WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (Full Version)

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netjam99 -> WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 4:40:14 PM)

For my career I every few years have to go through some online training courses. Some if I were young again and worried about such things actually can be used as credits with some universities.

Its a near run thing if AE or those training courses require more study to my way of thinking. I have found myself constantly studying the manual, reading AARs and scouring the forum for tibbits of knowledge. That does not mention reading two History books and some fluff like W.E.B Griffins novels. Have two more books on order from Amazon. About a month of play and study, still I am no doubt a very lowly plebe.

That has me thinking the WitP AE curriculum for sure would equal a second level history course covering in the WWII in the Pacific. Then as a bonus the equivalent of a introductory course in logistics...perhaps the following?

HIST 202 War in the Pacific
LOGT 102 Logistics Management in Pacific Theatre






Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 5:01:55 PM)

in time spent, it is more like a PhD




Alfred -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 5:07:10 PM)

Nice thought but the reality is different.

There is too much abstraction in the game which allows most players to do things which are just not possible in real life. Players often quibble over really small details being not what they perceive to be historically accurate (invariably displaying their own misjudgements) but fail to pay proper attention to real world considerations if doing so would impede their "fun".

Alfred




mike scholl 1 -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 5:31:58 PM)

Alfred got it right..., but the real learning experiance comes from making that discovery. Start playing something as all-consuming as WITP and you just naturally are drawn to reading up on the subject. If you think of it as the ultimate "study motivation" you're probably as close to the truth as we aare likely to get. [;)]




dr.hal -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 6:12:46 PM)

At the risk of being drawn and quartered I don't fully agree with Alfred. The game can act as a real trigger for more in-depth study and if one tags some research assignments on to this, then it could be argued that some real learning is going on. All writing and research of events is an abstraction. Some much better than others. So if this aids in the accumulation of knowledge, then it can be seen as a form of education. I recall playing my first board game "Midway" and this lead me to read Walter Lord's book. The rest is history (pun intended). Maybe Matrix Games should run this by the ACE for a review! Hal




Symon -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 6:17:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: netjam99
That has me thinking the WitP AE curriculum for sure would equal a second level history course covering in the WWII in the Pacific. Then as a bonus the equivalent of a introductory course in logistics...perhaps the following?

HIST 202 War in the Pacific
LOGT 102 Logistics Management in Pacific Theatre


I think netjam99 has the right of it. Although I might give the logistics course a 202.

Ciao JWE




Alfred -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 6:55:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

At the risk of being drawn and quartered I don't fully agree with Alfred. The game can act as a real trigger for more in-depth study and if one tags some research assignments on to this, then it could be argued that some real learning is going on. All writing and research of events is an abstraction. Some much better than others. So if this aids in the accumulation of knowledge, then it can be seen as a form of education. I recall playing my first board game "Midway" and this lead me to read Walter Lord's book. The rest is history (pun intended). Maybe Matrix Games should run this by the ACE for a review! Hal


The key problem is that as a self study course, AE allows for very wrong conclusions to be drawn. This is evidenced all the time by the silly propositions made by many players who fail to maintain perspective.

If on the other hand you are contemplating having a course presenter who will mark harshly down the fantasies which so many players actually believe constitute real history/possibilities, then yes the game would have some value as an educational tool. IOW, an external discipline would need to be imposed. AE is a great game but it does need that external discipline otherwise too many draw the wrong conclusions.

It is well and good to view something as a good catalyst for further personal development. However when one is talking about tertiary level improvement, very few people can proceed without a structured approach and feedback imposed externally. Feeding one's prejudices is rarely the way to develop one's mind.

Alfred




Oberst_Klink -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 7:12:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: netjam99
That has me thinking the WitP AE curriculum for sure would equal a second level history course covering in the WWII in the Pacific. Then as a bonus the equivalent of a introductory course in logistics...perhaps the following?

HIST 202 War in the Pacific
LOGT 102 Logistics Management in Pacific Theatre


I think netjam99 has the right of it. Although I might give the logistics course a 202.

Ciao JWE

OT:
Da'man! A USN Carrier TF 101 would be more helpful. Despite all efforts and selecting the best skippers
and TF leaders, in all my Guadalcanal PBEM games (5x) they seem to sink in a direct clash with the IJN KB, why?

