RE: Stalingrad (Full Version)

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Klydon -> RE: Stalingrad (1/9/2013 3:46:49 AM)

Germans provided their allies with a lot of captured equipment when it came to tanks and AT guns, but it was second rate at best. The other issue with captured equipment is that ammo is generally pretty limited and once you run out, there probably isn't a whole lot more depending on what you are talking about.




timmyab -> RE: Stalingrad (1/9/2013 3:54:38 AM)

Spain was neutral.I would guess that the Spanish division was all volunteer.
Hitler tried hard to get Franco on board, I think he even considered invading Spain at one point.It certainly would have been a bitter blow for Britain if the straits had been closed.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalingrad (1/9/2013 4:04:33 AM)


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ORIGINAL: Footslogger


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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


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ORIGINAL: Footslogger

The Italians, Hungarians, and others that joined Hitler were poorly equiped. Did any of Hitler's generals say that the 'axis minors' were not ready for war? I do remember Mussolini telling Hitler that he would not be ready for war for another 7 years. Did the Germans try to equip their allies with better weapons?


I remember reading that to import iron ore from Sweden (vital for the Reich) the Germans had to pay with er... weapons (and this when they were badly needed) [8D]

One of the well armed allies were possibly the Spanish Division (250th Div IIRC, in total 50.000 men). But technically the division was part of the Wehrmacht.

I don't think the Germans could have afforded all this armament to arm ALL their allies. But it is true that I can't back up this with any source.


Curious: If the 250th Spanish Div was available, could it have been used on Gilbralter? (pardon my spelling)



In theory yes.

But Franco wanted to avoid the war. His tactic: he made (to Hitler) irrational demands that the Germans (or anyone else for that matter) would / could never accept [:D]

They all were volunteers. But I have heard that even old enemies (Republicans) made it to the division. They were forced into the unit that is.

Hardened veterans (3 years of Civil War) and really high morale (the anti-Bolshevik crusade thing).




SigUp -> RE: Stalingrad (1/9/2013 4:12:11 AM)


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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


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ORIGINAL: Footslogger


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ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
I remember reading that to import iron ore from Sweden (vital for the Reich) the Germans had to pay with er... weapons (and this when they were badly needed) [8D]

One of the well armed allies were possibly the Spanish Division (250th Div IIRC, in total 50.000 men). But technically the division was part of the Wehrmacht.

I don't think the Germans could have afforded all this armament to arm ALL their allies. But it is true that I can't back up this with any source.


Curious: If the 250th Spanish Div was available, could it have been used on Gilbralter? (pardon my spelling)



In theory yes.

But Franco wanted to avoid the war. His tactic: he made (to Hitler) irrational demands that the Germans (or anyone else for that matter) would / could never accept [:D]

They all were volunteers. But I have heard that even old enemies (Republicans) made it to the division. They were forced into the unit that is.

Hardened veterans (3 years of Civil War) and really high morale (the anti-Bolshevik crusade thing).

They got in the Republicans through such prospects like releasing family members or so if they participated, which a few did. But overall the Spanish had little problems of filling the division with volunteers, especially Falangists. These people had not forgotten against whom they fought in the civil war a few years prior.

In case of Gibraltar, the division couldn't have been used. It was explicitly stated that the 250th ID could only be used against the Soviet Union.

Regarding that import thing, Germany had a massive shortage of currency, even before the war started. So they practically engaged in barter. Germany even sent weapons to the Soviet Union to balance their account in their trades.




Offworlder -> RE: Stalingrad (1/9/2013 5:20:14 PM)

The Blue Division was also a repository for the most fanatical of the Phalangists - once I read that Franco deliberately sent them to Russia to die off because they were too extreme and would have alienated the rest of the population. It should be noted that even when he actually withdrew them from the front, a legion remained behind to continue the fight. It was also withdrawn eventually. However, the division aquitted itself well and frankly in game it should be rated as almost elite, but that's only my opinion.

Regarding Spanish neutrality, keep in mind that Franco was fascist by western definition - more of a hardened nationalist in reality. I mean, how can one actually reconcile the fact that he was a devout churchgoer with fascism which was essentially an atheist creed? Having said that, Spain was in the throes of reconstruction and was heavily dependent upon American money (he had quite some supporters across the Atlantic), oil and other stuff (including food). However, despite making impossible demands he also sugared the pill by giving the produce of Spanish mines to the Germans, especially wolfram, as long as he shared a border with Hitler and as long as he was seen as winning. in reality, he had no other option - with a divided and devastated homeland, he would have been barking mad to even venture into the war, aside from the fact that at the begining, he actually shared the border with the strongest military power in the Allied camp - France.  

