Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (Full Version)

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burroughs -> Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (1/29/2013 12:26:00 PM)

Hello fellow wargamers.

Actually this thread is a kind of a poll perhaps as what I would like to know is the common feeling in the community towards the issues that I displayed in the thread title.

I can vaguely remember that there was once a thread somewhere here regarding the hypothetical NATO - Warsaw Pact scenarios where lots of folks were discussing whether it a legitimate move to drop the WP paras onto NATO supply point and reinforcements entry hexes early in the game as thus blocking the completely.

I have come across such tactics in my Nghia Lo '51 scenario where an opponent of mine dropped the French CEFEO paras onto my supply points and erased them completely off my supply net. I deem that a gamey behaviour as it is making the most of the simplification of the supply model in the game as it cannot be fully modelled the way it functions in reality. In fact what one gets in a real world is a supply net with hubs rather and not the supply point that are firmly placed therefore in reality the supply network is much more flexible and not a two dimensional point approximation. In the aforementioned Indochinese scenario there was no point for me in carrying on with that as the Viet Minh were completely unsupplied throughout the rest of the scenario - a strategic blow which came ona tactical and operational level, because the other player can switch the supply point on on the map and get to know immediately where they are for both sides. It's the same like peeking into the other side's OrBat to get to know where and what appears to block the entry hexes - a cheat definitely. I'd say that it's like a boxing match in which one folks refuses to cross the gloves and instead of wearing them, he goeas for strangling the other one with their laces.

Don't mistake that though for a completely legitimate outmanoeuvering the enemy in order to interdict his supply lines as it is a principle of a mobile warfare which I have been applying all the time. I know that there is a difference between horizontal and vertical envelopment though.

What's Your stance, fellas?

I'll double that at the Blitz and Rugged Defense I think.




Oberst_Klink -> RE: Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (1/29/2013 12:35:26 PM)

Witam Kamerad Polska!

Easy to handle with the event engine. E.g. in my Kharkov '43 adaptation from Joao I handled the 'captured' German Supply Depots as follows: Russians capture it and after four days they're dry, e.g. they're being removed. Alternatively you can create events that gradually downgrade the supply value. Presto! :)

Klink, Oberst




Panama -> RE: Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (1/29/2013 1:10:48 PM)

Seems to be bad form to me. Those supply points should be off limits to paras. Didn't the French drop them in the areas of their garrisons as reinforcements? Can't see them dropping them into rough terrain. The scen designer should have made them off limits to paras and limited the French to where they could drop. It's not like they are dropping into the French countryside. Perhaps contact the scen designer and ask them to limit French paras. Just my opinion.




sPzAbt653 -> RE: Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (1/29/2013 1:17:58 PM)

Place an AAA Regiment on the Supply Points and see how your silly human opponent likes that.




Oberst_Klink -> RE: Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (1/29/2013 4:12:48 PM)

Oh, I didn't read though properly; but yeah, a fortified Base Force would do the trick, just as sPzAbt653 said.

Klink, Oberst




burroughs -> RE: Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (1/30/2013 8:49:07 AM)

First of all, the insight form a designer's perspective is also valuable and formative, but I actually meant thePBEM gameplay issues solely at that point - practice against theory.

Well, I think I know how to perforem a nasty surprise as a form of a contermeasure for lots of contingencies already, have some experience under my belt, but in that particular scenario - and number of some other I happen to know - the force does not have any meas and its disposal to take care of their supply bases - that is why I say "the axis of action is somewhere else"; they are flung to far away from the map edges wher their supply comes from. Besides, the focus was also on the fact that the other side uses some gamey tricks as lokking into the other OrBat and table of reinforcements or goes for the supply points because one can turn the supply net on.

Perhaps it's indeed a natter of a poorly designed scenario or a house rule which have not been introduced or observed honorably as my opponent suggested.




General Staff -> RE: Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (1/31/2013 12:22:38 AM)

It's kind of scenario-specific and I'd suggest agree up front if you or your opponent have or there is any doubt, and create your own 'House Rules'.

Most players get to PBEM after playing hotseat/PO games fairly extensively, if only to learn how to play. Once you've played 2WiN- say- 5+ times you know what events may/may not occur, what the reinforcement schedules are etc... So personally I don't see any problem in looking over the scenario in the editor or via any 3rd Party add-on (there are some or you can DiY) to see what's going (to go) on- events, probabilities, reinforcements etc... and Supply Points. And it makes sense to turn the supply net on to see where your sources and/or Supply Depots are, and to assume your opponent has too, either because he's interested from a play or design perspective, or he's played the scenario multiple times as both sides and has- deliberately or unconsciously- memorized all this information. Consider it valuable intelligence, which both sides are entitled to and can be better/worse at deducing impacts or using to their advantage/disadvantage. Like real life.

But again it's scenario-specific. In Nghia Lo 1951 there is also a French Supply Point on-map, which the VM could just as easily take to cripple French supply before the paras arrive. The French can equally drop on/near VM Supply Points. The designer specifically mentions the French had previously targeted VM supply, so perhaps this tactic might have been expected. Perhaps the designer should have made the Supply Points 'Exclusion Zones' or specifically stated that, as a 'House Rule', neither side's SPs could be approached. It does seem difficult- if not impossible- for the VM to protect their SPs AND seize the valley, but maybe that's what this scenario is designed to illustrate, but I'm just guessing.

Maybe to avoid either party feeling aggrieved, just agree on House Rules and restart or replay or mirror the game. At least playing French in a mirror game you'll get to stomp all over the VM Supply Net too and see how they like it.




shunwick -> RE: Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (1/31/2013 10:37:11 AM)

Burroughs,

If we are talking about Nghia Lo 1951 by Jaoa Lima then it is completely irrelevant whether your opponent has dropped paras on your supply points. The Viet Minh are are on a hiding to nothing in that scenario. Even if there wasn't an event error on event 8, the Viet Minh are dead in the water. You can never win. Your opponent has probably done you a favour by wasting his paras on your supply points.

It is quite an interesting little scenario for PBEM but it has to be modded quite significantly to make it so. Out of the box, it is just not worth playing PBEM.

Best wishes,
Steve




General Staff -> RE: Capturing the enemy supply points and reinforcements entry hexes. (1/31/2013 5:00:26 PM)

Yes, I was going to add I wouldn't fancy spending 40 turns hacking my way through jungle and up and down hillsides near Nghia Lo 1951-like in TOAW as either side, but refrained. My mind just boggles at what even (now more craftier?) Elmer himself would get up to in his 6 hour stretches of wild abandon in this scenario...




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