Klink, Oberst

P.S. They're not sunk *yet* in your smashing extended Guadalcanal scenario...




netjam99 -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 7:27:15 PM)

[image][IMG]http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/8817/thepaperchasejohnhousem.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/image]


I think Alfred is just the professor we are looking for to impose structure and shine the cold harsh light of prospective upon the curriculum.






linrom -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 7:53:41 PM)

I strongly disagree with Alfred. Matrix has made this game into ahistorical mumble jumble. This is one of the reasons why so many players have to spend countless hours messing around with the editor trying to undo to what Matrix did--to make this game more historical and playable.

I have to SECOND guess and research almost all of the IJA and IJN OOB because I do not trust the game. This is not what I indented to do. But yes my research work is equivalent to a college course on Japanese WWII history because of Matrix game design---they're like Hollywood producers who gave us such classics as their own version of Battle of the Bulge.

But foremeost the most astounding short sided decision to me that Matrix made is to do as little coding as possible and let the game engine do the rest( the game engine does not have any AI capability, it relies on dice rolls, good grief)--that's why one can't achieve anything resembling historical accuracy.

So if you want history, you have to look up what really happened and hence you get an education in Pacific War II.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 8:41:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: linrom

I strongly disagree with Alfred. Matrix has made this game into ahistorical mumble jumble. This is one of the reasons why so many players have to spend countless hours messing around with the editor trying to undo to what Matrix did--to make this game more historical and playable.

I have to SECOND guess and research almost all of the IJA and IJN OOB because I do not trust the game. This is not what I indented to do. But yes my research work is equivalent to a college course on Japanese WWII history because of Matrix game design---they're like Hollywood producers who gave us such classics as their own version of Battle of the Bulge.

But foremeost the most astounding short sided decision to me that Matrix made is to do as little coding as possible and let the game engine do the rest( the game engine does not have any AI capability, it relies on dice rolls, good grief)--that's why one can't achieve anything resembling historical accuracy.

So if you want history, you have to look up what really happened and hence you get an education in Pacific War II.


If you want history, put a sock on it and RESEARCH what the mandate of the AE team was. It never ceases to amaze that newbies with 22 whole posts come on here to "correct" the devs and players who have over a decade with the engine.

You're in your first week of kindergarten lecturing (in some cases literally) Ph.Ds.




dr.hal -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 8:47:48 PM)

When I first saw the electronic version of the game (remember I saw the board version a LONG time ago) I did think it would be a good "strategic simulation" game for a college course. And yes Alfred, I did see it as very much needing a "reality checker" involved (much like most wargames have umpires). There are certain aspects of this game that are normally not simulated to any degree or depth. The abstraction of supply is a good example. This game at least makes an attempt at both tactical and strategic supply, something most games totally ignore. It also attempts (albeit poorly) to replicate discord between commands WITHIN a side, let alone between sides. This aspects would make an interesting simulation over the course of a semester or two. So I can see value in it not just for the stimulation it triggers in those of us who follow up with real research, but also to reveal to players the importance of supply, upgrades, wear and tear, etc. that most games ignore. Does it reflect reality, no, of course not, I wasn't suggesting that it does. But could it give players a feel for a strategic narrative, I think it could. I would love to take a relatively small class, say about 12-15 and divide them up and give them commands and allow only paper communications, etc. I would also throw in umpire controlled caveats to the play. I think it could be fun AND instructive, a rare combination in college classrooms (electronic or face to face) today.




jeffk3510 -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/29/2013 10:20:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: linrom

I strongly disagree with Alfred. Matrix has made this game into ahistorical mumble jumble. This is one of the reasons why so many players have to spend countless hours messing around with the editor trying to undo to what Matrix did--to make this game more historical and playable.

I have to SECOND guess and research almost all of the IJA and IJN OOB because I do not trust the game. This is not what I indented to do. But yes my research work is equivalent to a college course on Japanese WWII history because of Matrix game design---they're like Hollywood producers who gave us such classics as their own version of Battle of the Bulge.

But foremeost the most astounding short sided decision to me that Matrix made is to do as little coding as possible and let the game engine do the rest( the game engine does not have any AI capability, it relies on dice rolls, good grief)--that's why one can't achieve anything resembling historical accuracy.

So if you want history, you have to look up what really happened and hence you get an education in Pacific War II.


Who are you again, and what are your previous 21 posts about?




