Manhay Massacre (Full Version)

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altipueri -> Manhay Massacre (1/8/2013 10:16:11 PM)

Thanks Phoenix. Just when I thought I could have a productive day working at home I awarded myself a quick morning break to try Manhay. I was so crap so many times I've been sent to the Eastern Front. Don't you dare post a victory screen.

altipueri -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/9/2013 9:25:16 PM)

Ok, I give up. Tried it a dozen times on a variety of settings and the best I got was a draw.

If Phoenix can't get a win then I'm not surprised at my performance and it seems to illustrate something I've said to other wargame companies - e.g AGEOD.

Namely, you make the games too darn difficult for newcomers because you think that to do otherwise would be seen as "dumbing down"; and then wonder why you don't get huge sales. In my view "realistic" and "hard" can be as hard as you want to make it but if a game isn't attractive to newcomers then you are cutting out a huge part of the market.

The question is - Can I be bothered to try any of the other scenarios? If Hofen and Manhay are representative, then probably not.

wodin -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/9/2013 9:48:15 PM)

Battered Bastards is a great scenario..Manhay I believe is one of the tough ones.

Maybe you need to change your approach to the games and just enjoy them win or lose? I do.

Why not use easier settings like no command delay?

Making the games easy to win isn't going to get more customers..infact you'll lose your main base for this type of game. Games like this appeal to the more grognard type who want realism over easy and winning all the time.

You maybe more suited to games like Conflict Of heroes or Panzer general.

Arjuna -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/9/2013 10:40:44 PM)


How did you go with the tutorial?

Wodin is right Manhay is a tough fight. I recommend you try Battle of the Roadblocks and then it's larger brother Race for Bastogne.

wodin -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/9/2013 11:01:16 PM)

I second what Dave recommends. You chose a really tough one with regards to Manhay.

altipueri -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/9/2013 11:23:17 PM)

Aaargh.. Arjuna you got in just in time. I was going to write a really tart reply to Wodin along the lines of "OK, I'm too stupid to be a customer", and you come in with a diplomatic statement like that.

I did do the tutorial before trying Hofen and Manhay (and read or at least skimmed) the manual and I thought: hmmm.. arranging the timing of barrages to a within a few minutes might not be my idea of delegation, but let's see.

I think I posted elsewhere along the lines of the fact that you've done the hard work in making an AI that does a "reasonable job" and that refining the breed of horse used by German artillery (or routing behaviour as seems to be a current thread) is possibly less important than increasing sales. (Marginal return on effort expended etc.)

Anyway, I'd better try Battle of the Roadblocks next.

Thanks again for the kind reply.

wodin -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 12:06:31 AM)

Alti..I think you've read my reply the wrong way..I certainly wasn't making out your stupid at all. If you read my reply I did say I lose often myself I just except it and it certainly doesn't make me want to give up nor do I see it as some sort of problem with the game that needs changing.

Again as usual with forums with no body language nor tone of voice it's difficult to work out how someone is saying something. I think alot of people expect people to be snide or offhand, but thats not me and if I ever am I soon apologise;) I'm glad you didn't write a tart reply, otherwise I'd have thought you where being off with me for no reason..I re read my post and I'm not sure how you thought it was someone being off with you to be honest, then again I know how I meant it.

Phoenix100 -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 8:05:16 AM)

Lol, Alti. Sorry I recommended Manhay. I thnk it's a great scenario, but I did warn you that I've never won it. I'm sure there are people who can win it though. I wasn't so bothered about not winning (Axis didn't win in real life either), just seeing how far I could get. You can win it if you play as Allies. It's still a challenge then, believe it or not, but you can win.

Battle of the Roadblocks, by the way, is another scenario I've found hard to win (as Allies) - though Wodin might not have that problem - he's far more expoerienced than I. If you play it as Axis you would stand a better chance.

I think they're nearly all very hard scenarios, to be honest, with lots of scope for 'learning'. The only one in BFTB that I've found reasonably easy is Hell of Wheels Counter-Attack (as Allies). That's a nice armoured fight where you will win quite quickly, probably.

Myself, I get very bored if I can just have a go at it first time and win immediately. I like it the way it is - with the challenge. I'm sure I could have a go at Manhay one day and get there. I've come close by siphoning off an exit force during the first night - an Inf company, an Armoured company and some mortars will do it, i think - then sending that in secret, very fast, up the back roads to the Erezee exit. There's a window in the early hours where the Exit opens and no allied reinforcements are there. If you get that group exited in that window then 17 points, more or less. You have to do without them in other key places for the rest of the battle,. But if you hold the rear objectives with base units etc, and make sure you occupy the crossroads and Grandmenil through to the end, I think you will get a win. Tempted?

If you play it as allies first you will aquire masses of black intelligence about arrival of reinforcements etc. That's cheating, of course. But just pretend you had a super network of infiltrated agents (or that the Grief thing worked, plus....)

