Cheese anyone? (Full Version)

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Deserted Fox -> Cheese anyone? (1/24/2013 1:13:58 PM)

Below is a suggestion posted in an aar as to how to scout enemy units.

Your vote......

A. Extremely realistic
B. Cheese Burgher with extra cheese

quote:

Recon like crazy! This entails heavy normal recon as well as recon in force by doing night bombing of interesting/suspicious units/stacks using a single LB unit (DB-3 is perfect) to get a full read of what units are in the hex. Keep track of the elite mot





Klydon -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/24/2013 1:34:52 PM)

Cheese in this case, but I freely admit the entire air model is very poor at this point that needs all sorts of "house rules" to keep from getting out of hand.




timmyab -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/24/2013 1:53:07 PM)

The whole unit bombing thing is a giant cheeseburger as far as I'm concerned.I don't do it and I'd take a dim view of an opponent that did.
Unit I.D shouldn't appear in interdiction attack details either.




gingerbread -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/24/2013 2:30:37 PM)

Using the bombers of the Luftwaffe as flying fuel cans isn't exactly historical either, so when it comes to usage of air assets, the gloves are off.

Recon by force is something to trade away in a pre-game HR discussion. Plenty of things I'd like to see the Axis to have to do without.




821Bobo -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/24/2013 3:18:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
Using the bombers of the Luftwaffe as flying fuel cans isn't exactly historical either, so when it comes to usage of air assets, the gloves are off.


Luftwaffe did it. It was common practice in opening stages of Barbarossa. With the latest nerf (AB must be within 5 hexes from the railhead) I can not see anything wrong with it.




Flaviusx -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/24/2013 4:29:15 PM)

5 hexes from a railhead hardly fixes the issue given the range these birds are capable of flying. The air supply ability in this game is grossly overstated and this band aid doesn't even begin to reign it in.

They're going to have to do better than that come WITW. This little band aid rule isn't going to do a thing there, since the Allies can do whatever they want from Britain so far as air resupply goes.

Recon in this game is also ridiculous generally. There is little or no opportunity for operational surprise. Players have way more intelligence on the enemy than they ought to. and once again the air model is the villain of the piece.




saintsup -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/24/2013 9:16:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


Recon in this game is also ridiculous generally. There is little or no opportunity for operational surprise. Players have way more intelligence on the enemy than they ought to. and once again the air model is the villain of the piece.


Exactly !!

Is this moddable ?




Klydon -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/24/2013 10:28:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

5 hexes from a railhead hardly fixes the issue given the range these birds are capable of flying. The air supply ability in this game is grossly overstated and this band aid doesn't even begin to reign it in.

They're going to have to do better than that come WITW. This little band aid rule isn't going to do a thing there, since the Allies can do whatever they want from Britain so far as air resupply goes.

Recon in this game is also ridiculous generally. There is little or no opportunity for operational surprise. Players have way more intelligence on the enemy than they ought to. and once again the air model is the villain of the piece.


I almost think if you want to play with fog of war, you do that and then don't allow recon missions to even make it interesting. No 1 plane bombing missions to get around this limitation either.




Von Weber -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/25/2013 1:03:24 AM)

quote:

5 hexes from a railhead hardly fixes the issue given the range these birds are capable of flying. The air supply ability in this game is grossly overstated and this band aid doesn't even begin to reign it in.

Agree. The possibility of fuel airdrops so by bombers as by transports must be totally canceled.




Deserted Fox -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/25/2013 1:32:49 AM)

Hi Ginger,

I agree the Bomber air resupply is cheese, but two wrongs don't make a right. Just find an opponent, like I have, who agrees not to use bombers for air supply to mobile units. Remember the Germans are also hit with rather severe Blizzard penalties, which "appear" to be a a tad too much.

Whilst the transport planes may have more capacity then they may have had in real life, in the game I am playing it seems to be a good balance allowing the Germans to still advance quickly in some areas and cause pockets, but removed the "Road Trip" to Stalingrad ability.