Joe D. -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 12:56:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

When I first saw the electronic version of the game (remember I saw the board version a LONG time ago) I did think it would be a good "strategic simulation" game for a college course ...


Wasn't there a classroom course that evolved into a strategic sim called "The Calm and the Storm"?

The game could even be graded from a computer printout of the student's progress in managing a Euro nation during WW II.




JeffK -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 1:42:08 AM)

No wonder we dont get newbies, I wonder if a potential sale went out the door.

I cant see what he said was wrong, disagreeing with Alfred isnt new and as he isnt party to the limits that Matrix put on the devs has a fair point about the accuracy at vanilla level.

No blame to the devs, they did what they got "paid" for.

Played properly as an historical exercise, you can learn a lot more from WITPAE than from most books.

Its easier to see the whys and wherefors of military decisions as easily as you can wonder at the folly of others.

The game fails in its lack of politics, and wasnt designed to cover them.

As one who thought he knew a lot about the PTO I have learned a lot more after getting sucked into the WITP world.

Many have stated they had no idea about A or B and their knowledge of the region was non existant, horizons have broadened and they may have a better understanding of events and where they fitted in.




Canoerebel -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 2:09:26 AM)

Huge AE fan here, but Alfred's large point is right. This game is a game, not a college-level course.

There are things I have learned through the game, primarily (1) names of units; (2) geography; and (3) the huge importance of planning and logistics (in fact, no college course could teach the latter - only real life experience could, with a monster game like AE coming next in line).

I will say the geography lesson is pretty intense. I'm sure I didn't know the wherabouts of places like Ndeni, Port Headland, Mersing, and Lanchow until I started this monstrous and magnificent game.




DivePac88 -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 2:16:59 AM)

Yes it is a game, differently a wargame and nothing more. Admittedly it is very complex, but that doesn't make it college level. I think that Mrs Divepac is very complex also, but that doesn't make her a Professor. [;)]




Chickenboy -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 5:27:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

When I first saw the electronic version of the game (remember I saw the board version a LONG time ago) I did think it would be a good "strategic simulation" game for a college course. And yes Alfred, I did see it as very much needing a "reality checker" involved (much like most wargames have umpires). There are certain aspects of this game that are normally not simulated to any degree or depth. The abstraction of supply is a good example. This game at least makes an attempt at both tactical and strategic supply, something most games totally ignore. It also attempts (albeit poorly) to replicate discord between commands WITHIN a side, let alone between sides. This aspects would make an interesting simulation over the course of a semester or two. So I can see value in it not just for the stimulation it triggers in those of us who follow up with real research, but also to reveal to players the importance of supply, upgrades, wear and tear, etc. that most games ignore. Does it reflect reality, no, of course not, I wasn't suggesting that it does. But could it give players a feel for a strategic narrative, I think it could. I would love to take a relatively small class, say about 12-15 and divide them up and give them commands and allow only paper communications, etc. I would also throw in umpire controlled caveats to the play. I think it could be fun AND instructive, a rare combination in college classrooms (electronic or face to face) today.


I'll go with Dr. Hal here. Having taught all manner of college courses-from the course coordinator to the 'participant' level, WiTP:AE could easily fit into the mold of such a course. What he describes would be an excellent course offering. I'd sign on as JFB associate professor. [&o]




ilovestrategy -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 8:18:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel



I will say the geography lesson is pretty intense. I'm sure I didn't know the wherabouts of places like Ndeni, Port Headland, Mersing, and Lanchow until I started this monstrous and magnificent game.



Heck, I am married to a Filipina, speak and write Tagalog, and just in a the last two weeks as the Nips rampage the Philippines(that's a touchy subject sense I don't know what I'm doing [:D] ), I'm learning more about Philippine geography.




spence -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 11:45:24 AM)

quote:

I'd sign on as JFB associate professor.


That would be a problem then. A JFB would do little to discourage JFB fantasies such as the most fundamental fantasy of all: "all I have to do to break the stalemate in China is start a war with the rest of the world".





spence -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 12:03:37 PM)

The logistics of shipping everything half way round the world (for the Allies) is simulated relatively well if with considerable abstraction. The movement of supply overland not so much.

Nothing I have ever read suggests that the IJA could move supplies adequate for major formations long distances independently from the railroads and ports/rivers.

