]




fentum -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/16/2013 8:31:51 AM)


Hi VR_Ironfist,

Good diagram, demonstrates the boardgame LOS well. They should have included the case where the line goes through an element of clear terrain in a hex with a building to show that the HEX, not the building itself blocks LOS.





MillertimeRC -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/22/2013 3:34:37 AM)

According to that diagram, the los in Ty's previous image post should be clear, since it's traced along the hexsides of building hexes but not into them. That's the same as line A to E in the above diagram, it goes along hexside of B woods but isn't blocked because the adjacent hex is clear.




Chris Merchant -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/22/2013 11:04:32 AM)

Yes. I would be interested to find out the logic behind such a major discrepancy between the boardgame and computer game. One wonders how the change in LOS engine has affected game balance, for a start.




ericbabe -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/22/2013 6:05:49 PM)

We wanted the engine to be able to handle arbitrary height levels, so that level designers could make maps using USGS data and similar.




fentum -> RE: LOS, I am giving up on this game (2/23/2013 2:33:19 PM)


WHAT?

No way?

The PC LOS is to allow user generated maps from GPS systems and the like?

Go back to simple boardgame style, quick!




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