Flav, right as usual, current recon ability is way over stated.

Achieving surprises against an opponent in wite is practically impossible. In WW2 axis and allies went to great lengths to either launch surprise attacks or mislead the enemy as to their intentions.

Midway, Operation Bagration, DDay and Rommels fake tanks. At Stalingrad the build up was done at night with strict guidelines, but yes still the build up WAS detected, but not the full extent of it. Most games cannot replicate these deceptions, which is fine, game engine limitations etc. But at the same time not only do we as commanders not have to deal with such subterfuge, in wite we have enhanced recon abilities.

I like Klydons suggestion to just don't use recon planes. This will make a game far more interesting for both sides.

Thx to the devs though. I am enjoying the game and learning a lot. I look forward their wite 2 and WIE to be released in the future.




sillyflower -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/25/2013 7:13:40 AM)

I suspect you have found an opponent who is either naieve or a masochist




loki100 -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/25/2013 8:51:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Weber

quote:

5 hexes from a railhead hardly fixes the issue given the range these birds are capable of flying. The air supply ability in this game is grossly overstated and this band aid doesn't even begin to reign it in.

Agree. The possibility of fuel airdrops so by bombers as by transports must be totally canceled.


this is probably a naive question - but is there any way to construct a house rule that stops this? I thought that the alloaction of which airunits went on which particular mission was determined by the game engine not the player? So even if you gather all your transports onto a single airbase, the choice of which units go where is out of your control?




Blubel -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/25/2013 10:08:47 AM)

If you use "shift + right mouse click" you will ge a window in which you an select the aircraft to fly.




gingerbread -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/25/2013 3:10:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deserted Fox

Hi Ginger,

I agree the Bomber air resupply is cheese, but two wrongs don't make a right. Just find an opponent, like I have, who agrees not to use bombers for air supply to mobile units. Remember the Germans are also hit with rather severe Blizzard penalties, which "appear" to be a a tad too much.

Whilst the transport planes may have more capacity then they may have had in real life, in the game I am playing it seems to be a good balance allowing the Germans to still advance quickly in some areas and cause pockets, but removed the "Road Trip" to Stalingrad ability.
---

Never thought that my suggestion re: Night Bombing would generate this much reply - the mission and the bonus pay off have been available for a long time and most probably used for a long time as well. It took for someone (in this case me but it could have been someone else) to point out that the value of the info about the enemy units is enough to run these mission even if the casualties caused can be expected to be minimal.

I had a somewhat similar realization when I first read the AAR thread by the guy who gladly used up air miles for the level bombers in order to air transport fuel. He even published screenies to show the fuel available in selected mech units and that is what opened my eyes to what he thought important and to which I concur: Operational mobility for the lead mech units, which has a major influence on the pace of advance achievable. It also re-opens the factory raiding tactic.

The op tempo is on the high side even without this boost (Leningrad, Voronezh and Rostov in '41 is possible) and was addressed by the devs with the muling nerf some time ago. With the air fuel boost, the tempo is even higher (the is mention of "Near Kharkov by turn 3") and IMO that breaks the game. Night air transport is almost immune to interception so there is not much the Soviets can do to counter.

Factory raiding should not be possible or better stated, should be avoidable with less constraint than it is now - the Soviets have to adhere to a strict evac schedule if they want to keep what is needed to create an offensive force later on and that makes the '41 season dull in addition to already being on the loosing side, again in '41.

Intel has always been too good in boardgames (with the possible exception of Operation Crusader by GDW) and the randomized starting strengths in WitE is not something that the Axis has to take into account when doing their first turn. You know that Guderian can easily get to Minsk with 2 Pz Corps less than was used historically. [8|]

As to the blizzard, I've stated that an extra 100k - 200k of Axis blizzard casualties will not win the '42 Soviet campaign. In any case the Axis casualties during '41 before blizzard are too low so that evens it out.




