Maybe a not so easy ID. Will a bigger pic help? (Full Version)

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fodder -> Maybe a not so easy ID. Will a bigger pic help? (12/11/2012 2:30:21 PM)

Here's one I've had my eye on for sometime. An ID should be real quick here. I've been thinking of adding this one to my mod. If any of you know where I can find good stats for this aircraft, please let me know.

Thanks.



[image]local://upfiles/34736/7FD914056C1D4F52A8C4F4F848FDBE66.jpg[/image]



fodder -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 2:34:49 AM)

Interesting, very interesting. Twelve hours and over a hundred views later and no one has ID this one. Not even a single guess. Pics for this plane are very rare, I only have two and this is the best one. My snip pic above is kinda fuzzy, how about I blow it up to show more detail. Maybe that will spark something in some ones head.



[image]local://upfiles/34736/DFFDCFA37061495C8841EEBDB240FB12.jpg[/image]



jcjordan -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 3:05:41 AM)

Well tailhook says IJN & only thing to me it says Aichi Val family so my guess would be Aichi D3Y Myojo but the straight wings not bent wings get me



fodder -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 3:17:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

Well tailhook says IJN & only thing to me it says Aichi Val family so my guess would be Aichi D3Y Myojo but the straight wings not bent wings get me


You kinda ruled out your own guess here, but to make it offical.

Sorry, it's not the Aichi D3Y Myojo.



Chris H -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 9:36:13 AM)

Is it the D4Y3 type 33 Suisei?



SenToku -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 10:10:59 AM)

Early black/white colour-scheme, so not a late war model, say 1939-1942. The telescopic sight says either early fighter or a dive bomber, but retractable landing gear doesn't fit any carrier fighter models I know. D3 trial plane? Nakajima D3N?



btbw -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 10:56:16 AM)

Nakajima D3N1 experimental 11-Shi carrier dive bomber.
Designer Ryozo Yamamoto.
Engine Hikari-1 (Max power 820HP 3,400m).
MTOW:3,400kg, Wing span:14.5m, Overall length:8.8m, Wing area:34m2, Max speed:352km/h(3,000m), Range:1,519km.
3 planes were manufactured and 1 was survived till the end of the war.



fodder -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 1:01:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Is it the D4Y3 type 33 Suisei?


Sorry, not the D4Y3 type 33 Suisei.



fodder -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 1:03:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Early black/white colour-scheme, so not a late war model, say 1939-1942. The telescopic sight says either early fighter or a dive bomber, but retractable landing gear doesn't fit any carrier fighter models I know. D3 trial plane? Nakajima D3N?


VERY GOOD, it is the Nakajima D3N. [:)]



fodder -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 2:29:48 PM)

In 1936, the Japanese navy issued the 11-Shi specification for a new dive bomber. Aichi, Nakajima and Mitsubishi all submitted designs. This was not a fair competition, Aichi received German designs and technology paid for by the government. It was quickly realized that the Aichi design would not meet the range and payload requirements. So the navy lowered these requirements so the Aichi design could meet them. Then once it had taken to the air the Aichi D3A exceeded the dive speed requirement. The navy then changed the dive speed requirement to match what the D3A could do. At this point
Mitsubishi gave up and withdrew from the competition. Nakajima stayed in there and attached dive brakes almost identical to those on the Dauntlass to their D3N. It did no good.

In the end the navy gave the contract to Aichi, stating that their design was simpler and cheaper. The navy never said it was a better design.

With all the damage that the Japanese did with the D3A "VAL". Imagine if they started the war with a dive bomber that was faster, had a longer range and twice the payload of the VAL.

I'm looking for good stats for the Nakajima D3N1. What little info I can find in english contradicts each other. All the web sites that I've found that contain a lot of information on this aircraft are in Japanese. Web translators do not work well with Japanese. Any help anyone can give me to get good information on the D3N1 would be greatly appreciated.



SenToku -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/12/2012 9:34:36 PM)

Was D3N really faster? And was it VAL that exeeded the dive speed limit?

I thought D3N suffered from complex and fragile systems in retractable landing gear and dive breaks and exesive speed in diving - as Nakajima had just modified C3N1 recon plane and not built an entirely new project. Not to mention the engine of even second prototype D3N1 was still the Nakajima Hikari serie 1 Kai, with output just over 800 hp. Aichi also had same engine with the first prototype, but 2nd prototype (all trials were done by building two prototypes) had Mitsubishi Kinsei mounted and that version was almost 100 kph faster than D3N1 and other problems of Aichi D3A were pretty much eliminated by this point, while D3N was still exeeding the speed limit and had even greater stability problems than Aichi. Also the landing gear was not deemed strong enough for carrier use. Only problem with D3A1 was stability, which was corrected in production model.

