Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (Full Version)

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Isokron -> Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/22/2012 6:58:20 PM)

Time for a new game, this time on the Trappenjagd scenario. I will keep this AAR about three turns after the game so jonny is welcome to comment in this thread as well.

So the target is Kharkov and looking at the map it seems like the best way to reach it will be to follow somewhat along the historical Soviet plan with a two pronged encirclement since those urban hexes will be to hard to take without it. If its possible at all I'm not sure but I will try my best at least.

Meanwhile I will try to attack at any point in the front where I think I can get away with it in order to cause losses hopefully force my opponent to spread out his troops so he cant form strong breakthrough force. Especially I will target the minors since any morale they lose now will take a long time to recover.

The crux will of course be to keep the southern flank of the southern spearhead from collapsing, we will see how that goes for this turn I just rail in as much troop close to it as I can.

Meanwhile my airforce will completely abandon most of the front and concentrate in the very south to keep the supply flowing to the Crimean troops.



[image]local://upfiles/42758/96033E16D413460B8CD4A582EB8D818C.jpg[/image]




Bonners -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/22/2012 7:54:41 PM)

This should be really interesting. I'm particularly interested to see how you get on with your air force trying to cover the Crimea and whether it means you get supply through. Is your plan to fly missions or just have them there which should stop the interdiction?

Also have you got the dismissal rule on? In my game against Reconvert, despite him attacking like fury in the early part of the game he would've ended up being dismissed for not taking Kharkov.




jonny211 -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/23/2012 8:40:47 AM)

Hi all,

From the start my objectives are to take Kerch, Sevastopol and hold Kharkov... so not too much at the same time then eh?

At Kerch I pull the 22nd Panzer away to fight at the southern edge of the Kharkov bulge and leave the attack to the infantry. After a bit of air scouting and some attacks on turn 1 while the defenders are on low entrenchment I think that this might have been a mistake, the units in the Kerch pocket are quite numerous!

I also find that my air force on the peninsula suffers quite badly and valuable Stuka units are quickly worn down, I send the rest of the airforce north to help against the Kharkov bulge. I hope to reduce most of Isokrons tank units through dive bombers while I gather up the Panzer divisions.

The front is very thin on the ground, many squares are held by just two units. I think that holding Kharkov may be a problem.

Thankfully the dismissal rule is off otherwise I'd be in Gestapo prison by June.





Bonners -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/23/2012 10:19:24 AM)

You may want to have a look again at your air force Jon. If Isokron is making a determined effort to supply his units in the Crimea they will be difficult to shift. As for your Stukas I learnt from bitter experience playing against Isokron that they need at least two clear turns to recover readiness. They are excellent attack planes, but as with the Sturmoviks for the Soviets they are very vulnerable to AA fire and fighters just by the nature of their attacks.

It is a shame, but I dont think the dismissal rules work correctly for this scenario. It is very difficult for the Soviets to avoid dismissal in the early part of the game by the sounds of it and with the Soviets not losing the historic troops in the Kharkov offensive it is difficult for the Axis to keep up with their objectives in the latter part of June and July.

Having totally failed as Axis in my game against Reconvert (I've gone over to the defensive in mid July) I'm looking forward to how this one pans out. I havent seen Reconvert's AAR yet, but I presume he will have pointed out the major strategic mistakes I made after stopping the Soviet offensive, so that may be worth a read. I think as the Axis player where you deploy your troops at that stage is essential to get right - I got it totally wrong which enabled the Soviets to build up their defensive lines.




Reconvet -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/23/2012 10:46:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bonners
Having totally failed as Axis in my game against Reconvert (I've gone over to the defensive in mid July) I'm looking forward to how this one pans out. I havent seen Reconvert's AAR yet, but I presume he will have pointed out the major strategic mistakes I made after stopping the Soviet offensive, so that may be worth a read. I think as the Axis player where you deploy your troops at that stage is essential to get right - I got it totally wrong which enabled the Soviets to build up their defensive lines.


