Babes Guadalcanal Scenario (Full Version)

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Symon -> Babes Guadalcanal Scenario (1/21/2013 9:19:27 PM)

The Babes Guadalcanal Scenario 034 is back up on the site. It got a major facelift, thanks to Sam Natalionis, and is now compatible with his upcomming 1942, Operation SF scenario.

Still having trouble getting that pesky AI to act like we want it to, so the posted version is still H2H or PBEM only. Maybe one day we'll get the AI under control [:D]

Anyway, it's up.

Ciao. JWE

Sorry, here's the link https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/




oldman45 -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/22/2013 12:02:39 AM)

Thanks boss.




Blind Sniper -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/22/2013 11:40:14 AM)

Thank you very much, I'd like to give a try [:)]




Blind Sniper -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/22/2013 4:31:33 PM)

Symon, two dumb questions for you:
1) can I play this scenario with the last michaelm's unofficial public beta patch?
2) I think I don't need to download the extend map, is it correct?

Thanks




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/22/2013 5:05:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

Symon, two dumb questions for you:
1) can I play this scenario with the last michaelm's unofficial public beta patch?
2) I think I don't need to download the extend map, is it correct?

Thanks

Ciao, Blind Sniper.

Not dumb. Yes, you can play the scenario with any and all of Michaelm's beta patches and I recommend you do that.

You should use the extended map. The scenario has Shortlands base moved down one hex and the original shortlands hex renamed to Buin. The extended map has the art work in panel 24 that supports the new base layout. The pwhexe file has the addition of an island in the new shortlands location. When the AI finally gets finished, both of those bases will be called on, so it's probably best to start it out with the extended map.

Should have mentioned that in the instructions on the web site. My bad. Will correct the oversight.

Ciao, JWE




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/22/2013 6:37:38 PM)

BTW, see you have a PBEM game coming up. Would be very interested on thoughts about a few areas.

Are there too many or too few transport ships? We tried to make it as actual as possible, but sub ops are waaaay too effective for both sides, especially when players use 20/20 hindsight. So just picking off the limited number of transport/cargo ships could make it way too easy for one side or the other. But just doubling the transports would give both sides the opportunity to do what they never could do irl. Matter of balance. Could just cut the number of subs in half [8D] but would like some input on a player's perception of the shipping situation.

Also fuel/supply; too much, too little? That's easy enough to tweak, but player perceptions do play a role in determining how much.

Would appreciate comments. Ciao. JWE




Blind Sniper -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/22/2013 7:54:20 PM)

Ciao Symon,

thanks for your support, I installed all necessary stuff and it seems work properly. The map is bigger than stock and it looks nice.

quote:

BTW, see you have a PBEM game coming up. Would be very interested on thoughts about a few areas.


Sure but maybe I'm not the right person, I don't have enough experience to know if something is unbalanced or not.
If you want I can try to write an AAR (English skills and time permetting) and you can see yourself how is going.




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/22/2013 8:19:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper
Ciao Symon,
Sure but maybe I'm not the right person, I don't have enough experience to know if something is unbalanced or not.
If you want I can try to write an AAR (English skills and time permetting) and you can see yourself how is going.

AAR is not necessary. Experience isn't necessary. Just play it out and give give me your thoughts, no matter what they are.

A lot of newbys play small map scenarios, so what they percieve and learn is very important. So too is their input on the playability of small map scenarios.

You are exactly the 'right kind' of person. 'You' are who we built these scenarios for. Please help us improve our product by telling us where we can improve things. You will find we are always willing to respond to criticism, comments, suggestions on Piedmontese recipes, etc..

Ciao. JWE




Blind Sniper -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/22/2013 9:00:31 PM)

I will try to do my best [:)]




dwg -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/23/2013 4:00:45 AM)

Downloaded, been wanting this for a while ;)




Blind Sniper -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/26/2013 6:21:31 PM)

Symon, sorry to bother you but I have some more questions for you.
Given that I don't think you are reading my AAR here my doubts:

Why some dot base have so many supply respect a normal ones? Is it intended?
(i.e. Dagua dot base (and no units there) start the game with 1000 supply and 800 fuel whereas Wewak with an Eng unit start with 120 supply/fuel).