Also, the ranges were the same. About 1500 km (Aichi just under, Nakajima just over). Armament and max load were pretty much equal 250 kg bomb was standard on both, so D3N did not have heavier payload.

In game terms Nakajima D3N1 would be 50-60 mph slower, with about same cruise speed and possibly add one hex to range (at least max range). Bomb load the same (supposedly 2 or 3 7.7 mm machineguns, not sure if there is trainable rear gun in D3N). Engine used was Ha-31 in IJAA 1943 standard names and ceiling would be only 23'000 against D3A1's 30'000.



fodder -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/13/2012 3:50:07 AM)

Not limit, requirement. The original dive speed requirement was 249KPH. With all it's drag the D3A dove at a speed of only 200KPH. Thus eceeding (superior, better than) the requirement.





SenToku -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/13/2012 7:23:31 AM)

Isn't the point of dive bombers to dive as slowly as possible? That is why they carry dive breaks you know, so they don't get too fast while diving. I see it that the dive speed was max speed and D3N went over due bad design. After all, both planes were ranked at max speed of 350 km/h, so if they dove at 250, they were not diving at max speed.

Also finally located the original Aichi D3A 11-Shi first prototype (Hikari engined) preformance data from net. It seems the Aichi had 1800 km range with Hikari but had same ceiling and max speed as Nakajima (about 350 km/h, Aichi with Kinsei 450 km/h). Actually D3A ceiling seems bit inferior to D3N, about 19'000.



koniu -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/13/2012 7:48:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Isn't the point of dive bombers to dive as slowly as possible?

Opposite i think. Goal is to dive as fast as passable with compromise to dive stability and without killing pilot in process. Faster dive speed = better punch made by bomb and plane is harder to hit by flak.

Dive brakes are there for slowing down plane after bomb was relised. Without them bomber will just crash in see.

Some time ago i watch tv show about Junkers Ju 87 Stuka. German pilots where saying that
dive breaks not start working until bomb was relised, bomber dive to fast, minimal safe attitude was achieved or pilot intervention. When one of first tree where true dive brakes start working automatically without pilot intervention. In most cases when dive brakes start working they temporary losing ability so see anything because blood have didiculies to be pomp by heart to head.



SenToku -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/13/2012 8:43:22 AM)

Douglas SBD had max speed of 255 mph and thanks to sturdy structure, the dive breaks limited the speed on 65-75 decree dive to 250 mph (source; USN training guides of the time). If it had "free dived" it could have gone faster, but it would have been too fast, reducing accuracy, making it impossible to pull out of the dive or even exeeded the structiral limits of the craft, tearing the plane apart.

As for Stuka, it was "class of its own" as allied test pilots said. The dive speed was limited by the breaks to 600 km/h (375 mph) and dive was true vertical, 90 decrees. Also, the dive was automated, meaning once the pilot pulled the "dive" lever, the plane would roll over, open the dive breaks and dive 90 decreees no matter what. Once bomb was released, it would close the breaks and pull out on automatic, with 6 g's worth. So, NO the dive breaks had nothing to do with the loss of vision in Stuka. They were there to prevent the speed to build up on dive and were closed while plane pulled up -> pull up from 375 mph dive caused the g-forces -> loss of vision or as stuka pilots said; "Seeing stars". Had the speed being more than 600 km/h (ie. without dive breaks), the pull out g's would have grown and pilot would not only had the "grey-out" but would have actually been incapacited. So stuka was really tuned to the very human limits of dive bombing.

Bottom line; Dive breaks are there to limit the dive speed during dive. Free diving would be faster, but also less accurate, more stressfull on pull out and worst case scenario; could break plane appart. Thus all dive bombers, Stuka included have max dive speeds, governed by their dive breaks.



koniu -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/13/2012 9:20:30 AM)

Maybe i was no accurate enough.
I know that dive breaks slowed down plane but not because slower is better, but because You do not want destroy plane and kill pilot in process and You need to keep decent accuracy.

If they can they will probably build dive bomber diving 400mph or faster but they have no technology for that in that time and i do not want to be pilot of that plane without anti-g suit like pilots have today
As always it is compromise between speed, accuracy and survivability.





fodder -> RE: Easy ID, Looking for stats. (12/13/2012 2:02:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Isn't the point of dive bombers to dive as slowly as possible?


YES!

What we have here is falure to communicate.



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