I'm totally lagging behind with my AAR (very time-intensive style...) and have just started to catch up now that our turns don't eat up so much time anymore. You're free to drop in there and add your comments anytime.

One thing I'd classify as mistake was that Bonners did not systematically bomb the bridges supplying the russian 6th Army south of Kharkow. Russian engineers manage to repair a bridge every second/third turn if the hex containing the engineers is bombed to destroy the bridge (lowering readiness of the engineers makes it harder for them to recover engineering points for repairs and lowers the chance to successfully repair the bridge)... My supply situation there would have been pretty hopeless without those 2-3 bridges.

Then the Axis counterpush after the red offensive should mass most available mobile units on good tank terrain (plains&fields hexes, no or few river crossings) if you want to get a chance to cut off the russian armies in the Izium salient, which would make Axis life very much easier for his Fall Blau offensive. That's at least what I will try when I'll play Axis in Trappenjagd after my current game with Bonners.




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/23/2012 6:09:12 PM)

Turn 2: Mud

Not entirely sure who lose the most from the mud turn but its probably the germans since its the first turn they can manoeuvre in the north. Four of his panzer divisions go missing directly which is worrying since if he combines those somewhere they will easily rip through my front and create a big breakthrough which will be hard to contain with my command and control level. So I try to continue to apply pressure where I can in the hope of keeping him on the defensive.

My northern spearhead is struck by command and control problems which means progress is slow even if he has a huge hole in his front there. The southern one continues to make progress and on its southwestern part its now ready to encircle his remaining units unless he retreats quickly.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/880596CB90F4427389C1CBEE4E563661.jpg[/image]




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/24/2012 7:02:32 PM)

Turn 3:

The germans brings in their reserves that started behind Kharkow to attack my advancing forces. They manage to take Mereta but then both their panzer divisions are repulsed when trying to attack further. I then manage to counter attack one of them which should leave it weakened for a while. At the southern part of the attack he choose to stand fast and I destroy two Romanian regiments with a six sided attack while encircling a security division. A bit further east he has started to assemble his counterattack though so we will have to see how that goes.

My northern attack is meanwhile completely frozen from command and control problems, otherwise I would have been able to encircle a division there as well. Meanwhile in the north and south he brings back two panzer divisions into vision so maybe my diversionary attacks are working as intended.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/206EBF82F6A14BFDA3AF6928EADE3E7D.jpg[/image]




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/26/2012 7:03:00 PM)

Turn 4:

The german attack on the south of my salient continue but seems quite slow. To the west of that the surrounded security division tries to break out with the help of a bulgarian division, this fails and instead I encircle the rescuers as well. Trying to eliminate the security division directly with a 6 sided attack fails however. I also get my first High command order which is to take Krasnodar (white ring) which seems quite reasonable.

To the north of Kharkow I still have c&c problems although I can move forward a few hexes at least.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/54AACF65297E445C8B5F03A604E47E86.jpg[/image]




jonny211 -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/28/2012 4:41:50 PM)

I have to admit that this scenario seems hard going for the Germans. Trying to put enough air units onto the peninsula to cut his supply to Kerch hasn't worked, the supply still gets through. I have tried an air attack against Kerch but found that his capital ship units in port massacre my attacking planes. The fighters don't have enough range to reach towns a few hexes back from the coast opposite Kerch so I can't attack any of his air units based there.

I have put everything I have into attacking the Kharkov bulge from the south now so the rest of the front suffers a few attacks but no breakthroughs, I hold the rail line to Kharkov still and grind the T34's down with Stuka's and HS123's. In the next few turns I'll try something a little different with my KG units though...




James Ward -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/28/2012 4:47:21 PM)

^ Yes I don't think the Germans can do what they did historically around Kerch in this scenario. It's easier to take Sevastapol than it is to take Kerch which seems backwards.