I noticed that Allied transport ships are already unloading units at Lunga/Tulagi, moreover the Australian brigade is at PM in one turn, maybe there is there a magic movement in the first turn for both?
Fine for ships but not so sure about ground units.

Thanks




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/26/2013 7:26:03 PM)

Ciao, Blind

Yes, I'm reading your AAR and posted some thoughts about fuel/supply and dot hexes.

The scenario begins on Aug 6, which is invasion day, so the 1st MarDiv is pre-programmed to load and 'magic' move to Kunga/Tulagi so the scenario begins with the Marines arriving out-of-the-blue, as it were. Pretty much the same with Moresby, although perhaps a 'regular' move would be more appropriate. The original scenario design wanted to have things happen, in the first 2-3 days, as they happened irl.

Now, clearly, in a PBEM environment, an Allied player can tweak the TFs to go somewhere else, or trash them entirely. The scenario specific opening moves are more for the AI, and for the player who wishes to accept the day-1 movements and spend his time marshalling his rear area forces for subsequent operations. This is a 'Guadalcanal' scenario, after all, so it starts with the invasion of Guadalcanal.[;)]

There's some Japanese magic moves in the scenario. Some of the early arriving reinforcements magic move from Truk to Rabaul, but they are not required to continue to Guad. I mean, who is dumb enough to throw Ichiki against 1st MarDiv? So maybe some other units arrive a few days early and the whole magilla sails to reinforce Tassafaronga. And so on, and so on ...

The scenario must have starting conditions, just like PH in the GC game. That's what the scenario data is all about. But just like the GC, a PBEM player can do whatever they wish.

Hope this answered your question. If not, please feel free to post again and get as specific as you wish.

Ciao. JWE




Blind Sniper -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/26/2013 9:53:53 PM)

Thanks again for your answers, I see the point of your choices and all is clear now. [:)]




Blind Sniper -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/27/2013 5:07:26 PM)

Ciao Symon,

about Australian brigade magic movement was my fault, it is still there. Wrongly I though that enemy ground units in the same hex with friendly units cannot hide to me...they can [8|]

Sorry




traskott -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/28/2013 12:05:13 PM)

This is a bit OT but I can't finde the file for Scen B of TheIronBabes v4. There is no link at the web? Where can I find it? thanks.




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/28/2013 5:58:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: traskott
This is a bit OT but I can't finde the file for Scen B of TheIronBabes v4. There is no link at the web? Where can I find it? thanks.

Find it here: https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/4-baironbabes/daironbabes-b

File is named IronBabes_B_AEScen030_v04a.zip and you have to go all the way over to the right of the line and click on the red down-arrow.

Ciao [:)] JWE




traskott -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/28/2013 6:09:37 PM)

OMH, I have a phone on that side of the monitor, which hide the arrow... [:o][:o]




witpqs -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (1/28/2013 7:06:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: traskott
This is a bit OT but I can't finde the file for Scen B of TheIronBabes v4. There is no link at the web? Where can I find it? thanks.

Find it here: https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/4-baironbabes/daironbabes-b

File is named IronBabes_B_AEScen030_v04a.zip and you have to go all the way over to the right of the line and click on the red down-arrow.

Ciao [:)] JWE

Having run into that issue myself on the Babes web site (I guess it's just specific to Google Sites web pages), I added a colored notice line to the bottom of the page on the Intel Monkey site to try and head it off.

[image]local://upfiles/14248/00C0AF118F794F8D86ADF10F1D6152F0.jpg[/image]




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/1/2013 7:22:45 PM)

Thanks. Good idea. I'll have Mo do that.

Am learning a major lesson. It's all well and good to have a perfect OOB, and perfect arrival times and arrival locations, but the AI don't care jack squat about how pretty the database is, it's just looking for things according to it's instructions. And it's instruction set is limited. Woof!!!

And then Sam Natalionis chimes in with some extra bases he's done for the '42 Op SF scenario, and convinced me that they need to be inlcuded. So there's Segi Point (111:135) and Choiseul Bay (111:132) in the Solomons; Pongani (100:130) and Wanigela (101:132) in Papua. All these make sense in terms of the operational/tactical nature of the scenario.

