HB hitting ships (Full Version)

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Chris H -> HB hitting ships (12/3/2012 11:45:25 AM)

Over past few turns I've had Forts out of Espiritu Santo successfully bombing ships in Tulagi, some as high as 17000ft. Three I lost in port attacks but three including a very small AMc from (17000), a DD (17000), and a CA (7000), were at sea. I thought the accuracy of HB attacking ships had been reduced or is it a house rule that is used to restrict HB attacking ships?




Oberst_Klink -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/3/2012 11:49:55 AM)

Chris,

not necessarily the case that a HB raid will cause constant direct hits on small vessels; debris, shrapnel, etc. can damage such small crafts considerably, too. However, how many small crafts per se are being sunk by direct hits? Any indication in the combat report files or the messages?

Klink, Oberst




Alfred -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/3/2012 12:34:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Over past few turns I've had Forts out of Espiritu Santo successfully bombing ships in Tulagi, some as high as 17000ft. Three I lost in port attacks but three including a very small AMc from (17000), a DD (17000), and a CA (7000), were at sea. I thought the accuracy of HB attacking ships had been reduced or is it a house rule that is used to restrict HB attacking ships?


No code changes have been introduced.

Many PBEM players demand a HR limiting operational use of HB against ships. Not everyone agrees with that approach.

Alfred




dr.hal -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/3/2012 2:52:06 PM)

Plus there is always a chance even if only 1%.... Look at the Bismark...




Chris H -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/3/2012 3:01:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred



quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Chris,

not necessarily the case that a HB raid will cause constant direct hits on small vessels; debris, shrapnel, etc. can damage such small crafts considerably, too. However, how many small crafts per se are being sunk by direct hits? Any indication in the combat report files or the messages?

Klink, Oberst



quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Over past few turns I've had Forts out of Espiritu Santo successfully bombing ships in Tulagi, some as high as 17000ft. Three I lost in port attacks but three including a very small AMc from (17000), a DD (17000), and a CA (7000), were at sea. I thought the accuracy of HB attacking ships had been reduced or is it a house rule that is used to restrict HB attacking ships?


No code changes have been introduced.

Many PBEM players demand a HR limiting operational use of HB against ships. Not everyone agrees with that approach.

Alfred


Four sunk in port attack, all at Tulagi, AMC, AG, AMc and anther one in a TF not docked as was the CA hit last turn. Its the later two at sea and the earlier DD hit at sea that is the problem. I can live with it against the AI.

That's what I thought but I'm playing the AI so I'll just have to put up with it for the time being, but will send some better fighters. Once I've sorted his carriers out in my current op I'll go and blat him.




cavalry -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/3/2012 9:48:16 PM)

Do not leave ships in port in range of any bomber if there is no CAP... He must have flown plenty of recon to get the DL up - if there is recon an attack is coming...
If there is CAP and or clouds then they will much more likley miss.




crsutton -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/3/2012 10:33:36 PM)

Well, the Japanese rarely based ships in Rabaul due to the threat of B17s from Port Morsby. May have not been a threat but they thought so. I bomb ports any time ships are docked there. However, I only use the PBY liberator for Naval Attack. We have a HR of 10,000 feet for any heavy bombers but the PBYs can bomb low as long as I don't base more than one on naval strike per base. Seems to work.

In 1,000 turns I have yet to use Army heavies on naval strike. No particular reason. They are just busy doing other things. And too easy to CAP trap when on naval strike.





btbw -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 3:48:05 AM)

Game engine written by genius in Probability theory. Right now game calculate chance to hit as sum of all bombs (bomb effects). More planes - more hits. Bigger bombs - more hits.
Somone must open eyes of that genius - probability to hit from swarm of HB dont SUMMING of individual chance of hits.




btbw -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 3:53:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Plus there is always a chance even if only 1%.... Look at the Bismark...

Bismark hitted by HB? Surprise for me!




Puhis -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 6:45:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Game engine written by genius in Probability theory. Right now game calculate chance to hit as sum of all bombs (bomb effects). More planes - more hits. Bigger bombs - more hits.
Somone must open eyes of that genius - probability to hit from swarm of HB dont SUMMING of individual chance of hits.


You are right about that. Bombers hit way too often. Lots of bombers make it really silly. But it's not going to change. So it's best just adapt...




