Officially off the fence (Full Version)

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Bil H -> Officially off the fence (11/29/2012 5:07:04 PM)

I posted this in the AAR forum, but thought it should be repeated here:

I was on the fence with this game until I saw the first video (didn't need to see the second to make up my mind). This game looks like anything but accurate, nor does the map look appealing.

It looks a mess actually... here are a just a few of my complaints:

- evolutions like column to line are not accurate or realistic
- line formation form from the center, which is wrong and is a holdover from the earlier incarnations of this game - note that the flag in line is in the center of the formation and the line extends out from that center point.. the flag should be on the right (most times) and the formation should extend from there...
- marching through buildings (I assume this is because the buildings/soldiers scale is not 1:1 - walls and fences also do not seem to impede any advance in either line or column
- at one point the confederate skirmish line gave up its position behind the stone wall and advanced on and set up through the union line formation, forming an X with an enemy formation in line...
- formations (friendly or otherwise) should never intermingle and form an X with the two lines at angles to each other.

So I am firmly on the non-buying side of the fence for this game. Still looking for an accurate representation of tactical Civil War combat.


Norb -> RE: Officially off the fence (11/29/2012 10:42:17 PM)

Everyone has their own list about what it's takes to be an accurate game. I've heard many lists and most of them are very different. I'm the same way, so I understand. We focus very intently on certain aspects of the game, to make them as accurate as possible. But to do everything is a goal we haven't reached yet. Glad you did your research first, rather than buying and being disappointed.

2ndACR -> RE: Officially off the fence (11/29/2012 11:38:07 PM)

For what I have experienced playing the game, those issues are extremely minor. I have had my backside kicked by the AI more playing this game than all my others combined.

I figure these issues, and I have seen most of them too, will get fixed in due time.

mikeCK -> RE: Officially off the fence (11/30/2012 1:52:36 AM)

The perfect is the enemy of the good

This game has issues, but it is the best tactical simulator of black powder combat around. If you don't buy it because there are a few aesthetic problems, you are missing out on all it offers. But of.course, your money your choice.

I have owned every version of these games since the original history channel Take Command. Each has had hiccups along the way but each has also improved on the former version. Swinging lines in battle is annoying but Norb will fix it. Just seems a shame to get wrapped around the axle because columns change to lines from the center out instead of left to right.

Units marching through obstacles are impeded....their rate of movement is slowed.

The x issue is an annoyance but it occurs because the game sees the unit itself, not a collection of individual sprites. It is aesthetically annoying but has no impact on the combat calculations if I remember correctly

GBS -> RE: Officially off the fence (11/30/2012 11:37:12 AM)

The avatar of the OP is exactly what I imagine the OP looks like as he types the post. I am fortunate that I am not so smart that I can't have great fun with this game and I just can't stop playing it. Thanks Norb and rest assured that there are lots more people out here like me than the OP.

Bil H -> RE: Officially off the fence (11/30/2012 6:54:00 PM)

I apologize if my remarks were rather harsh, that was not he intent. I have done a lot of research into Civil War formation evolutions, even creating animations to help illustrate the difference between a right wheel and a right turn, and to show the transition from line to column, column to line, or transition to oblique, etc... so I guess I am a tad overly sensitive to that specific aspect of modeling movement in this time period. The manuals from before, during, and after the war can be hard to follow so I am not surprised that this isn't modeled.

This game is not meant to be a tactical game so perhaps at the end of the day none of that matters at all as far as movement and combat results are concerned.

I wish only the best for anybody who can take a complicated subject like this and create a playable game. I'm glad it works for most and I am sure that I am in the minority about what I am looking for.. I usually am when it comes to these types of games.

mikeCK -> RE: Officially off the fence (11/30/2012 11:30:36 PM)

I don't think you were harsh at was just you're opinion. You just have to understand that certain things appear to happen (column from center and crossing units) because of the way the computer sees things. This is a yacical simulation, which means where you deploy your units and how you make use of what is they look changing formation is just aesthetics. Just my opinion. If you can ignore the visual glitches, you will find an excellent tactical civil war simulation complete with annoying fellow AI generals to command delay and killed couriers who fail to deliver orders.

2ndACR -> RE: Officially off the fence (12/1/2012 2:16:09 AM)

After trying realistic with butt in saddle mode (that is what I call it) and having my head handed to me by the AI several times, I must say that the game is a winner. The AI is one of the best I have found. I am still a newb at the game, but I find most AI's lacking but this one is devious and I get a better feel for what the real commanders went thru. Heck I lost one battle because I got lost and never found the battlefield. LOL

Queeg -> RE: Officially off the fence (12/1/2012 6:17:02 AM)



You just have to understand that certain things appear to happen (column from center and crossing units) because of the way the computer sees things. This is a yacical simulation, which means where you deploy your units and how you make use of what is they look changing formation is just aesthetics.

I've complained about the formation glitches myself, but in doing some testing to come up with a save to send to Norb, it looks to me like the issue is mostly cosmetic. I had a game tonight where two of my regiments suddenly turned at right angles to an enemy. In both instances, the unit had two enemies, one directly in front and another off to the side, and the unit turned to face the more oblique enemy leaving it at a right angle to the main enemy to its front. Looked horrible and stupid. But in clicking on the unit, I realized that it was still targeting the main enemy unit - the unit to its original front - and I didn't see any clear indication that it was taking excessive flanking fire as a result of its turn. It looks to me like the turn was mostly cosmetic. And in both instances, my units stayed in that right-angle position for only a minute or so, then turned back to their original positions, apparently no worse for the experience.

So while this is frustrating as a matter of aesthetics, I'm hopeful that it's not a major gameplay issue.

Plan to send the save to Norb tomorrow.

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