Ok, so every time I think I'm getting a handle on this, I get pitched a slider. But so far so good, still at bat. Found some really hateful, Andy Mac'ish things to do.

Ciao JWE




Andy Mac -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/1/2013 10:14:58 PM)

My biggest annoyance was adding new bases

I annoyed everyone with that one

Every time someone wanted to add a base I had to say no during development

We knew we wanted to add more but editing the ai scripts for them each time would have been impossible.

It's why in some places we have railways to no where because I had to say no more bases at some point when e map and oob folks wanted to add new ones

Painfully but necessary

It's good when you can add them in small scenarios because the ai can be amended. Which is why I added more bases on my battle of Burma scenario




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/1/2013 11:51:17 PM)

Andy, I know that very well. I have heard that enough for me to be a true believer. That's one reason I have been very, very judicious with any additions to any Babes GC scenarios.

Butt ... as you say, small scenarios can handle added bases, so long as the basic scen AI recognizes them, so it's a good opportunity to get tactical. Maybe if enough people make enough of these little things and enough people play them, the community will finally figure out how this game was meant to be played. Ya think?




DOCUP -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/2/2013 12:30:18 AM)

Been meaning to say welcome back JWE.  Just haven't done it.




berto -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/2/2013 7:24:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Maybe if enough people make enough of these little things and enough people play them, the community will finally figure out how this game was meant to be played.

+1




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/4/2013 8:32:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP
Been meaning to say welcome back JWE.  Just haven't done it.

Thank you kindly. Anyway, put some new bases into NZ for the scenario. Not that they mean anything tactically, just because I like NZ and wanted to see it righteous. Will vet them with DivePac88 so I don't do something stoopid. On North Island, we got Gisborne, Napier, Wanganui, New Plymouth, and Tauranga. Not so much on South Island, because it's truncated on the game map.

Figure these in with the new bases in the Solomons and on Papua, and you get some nice stuff that's useful in a strategic/tactical sense in the scenario. Much of the NZ units are restricted, but some did good work, and you will find them available when they became so. No 3 Sqdn RNZAF performed yeoman service for the Cactus Airforce from 11/42 on.

Ciao JWE




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/8/2013 9:19:05 PM)

Ok, I'm done. The AI does wierd things and does not follow scripts and is not something we can count on.

Have several units that are defensive units for every single script, but somehow have fragments of their Sup squads invading somewhere else. This has happened with many units that are "DEFINITEVLY" posted to a base. And then, Eng units (not BF units) with AvSup of 6, are magically transformed into units with OOB of 42!!

This crap is indefensible. We will no longer support the AI, and direct Babes scenarios to H2H and PBEM players only.

JWE

Probably good news to Sam Natali, because he's been waiting for a take on the AI before he releases his '42 scenario. Okey, dokey, no Babes scenario will ever play with the AI, except for BabesLite.




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/10/2013 6:33:57 PM)

Jeez, do I have egg on my face. Natali smacked me up side of the head, showed me what I was doing wrong and how to do it right.

I lost sight of my major hot button; that all the units in all the files should have internal self consistency. That was the cause of all the wierd fragments going every which way. The other thing was all those APs and AKs in the assault TFs. The AI would often just disband them in Lunga or Tulagi, and offer up a nice Leg 'o Lamb for Rabaul Nettys.

Butt ... most of those 'A' type transports were withdrawn soon after the Guad Op, but the scenario keeps them in play, just because they were there on opening day and there's no way to force withdrawals in a small map scenario. So ... redo start date to Aug 8 and have the units already on the beach. Assume the transports are already running away. Put the few of them that did stay in theater in TFs in mid ocean heading for rear area bases like Suva or Pago Pago, or Wellington. The others get introduced when they returned to the SoPac Theater. So not too many 'A' types in the early days.

That's kinda important (in AI terms) because it's a race for Tassafaronga between the Marines and Japanese reinforcement convoys. Played this out many times and find (statistically) the Japanese arrive first. So far so good. US units are short of supply, fatigued, and there's not enough of them to definitivly hold Lunga/Tulagi while going after Tassafaronga.

