The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (Full Version)

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rroberson -> The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (11/28/2012 3:46:48 PM)

I have a game that is now stretching to late 42 (yay!)and my opponent has just introduced a devastating weapon against me. The dreaded massed 4 Es. He has massed them to 100 plus plane raids and can just take out an airfield or port in a single day. I have felt this affect twice already and I am wondering is there any way what so ever to counter this. Zeros are ineffective against 4Es as I have long known and short of piling the AA into bases that are vulnerable I'm not sure what else can be done?

Any tips?

My biggest concern is I worked hard to set up New Cal as a nice base to interdict his shipping to Australia and he is using massed LB 30s to smash the airbases there. I'd love some way to counter this where IM at least hurting his raids somewhat.




Dora09 -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (11/28/2012 4:10:52 PM)

I am not the most experienced or skilled player out there but I only play as Japanese and I have a PBEM where I am in late 42 like you and I have had some success against 4es. There is no real antidote for the 4e but there are some things you can do. I mass AAA at important bases and have as much radar and air support teams as possible. I use Ki45 KAI 1as for bases that are too far for fighters to escort. Well trained pilots in the early Ki45 can do very well against 4es. Set the Ki45 alt to the altitude the bombers are coming in at and you will have more success and curiously less losses (it seems like the best way for a defender to lose fighters to 4e defensive fire is to set your interceptors too high. Also, use your zeros (same rule for alt.), they can actually be pretty good against 4es if you have good pilots. The key is good pilots!! Remember that in defense you will lose fewer pilots and train them up fast while he will be losing planes and pilots. Also, if you can it is good to have well supplied and guarded bases with in decent LRCAP range, so that if he shuts down the airfield, you can get him with LRCAP on the next turns until you build back the airfield, this will also help you shuttle planes back a and forth.

Also, use the early Ki45 but not the others (b and c models) the 20mm and two 12.5mm seem to be better than the low accuracy 37mm.

Of course this is all against day bombing, after getting stung a few times he will go to night bombing where only the AAA will help because Japan has no night fighter until 44. Make sure your AAA teams have as many searchlights and radar as possible.

Also, I should say that I am playing the Bigbabes C mod and it seems that 4es may be a little easier than they were to deal with in other versions but then again, it may not, it is hard to say.

Hope this helps and I am sure you will get even better advice from the more experienced Japanese players out there.




Dora09 -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (11/28/2012 4:18:15 PM)

Again concerning the Ki45. I have found that it is a great plane in this game. It has armor and it has relatively good mnvr rating for a 2e fighter. With good pilots on point defense or point LRCAP it has done very well in my current game. I actually have many Ki45 aces right now some many in the neighborhood of 10 kills! Some have even shot down early p38s and held there own against single engine fighters. Quite pleased this time around with them and I think they are your best bet against 4es until the mighty N1K1-J shows up.




nashvillen -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (11/28/2012 4:20:12 PM)

Use Georges at the base or another base nearby and use LRCAP. Also, a carrier strike or naval bombardment mission on the airbase they are coming from will settle their hash. Just a couple of options. In late 1942 they are still not producing them in enough numbers to take any significant losses and keep up those numbers.

Later on is another story...




Crackaces -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (11/28/2012 11:13:02 PM)

[HUMOR=ON]

You can always negotate a home rule .. no 4E attacks below 20K feet [;)]

[/HUMOR]

It has been mentioned before, but just damaging these aircraft has consequinces. First, putting up CAP throws off aim. Second, damaged aircraft have a probability of crashing on the way home or landing. The service rating means damaged aircraft spend time repariing. Finally, as mentioned, 4E's are a precious commodity in 1942. So resist ... even though it seems futile ...

If you are seeing hundreds of 4E's then I might suspect the 4E's in Washington and Oregon might have been bought out. If so. there is a price to be paid. CRSutton once posted in my ol' AAR -- Train -- Train -- Train .. I did not understand what that meant until I bought out those boys on the West Coast. It was impossible to keep the pools filled with trained pilots that did not do ground loops on taxi. I wish I would have kept these planes training at 100% rather than engaging in ops every 3 days.

In my most recent game .. I trained .. trained ... Trained .. [8D]





rroberson -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (11/28/2012 11:41:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

[HUMOR=ON]

You can always negotate a home rule .. no 4E attacks below 20K feet [;)]

[/HUMOR]

It has been mentioned before, but just damaging these aircraft has consequinces. First, putting up CAP throws off aim. Second, damaged aircraft have a probability of crashing on the way home or landing. The service rating means damaged aircraft spend time repariing. Finally, as mentioned, 4E's are a precious commodity in 1942. So resist ... even though it seems futile ...