Don't give up on it. It's the only game of this sort out there with an AI that can get you like this.

wodin -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 8:16:52 AM)

phoenix..a massive thanks for the confidence but sadly misplaced;) I maybe experienced but I've never been a good player be it any game wargame or FPS. Your most likely loads better than I am my friend.

I shied away from big scenarios but I found Battered bastards from the Axis side great fun and easy to work out roughly where to attack etc etc. Also not on the difficult side (well I'm going back to the initial release here though).

I will also say when COTA exp pack comes out you get a better mix of large and small scenarios and I feel they are more newbie friendly. Arty isn't as strong and better terrain to move around on. Plus German paratroopers, whats not to love.

altipueri -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 8:24:55 AM)

Phoenix, my best result was with a plan like that. A quick sprint to Erezee exit area to stop stuff coming in that way.

Also, I found no need to immediately attack the US on the road direct to Manhay, but go through the middle.

As you say, black intelligence, in my case got from playing the US. It got to the point where I just wanted to see if I could win as the Axis.

I agree that easy wins get boring. But so do defeats. The great advantage of computer games is that a power setting or combat modifier should enable every player to tailor the game to their likeness. I like it where it is about fifty fifty whether I win or lose because that means each time there's a bit of concentration required.

PS have you tried Go yet?

wodin -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 8:33:17 AM)

Alti another thing with wargames like this is that they are historical which means less likely to be balanced..Setting no command delay and giving your side or the enemies different reinforcements is the how the game gives the player options to make it easier or more difficult.

altipueri -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 8:59:35 AM)

Hearts of Iron and Europa Universalis forum debates often bring this up. Too much historical and you get no variation, too much fantasy and you get small states winning WW2.

Where possible the ability to change things to your own liking is a great advantage of PC games.

Phoenix100 -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 9:03:19 AM)

Go? Not yet. Will though.

I do get very bored with chess (against the computer) as I lose invariably.

Go through the middle (of Grandmenil and the Crossroads). Interesting. Never tried that. Did it work? Did you get the objective above the crossroads?

altipueri -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 2:03:22 PM)

With Chessmaster you can set the level to match nearly certain official rankings. But also everything from beginner to grand master. It then has a number of "individuals" with different playing characteristics. I play at about the level of an eight year old with learning difficulties. My version of Chessmaster is 10th edition - I think (or read) that later ones introduced some unwelcome changes. It's only about $10; less in a bargain bin if you can find such a thing these days.

I've just driven a few hours down from the north of England - walking on Hellvellyn yesterday, no important work emails have arrived - so I'd better try those damn crossroads again.

Phoenix100 -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 3:22:02 PM)

Hellvellyn. I'm jealous. Last time I was up there (up Hellvellyn, I mean) was 1986. We were worried about drinking the stream water (above 2,000ft) because of Chernobyl....We slogged up with full kit and disgusting dehydrated rations, to camp the night later on, and on the way to the top passed an Indian family, kids from 3 to 10 (dressed like they'd all had a walk on Brighton beach) with a complete indian feast laid out on a picnic blanket in a sheep shelter, pops, chutneys, biryanis, meat and veg curries, nans, the lot. Was even more jealous then.

Looked at Go. Downloaded a free version. Looks complicated and interesting (40 million, mainly Asian, play it, I read - ignorant me, I'd never heard of it....). Doesn't immediately appeal as it reminds me of a sophisticated noughts and crosses at the moment. No doubt you have to get out of thinking about it like that to appreciate it. It's in principle solveable, however, just like chess - just too many variations for present computing power, forcing the computers to have to be set up to read patterns as humans have to. That makes it more appealling - you're right (to play against a computer, at any rate). Might give it a Go....

I play chess on either Fritz or Shredder - both are scaleable, and if I scale them so their ranking is lower than mine I can win, but it feels silly because they make obvious and stupid blunders. Feels like playing your dad and he lets you win and that's obvious (though my own dad never did). Prefer to play against humans, obviously.

Would rather play Command Ops than any other game, really. Having some fun with Achtung Panzer: Op Star, but the AI isn't quite like Command Ops (though it's the best, imho, for that type of tactical game). The best thing is playing command Ops multiplayer - head to head, I mean. Great fun. Seriously. Will get round to that again when the patch is finalised and attacks are sorted.

wodin -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 5:25:04 PM)


ORIGINAL: altipueri

Hearts of Iron and Europa Universalis forum debates often bring this up. Too much historical and you get no variation, too much fantasy and you get small states winning WW2.

Where possible the ability to change things to your own liking is a great advantage of PC games.

Thats why we have ahistorical scenarios or different reinforcement make the scenario easier for one side or another but it is no longer historical. Grand Strat games are a different beast to grand tactical and operational games which a mass majority want to be historical otherwise you could be fighting the battle anywhere.

altipueri -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 9:13:45 PM)

Finally got several marginal victories on easy settings and with multiple re-loads.

What a way to spend a day that should have been used to keep the UK economy going.

Phoenix100 -> RE: Manhay Massacre (1/10/2013 9:20:10 PM)

Well done. I might have to try.

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