That's what I wanted, but the stupid AI wasn't being cooperative until Sam lit the lamp. Ok, trying it again. Woof!!

JWE




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/11/2013 5:35:21 PM)

As the rising sun illuminates the dawn on Aug 9, Savo Sound is a scene of devastation. Marines from 1st MarDiv have landed on Guadalcanal and Tulagi/Gavutu, and while the Lunga landings were unopposed, Tulagi/Gavutu was a more established base with a garrison of combat troops and heavy fighting is continuing.

Overnight, a scratch force of cruisers and a lone destroyer, assembled at Rabaul under VAdm Mikawa Guichi in response to the landings, savaged the Allied forces covering the northern and southern entrances to the Sound about Savo Island. Cruisers Quincy and Vincennes are sunk, Canberra is dead in the water and burning fiercely from two torpedo and 24 shell hits, Astoria is in similar condition with 65 shell hits; neither is expected to survive the morning hours. Chicago’s bow is blown off and destroyers Patterson and Ralph Talbot are heavily damaged. Meanwhile, George F Elliott is a burning hulk onshore from air attacks the previous day.

Frank Jack Fletcher’s carrier forces left the area the evening before and are making for Suva for replenishment. They are low on fuel and have suffered almost 18% losses in the various CAGs due to operations over the previous several days.

RAdm Turner makes herculean efforts to unload some of the remaining supplies, but the transports, without air or surface support, must retire, leaving the Marines with what few supplies have been landed, and what they captured at the Lunga location.

The scenario begins at 0700, 9 Aug, 1942. With the smell of burning fuel oil in the air, and the pillars of smoke and flame, from their valiant but ravaged protectors, tormenting the horizon like an evil cancer portending ominous things to come, the Marines watch the transports, still carrying much of their precious supplies, assemble and turn their bows toward Sealark Channel.

With the dark and brooding jungle, ripe with life and decay, at their backs, and the sounds of the final clean-up of Tulagi/Gavutu rolling over the water, the Marines on Guadalcanal Island realize they are on their own, in an environment that makes Louisiana look like Central Park.

Operation “Shoestring” has begun.




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/11/2013 6:31:56 PM)

Redid the Scen according to the above paradigm, and Holy Shimoly, it works! There is a hiatus of 12 days to get ships back to port and CVs to get refueled, and bears, oh my! It takes time for Lunga units to march to Tassafaronga , and scheduled Japanese reinforcements can arrive sooner (whew). There’s not enough strength on Lunga to take Tassafaronga without denuding Lunga to where a serious J assault can’t take it, so we’re back to the IRL campaign.

Only question is, does Japan reinforce enough to go on the offensive, or only enough to make Tassafaronga a severely hard place to take, that consumes Allied units, while Japan builds elsewhere? The world wonders.

I know the operational release dates of most Japanese units, from Senshi Sosho. Also know the background rationales of their release, so can “fudge” things according to circumstances without violating either historicity or Wiccan Virgins.




Symon -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/11/2013 6:34:21 PM)

Several pitfalls have been built into this scenario. Many units are available in OZ and NewCal on opening day because that’s where they were. A human player can assemble them, and sufficient transport, to radically accelerate the pace of operations in the Solomons/new Guinea. This is understood, so the timing of the Victory Conditions for both sides has been adjusted accordingly.

Notwithstanding, those US divisional units available on opening day have massively modified experience and morale numbers. They are adaptively targeted to their present locations, so as soon as they hit 100% they will begin to train-up to nominal levels. Before that, they are useable, but will be crushed by highly experienced IJA units. So use them at once, and get them slaughtered, or wait a bit and get them trained up enough to hold their own once they are committed to combat. Do I hear anybody saying IRL? But your call.

Yippee Kai Yay [8D]




henry1611 -> RE: Back by Popular Demand (2/12/2013 7:12:24 PM)

Lest you think your persistence and enthusiasm goes unnoticed, it does not. I, for one, much appreciate it. I am in the middle of Frank's Guadalcanal and am really looking forward to this version of the scenario.

Henry




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