If you are seeing hundreds of 4E's then I might suspect the 4E's in Washington and Oregon might have been bought out. If so. there is a price to be paid. CRSutton once posted in my ol' AAR -- Train -- Train -- Train .. I did not understand what that meant until I bought out those boys on the West Coast. It was impossible to keep the pools filled with trained pilots that did not do ground loops on taxi. I wish I would have kept these planes training at 100% rather than engaging in ops every 3 days.

In my most recent game .. I trained .. trained ... Trained .. [8D]





Oh I train and train and train. I guess he caught me by surprise. Most of my Japanese games my opp employs them in Burma or out of Darwin. So I was well prepared there. First time I have felt the their bite over PM and New Cal. Im sorting things about now so I should have a decent defense up soon. I think I was looking for an easy counter...and there isn't really one.





rev rico -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (11/29/2012 1:21:23 AM)

I use masses of Tojos, Georges, or Franks on CAP. Once I identify where he's bombing, a huge LRCAP of 100+ fighters at a little above the bombers' altitude tends to destroy or damage enough to discourage further attacks on that base.

Just my experience,
Bob




Crackaces -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (11/29/2012 2:45:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

[HUMOR=ON]

You can always negotate a home rule .. no 4E attacks below 20K feet [;)]

[/HUMOR]

It has been mentioned before, but just damaging these aircraft has consequinces. First, putting up CAP throws off aim. Second, damaged aircraft have a probability of crashing on the way home or landing. The service rating means damaged aircraft spend time repariing. Finally, as mentioned, 4E's are a precious commodity in 1942. So resist ... even though it seems futile ...

If you are seeing hundreds of 4E's then I might suspect the 4E's in Washington and Oregon might have been bought out. If so. there is a price to be paid. CRSutton once posted in my ol' AAR -- Train -- Train -- Train .. I did not understand what that meant until I bought out those boys on the West Coast. It was impossible to keep the pools filled with trained pilots that did not do ground loops on taxi. I wish I would have kept these planes training at 100% rather than engaging in ops every 3 days.

In my most recent game .. I trained .. trained ... Trained .. [8D]





Oh I train and train and train. I guess he caught me by surprise. Most of my Japanese games my opp employs them in Burma or out of Darwin. So I was well prepared there. First time I have felt the their bite over PM and New Cal. Im sorting things about now so I should have a decent defense up soon. I think I was looking for an easy counter...and there isn't really one.




and .. might I say your opponent is paying a price if in fact he has committed the 4th USAAF Training fleet of 4E's this early. At some point this will catch up in my opinion .. I think that is what CrSutton meant by training . using the training squadrons to train first and do not comitt them until you have a full complement of pilots .. I suspect the Allies will soon be of want ..




panzer cat -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (11/29/2012 2:53:44 AM)

I ran into the same problem, we added a 15k min alt, both the allied player and I thought that it was to easy to shut down airfields and resource centers with 4E bombers. If he's bombing out of fighter range damage will catch up to him.




khyberbill -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/9/2012 3:17:02 AM)

quote:

and .. might I say your opponent is paying a price if in fact he has committed the 4th USAAF Training fleet of 4E's this early. At some point this will catch up in my opinion .. I think that is what CrSutton meant by training . using the training squadrons to train first and do not comitt them until you have a full complement of pilots .. I suspect the Allies will soon be of want ..


I did not buy out any squadrons. They are all training, training and doing some more training. Most of the pilots in the B-17/B/24 squadrons that are employed against Rob are in the low 50s or high 40s which is good for the allies. I also will pull in some 50+ fighter pilots that have air exp below 60 since I have more than I need (all my army fighter squadrons on the front line are now well above 60 exp). They cant hit crap but they dont lose the plane while their bombing exp goes up. Bombing exp appears to rise faster then overall exp.




mike scholl 1 -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/9/2012 6:03:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

My biggest concern is I worked hard to set up New Cal as a nice base to interdict his shipping to Australia and he is using massed LB 30s to smash the airbases there. I'd love some way to counter this where IM at least hurting his raids somewhat.



Your biggest problem is that New Caledonia is pretty much at "the left end of nowhere" for the Japanese. Historically, even Rabaul turned out to be unsupportable in the long run..., but New Caledonia is one of those bases you might sieze to "toss a spanner into his works", but not a place you should plan on holding for more than nuisance value.




Puhis -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/9/2012 7:03:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

My biggest concern is I worked hard to set up New Cal as a nice base to interdict his shipping to Australia and he is using massed LB 30s to smash the airbases there. I'd love some way to counter this where IM at least hurting his raids somewhat.