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Klydon
Germans provided their allies with a lot of captured equipment when it came to tanks and AT guns, but it was second rate at best. The other issue with captured equipment is that ammo is generally pretty limited and once you run out, there probably isn't a whole lot more depending on what you are talking about.


In fact I was wondering about this from a game perspective. If I'm not mistaken, the bulk of Finnish tanks were actually refurbished soviet tanks which were handed over. Also a lot of French weapons were handed over as well. In both cases, the Reich produced limited runs of ammo and in the French case, spare parts for these weapon systems. It is also interesting that they also kept Czech tank factories churning out their reliable designs which they exported quite extensively to Hungary and Rumania.




Flaviusx -> RE: Stalingrad (1/9/2013 7:05:09 PM)

Franco was really an old fashioned Spanish caudillo, a type that predates fascism and has little to do with it. Not a nice guy, he wanted to crack skulls and restore Spanish glory and unity as he understood it. But the idea that he was in any sense a modern fascist along the lines of Mussolini let alone Hitler is essentially a myth created by people who do not understand Spain. He was in the final analysis a monarchist and also a highly conservative Roman Catholic. Deeply reactionary, to be sure, but this shouldn't be confused with fascism per se.





Footslogger -> RE: Stalingrad (1/9/2013 9:45:48 PM)


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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Franco was really an old fashioned Spanish caudillo, a type that predates fascism and has little to do with it. Not a nice guy, he wanted to crack skulls and restore Spanish glory and unity as he understood it. But the idea that he was in any sense a modern fascist along the lines of Mussolini let alone Hitler is essentially a myth created by people who do not understand Spain. He was in the final analysis a monarchist and also a highly conservative Roman Catholic. Deeply reactionary, to be sure, but this shouldn't be confused with fascism per se.





As you have stated, Franco was unwilling to invade Gilbratar. But if Hitler put pressure on him, to allow German Troops to (afe passage through Spain) travel there, is that possible?




Klydon -> RE: Stalingrad (1/9/2013 11:34:22 PM)

I can't remember which book it was (Guderian or Von Manstein) but in it, they mentioned they had been friends with some of the Spanish generals before the war and had contact with them during the war. The Spanish generals were friendly, but made it quite clear the Germans would be resisted if they came into Spanish territory.

In Hitler's eyes, it got the point it was not really that important. Closing Gibraltar would not significantly hurt the British and cause them to quit the war. Should the Germans win the coming battle of Britain and either force the British out of the war or get a negotiated settlement, then it didn't matter.




warspite1 -> RE: Stalingrad (1/12/2013 9:49:43 PM)


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ORIGINAL: SigUp

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ORIGINAL: warspite1


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ORIGINAL: Footslogger

When things were going so well for the Gemans, what went wrong at Stalingrad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6thQKSNBSo
warspite1

They weren't - have a read of Ostkrieg. The Germans were in big trouble before they launched the operation that culminated in Stalingrad. For the operation itself (Operation Blau) essentially the Wehrmacht had too much in the way of objectives and too little army to achieve them.

Blau went wrong almost from the start. Remember, to allow Blue to happen, Army Group's North and Centre were stripped of much men and equipment. When the attack started the Russians retreated, rather than allow themselves to be surrounded and gobbled up by Army Group South's pincers. Then, as the German supply line got longer, the Germans needed to use satellite troops - Italians, Hungarians and Romanians to man the flanks. The troops sucked into the fighting at Stalingrad were therefore ripe for a counter-attack. Hitler also split the Army Group so that a portion moved into the Caucasus. The army available for this job too just weren't strong enough to come even close to success.


The first part is a myth.

warspite1

What is a myth? [&:]




SigUp -> RE: Stalingrad (1/13/2013 12:21:32 AM)

That Fall Blau was a disaster from the very beginning and that the Soviets executed a planned retreat. As stated in my post, the first phase of Fall Blau was very successful and in the mid-July weeks the Soviets retreat was more like a panicked rout. Sorry for not being clear enough.




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