I am presently engaged in a PBEM in which my IJ opponent surprised me strategically by seeking to conquer China. I'm not complaining about the strategy (since it has worked sorta) but I have reflected on whether it is realistic to see Japanese armored units driving to the Siberian border in Western China. Gasoline to run them to say nothing of parts and ammunition transported by what: coolies?...over a thousand miles? The Red Ball Express (lol)?

(The Malaya Campaign, the IJAs most well prepared land campaign, came within a hair's breath of running out of steam before the necessary final victory at Singapore.)

Major offensive operations by the Western Allies in France in 1944 were seriously affected by supply shortages until Antwerp was captured and the railroads were operational. The Allies had a lot lot lot more trucks to jury rig some kind of supply than the IJA ever had.

IIHO the logistics of the land campaign are not well simulated.




LoBaron -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 12:42:10 PM)

Yep, spence, agree.. I always regarded overland warfare (including logistics) as the most lacking aspect of WitP AE. There, the high abstraction level in combat and logistics, in combination with extreme unit detail, backfires IMHO.

On contrary, Politics & diplomacy never was a focus of the game, so arguing it is not implemented in a historical sense is pretty moot.
For the same reason WitP lacks in teaching history lessons in that specific area, but it never was intended to do so.




dr.hal -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 2:57:17 PM)

Folks,

I never meant to imply that the game ALONE could be a college course; it can not. However after teach MANY college courses at the undergrad and graduate level, this game could definitely be incorporated into a long term project for credit, proving the theory that not all college courses need to be dull and dreary! You could infuse papers into this project, team work, leadership and a whole litany of other "objectives" all of which could be measured. I fully agree with what has been said about the limits and effectiveness to the game's abstractions of "the real thing" but all such learning is an abstraction unless you are present at the event and even then you "learn" only from your limited view of the event, you discover the other aspects through research, formal or informal. When I was talking with Karlis a few years ago, that was one of our topics we discussed and it was given serious consideration. Maybe it will yet happen!

And I certainly have a position for Chickenboy in this hypothetical game, commanding officer of the war production effort from Hiroshima!




pws1225 -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 3:08:21 PM)

This game is nothing like college. If it were, there'd be way more beer swilling and late night carousing going on. WitPAE players are way more sophisticated than that, aren't we?




Chickenboy -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 3:22:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Folks,

I never meant to imply that the game ALONE could be a college course; it can not. However after teach MANY college courses at the undergrad and graduate level, this game could definitely be incorporated into a long term project for credit, proving the theory that not all college courses need to be dull and dreary! You could infuse papers into this project, team work, leadership and a whole litany of other "objectives" all of which could be measured. I fully agree with what has been said about the limits and effectiveness to the game's abstractions of "the real thing" but all such learning is an abstraction unless you are present at the event and even then you "learn" only from your limited view of the event, you discover the other aspects through research, formal or informal. When I was talking with Karlis a few years ago, that was one of our topics we discussed and it was given serious consideration. Maybe it will yet happen!


Yes. For marketing strategy (in my MBA course work), we had a company simulation that took input from advertising budgets, sales, R&D, the vagaries of the stock market, and so forth as an integrative whole. The simulation was not the entirety of the course-we also had didactic lectures, other group exercises and visiting speakers. However, it *was* the most engaging aspect of the course.

This game would provide a very useful portion of any such coursework re: logistics, geography, platform and leadership management, etc., etc.

quote:


And I certainly have a position for Chickenboy in this hypothetical game, commanding officer of the war production effort from Hiroshima!


D'oh! [:D]




jeffk3510 -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 3:25:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Huge AE fan here, but Alfred's large point is right. This game is a game, not a college-level course.

There are things I have learned through the game, primarily (1) names of units; (2) geography; and (3) the huge importance of planning and logistics (in fact, no college course could teach the latter - only real life experience could, with a monster game like AE coming next in line).

I will say the geography lesson is pretty intense. I'm sure I didn't know the wherabouts of places like Ndeni, Port Headland, Mersing, and Lanchow until I started this monstrous and magnificent game.


+1




bradfordkay -> RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course? (1/30/2013 11:28:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pws1225

This game is nothing like college. If it were, there'd be way more beer swilling and late night carousing going on. WitPAE players are way more sophisticated than that, aren't we?



Speak for yourself. [;)]






Isn't Uncommon valor being used by the Australians in an officer training program?




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