Your biggest problem is that New Caledonia is pretty much at "the left end of nowhere" for the Japanese. Historically, even Rabaul turned out to be unsupportable in the long run..., but New Caledonia is one of those bases you might sieze to "toss a spanner into his works", but not a place you should plan on holding for more than nuisance value.



Yeah. Japan cannot defend New Caledonia. No-one should even try that, it's nothing but waste of assets.




khyberbill -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/10/2012 5:30:48 PM)

Rob just invaded Ceylon too so it looks like a pincer move on Oz. [:)]




SenToku -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/11/2012 10:53:11 AM)

How about flak TF in the hex? Almost anything in IJN inventory carries DP gun of some sort or at very least a battery's worth of 25 mm guns. Even creating a TF from some CM minelayers would be usefull as some of them carry the rare 40 mm gun effective against planes under 10k.




khyberbill -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/11/2012 8:43:05 PM)

I dont think a flak TF will fire at bombers hitting an airfield, not even sure if they would fire at bombers hitting a port. The TF could be considered to be at the far edge of the hex.




inqistor -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/15/2012 7:06:13 AM)

Your best bet is to destroy them on land. Send some bombarding TFs, o make air attacks.
Even letting detecting your heavy TF should force Allied player to rebase his bombers further inland.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

My biggest concern is I worked hard to set up New Cal as a nice base to interdict his shipping to Australia and he is using massed LB 30s to smash the airbases there. I'd love some way to counter this where IM at least hurting his raids somewhat.

Is he flying from Australia? Situation seems quite good, as he is at very long range. Just expand all airfields at New Caledonia, and east of it, and combine CAP/LRCAP.
Are there anything escorting except P-38? NICKs would be great for interception here.




Crackaces -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/15/2012 12:56:01 PM)

Just to say in one of the latest Beta's Micheal increased the effectiveness of ground based flak. I am finding that IJ flak is accumulating much more damage on my 4E's, and the 88's on Truk are shooting down my bombers with regularity. My opponent was squaking about 4E's until this update -- Now I that am accumulating losses the subject has changed [8D]




Micke II -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/17/2012 9:22:01 PM)

It's the first time I see this message in a combat report.


Katagi I. in a A6M3a Zero makes head on attack ... forces B-24D Liberator out of formation
Oda J. in a A6M3a Zero makes head on attack ... forces B-24D1 Liberator out of formation



What is the effect on combat and in which circumstances does it appear ?




inqistor -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/18/2012 10:44:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Just to say in one of the latest Beta's Micheal increased the effectiveness of ground based flak. I am finding that IJ flak is accumulating much more damage on my 4E's, and the 88's on Truk are shooting down my bombers with regularity. My opponent was squaking about 4E's until this update -- Now I that am accumulating losses the subject has changed [8D]

I was in the middle of testing AA, when the change showed up, and I can say, that it effectively triples loses for first turn historic PH strike.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Micke II

It's the first time I see this message in a combat report.


Katagi I. in a A6M3a Zero makes head on attack ... forces B-24D Liberator out of formation
Oda J. in a A6M3a Zero makes head on attack ... forces B-24D1 Liberator out of formation



What is the effect on combat and in which circumstances does it appear ?

There is theory, that with enough bombers on mission, they fly in formation, and support each other with MG fire (it MAY work only for Allies). It is quite random (maybe experience for both sides have influence), and probably makes the plane easier target.
There is also second special attack type, where heavily damaged fighter rams enemy bomber, but it rarely destroy enemy plane.




Micke II -> RE: The Problem of 4Es for the Japanese (12/19/2012 10:04:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Micke II

It's the first time I see this message in a combat report.


Katagi I. in a A6M3a Zero makes head on attack ... forces B-24D Liberator out of formation
Oda J. in a A6M3a Zero makes head on attack ... forces B-24D1 Liberator out of formation



What is the effect on combat and in which circumstances does it appear ?

There is theory, that with enough bombers on mission, they fly in formation, and support each other with MG fire (it MAY work only for Allies). It is quite random (maybe experience for both sides have influence), and probably makes the plane easier target.
There is also second special attack type, where heavily damaged fighter rams enemy bomber, but it rarely destroy enemy plane.


In this attack both pilots have destroyed a Liberator and 11 Liberators on a total of 23 have been damaged. So it seems that the bombers formation has been dismantled due to the action of these 2 pilots.
At this stage of war (February 1943) my Tojos and Zeros are able to keep at bay the allied heavy bombers probably an effect of a better experience of my pilots.




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