Iota -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/25/2013 3:17:31 PM)

quote:

I suspect you have found an opponent who is either naieve or a masochist


both [:D]




Leber -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/25/2013 8:39:52 PM)

Here are some thoughts I had in regards to improving deception operations and recon:

Have four types of recon available; radio intercept, passive, reconnaissance in force, and air recon.

1. Passive recon occurs during the logistics phase, and involves units that are in hexes adjacent to each other. It would represent the use of observation posts and front line units to observe and detect nearby enemy units.

2. Radio interception also occurs during the logistics phase and represents how the Axis and Soviets would intercept each other's radio signals in order to discover forces behind the front line. After 10-12 hexes or so the effectiveness of radio interception will decrease a lot.

3. Air recon is less effective, but it's use is essentially the same.

4. Reconnaissance in force. This would be a new type of attack that units could execute and would involve scouting enemy positions in order to gather intelligence and identify front line formations. Very important for determining fort levels, which wouldn't be revealed automatically.

There would also be two types of deception measures, passive and active:

Passive deception involves unit's camouflaging foxholes, maintaining radio discipline, concealing road and rail movement, etc. These measures would be used to counter radio interception and passive reconnaissance, and also occur during the logistics phase.

Active deception would have an AP cost, and would be deception measures used to help prepare for an offensive or conceal a strong defense. It would include:

1. Simulated buildup. You select a unit, several units, or even a whole army, and a second overlapping "copy" of the unit would be created, with a special coloring to indicate that these units aren't actually real. Then the real unit can be moved elsewhere, while it'll appear that it's still in the same place. This can only be done in hexes not adjacent to the enemy. The deception can be revealed through air recon, or even radio interception. But there's also a chance that it'll appear real.

2. Disguised buildup. This would be an enhanced version of passive deception. Basically it greatly lowers unit detection from air recon, passive recon, radio interception, and reconnaissance in force. This would be used to disguise the buildup for an offensive, or regroupment by rail or on foot. It can be used for units adjacent to an enemy hex, but at least one unit on the front line will always be visible.

All these techniques were used by the Axis and Soviets historically.

Further there will be modifiers over time. To represent improved Soviet deception and reconnaissance, over time their passive and active abilities will improve so that by 1944 it will be very difficult for the Axis to detect Soviet buildups without extensive reconnaissance, and the Soviets will have an easier time identifying Axis forces. Deception AP costs for the Soviets will also decrease over time. Reconnaissances in force would also be more costly for the Soviet's early in the war, and yield less information.

The Axis will also receive some modifiers. For instance it's passive reconnaissance will be somewhat better than the Soviet's, as was historically the case, though this gap will decline over time. And as the Soviet's enter Axis territory the density of radio stations will also increase, improving radio interception.




delatbabel -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/28/2013 9:44:34 AM)

It's cheese, but pales in comparison to:

* Surrounding stacks of Soviet units prior to Nov '41, but not attacking them until after that date to deny the free rebuilds.
* Wiping out every enemy combat unit in a pocket, but being careful not to come adjacent to any of the HQ units so that they don't auto-relocate.
* Running supplies for the entire German army down a single rail line.
* Para dropping a para X way back onto the rail line to cut that supply.
* Garrisoning half of AGN's front with Finns in the winter of '41.




Flaviusx -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/28/2013 9:58:38 AM)

Those Axis players who like to isolate HQs and not relocate them are too clever by half. That's just an AP free opportunity to execute an incompetent leader for the Soviet when he manually displaces the sucker. There aren't many superstar leaders in the Red Army and chances are more than good he's done you a favor here.

The surprise turn is great for this in particular.






AFV -> RE: Cheese anyone? (1/28/2013 11:06:26 AM)

Leber +1
I think those are some great ideas. That would really add to the game.
I know, not until WitW or WITE2, ect, yaddah yaddah.




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