Puhis -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 6:50:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Four sunk in port attack, all at Tulagi, AMC, AG, AMc and anther one in a TF not docked as was the CA hit last turn. Its the later two at sea and the earlier DD hit at sea that is the problem. I can live with it against the AI.


Port attacks always hit ships (at least if you have more than 10 of 15 bombers), no matter how big the port is and how few ships there is. Also usually bombers hit most valuable ship. It's the way game engine works.

So don't keep ships at port if you cannot defend the base.




btbw -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 7:01:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Game engine written by genius in Probability theory. Right now game calculate chance to hit as sum of all bombs (bomb effects). More planes - more hits. Bigger bombs - more hits.
Somone must open eyes of that genius - probability to hit from swarm of HB dont SUMMING of individual chance of hits.


You are right about that. Bombers hit way too often. Lots of bombers make it really silly. But it's not going to change. So it's best just adapt...

We adapt)




Alfred -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 11:37:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred



quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Chris,

not necessarily the case that a HB raid will cause constant direct hits on small vessels; debris, shrapnel, etc. can damage such small crafts considerably, too. However, how many small crafts per se are being sunk by direct hits? Any indication in the combat report files or the messages?

Klink, Oberst



quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Over past few turns I've had Forts out of Espiritu Santo successfully bombing ships in Tulagi, some as high as 17000ft. Three I lost in port attacks but three including a very small AMc from (17000), a DD (17000), and a CA (7000), were at sea. I thought the accuracy of HB attacking ships had been reduced or is it a house rule that is used to restrict HB attacking ships?


No code changes have been introduced.

Many PBEM players demand a HR limiting operational use of HB against ships. Not everyone agrees with that approach.

Alfred


Four sunk in port attack, all at Tulagi, AMC, AG, AMc and anther one in a TF not docked as was the CA hit last turn. Its the later two at sea and the earlier DD hit at sea that is the problem. I can live with it against the AI.

That's what I thought but I'm playing the AI so I'll just have to put up with it for the time being, but will send some better fighters. Once I've sorted his carriers out in my current op I'll go and blat him.


Have a read of this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3222808

it is the latest one of the many which deal with how to combat 4Es.

Aircraft attacking a port do not always hit anchored ships. The baseline is that there is a 50% chance that anchored ships will be targetted in a port attack. That base line is further reduced proportionally if there are fewer than 10 ships anchored.

Alfred




btbw -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 11:49:39 AM)

This reducing is very strange since port have different sizes. So better if chance to attack ships anchored in port depend from size of ships and port (tonnage compare of anchored ships and port max). Then hitting even swarm of lil ships like PTB will be rare.
Another aspect is bombload. Attack with 800kg AP dont give same area effect as 500kg GP bomb so raid on detected warship in port dont hurt also ships like AMc (or only 1 from 10 of them).
And last is ignorance of air raid tactics used during WW2 by HB.




guytipton41 -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 1:02:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Game engine written by genius in Probability theory. Right now game calculate chance to hit as sum of all bombs (bomb effects). More planes - more hits. Bigger bombs - more hits.
Somone must open eyes of that genius - probability to hit from swarm of HB dont SUMMING of individual chance of hits.



Hi btbw,

Can you point to the Ops Research to back your opinion? Maybe in fact it does come down to the number of bombs dropped.

Cheers,
Guy




HansBolter -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 5:27:05 PM)

I always love these kinds of "hey whats up?" questions.

The expectation that HBs will NEVER hit ships on Nav attack is simply unrealistic.

The reality is that they are truly not very good at it, especially when kept above the typical HR limit of 10,000 ft.

However, the extreme die roll can and will happen. These guys in his example hit from 17k. Good for them.

There was an historical inceident where a DD skipper scoffed at the notion of heavies ever hitting his ship and refused to maneuver....he was promptly hit!




mike scholl 1 -> RE: HB hitting ships (12/4/2012 9:23:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Game engine written by genius in Probability theory. Right now game calculate chance to hit as sum of all bombs (bomb effects). More planes - more hits. Bigger bombs - more hits.
Somone must open eyes of that genius - probability to hit from swarm of HB dont SUMMING of individual chance of hits.



I agree..., if you are talking about level bombing" Kate, Nells, and Bettys---which never hit anything IRL, but are deadly in the game. But of course, that's a "steaming pile" that works FOR the Japs, so it must be ignored. [8|]




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