Reconvet -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/28/2012 5:04:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonny211

I have to admit that this scenario seems hard going for the Germans. Trying to put enough air units onto the peninsula to cut his supply to Kerch hasn't worked, the supply still gets through. I have tried an air attack against Kerch but found that his capital ship units in port massacre my attacking planes. The fighters don't have enough range to reach towns a few hexes back from the coast opposite Kerch so I can't attack any of his air units based there.

I have put everything I have into attacking the Kharkov bulge from the south now so the rest of the front suffers a few attacks but no breakthroughs, I hold the rail line to Kharkov still and grind the T34's down with Stuka's and HS123's. In the next few turns I'll try something a little different with my KG units though...


Okay, parking his capital ships inside Kerch - if that's what he's doing - might look to be a good move for the soviet player.

What exactly happens when you launch a bombing raid consisting of 3-4 KG (with readiness 90-100)? How many levelbombers do you lose in such a raid, how much damage to the port do you do in such an attack, do you damage his ships? Can you keep his fighters pinned down with own fighter raids in a pampa hex on the mainland east of Kerch (one to two sweep attacks should be enough) before you launch your bombers without escort?

If Kerch port is bombed to zero each turn his units west of Kerch will starve. Ships ending their turn in a damaged port (or even moving into a damaged port?) should suffer readiness hits. If you manage to keep Kerch on zero you should be able to steamroll into Kerch after 2-3 turns. Move enough KG down there so you can rotate them, rest them once their readiness drops below 90/85 (same as with the rest of your planes or you'll burn them out quickly).




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/28/2012 10:13:22 PM)

Turn 5: Mud

Another turn of mud which im not sure who is hurt most with. The mud together with his bridge bombing creates a catastrophic supply situation for my my 6th army. On the other hand he chooses this turn to really begin his attack at the southern part of the bulge with two new panzer divisions showing up there. Without the mud the situation would likely have turned even worse than it already did.

Not much actions otherwise, I kill of his surrounded security divisions and do some other small attacks while my northern spearhead moves forward taking out the next to last railline to Kharkow.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/58D135E328F44079ADB4BA847A49D1C7.jpg[/image]




jonny211 -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/29/2012 12:12:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

Okay, parking his capital ships inside Kerch - if that's what he's doing - might look to be a good move for the soviet player.

What exactly happens when you launch a bombing raid consisting of 3-4 KG (with readiness 90-100)? How many levelbombers do you lose in such a raid, how much damage to the port do you do in such an attack, do you damage his ships? Can you keep his fighters pinned down with own fighter raids in a pampa hex on the mainland east of Kerch (one to two sweep attacks should be enough) before you launch your bombers without escort?

If Kerch port is bombed to zero each turn his units west of Kerch will starve. Ships ending their turn in a damaged port (or even moving into a damaged port?) should suffer readiness hits. If you manage to keep Kerch on zero you should be able to steamroll into Kerch after 2-3 turns. Move enough KG down there so you can rotate them, rest them once their readiness drops below 90/85 (same as with the rest of your planes or you'll burn them out quickly).



In the next few turns I'll be attacking empty hexes to draw out his fighters, and also have caught a few air units at their airfields east of Kerch. I've been using my bomber units against bridges to cut the supply to the Kharkov attack but find that engineer units now cover many of these and the supply isn't reduced enough (or so I think from the supply overlay - maybe Isokron could confirm this in the next few posts?), so I'll switch to cities which I've not tried before so thanks for the info... I should've tried bombing Kerch from turn 1 onwards but as always the finer points of games elude me!




Reconvet -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/29/2012 2:42:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jonny211

In the next few turns I'll be attacking empty hexes to draw out his fighters, and also have caught a few air units at their airfields east of Kerch. I've been using my bomber units against bridges to cut the supply to the Kharkov attack but find that engineer units now cover many of these and the supply isn't reduced enough (or so I think from the supply overlay - maybe Isokron could confirm this in the next few posts?), so I'll switch to cities which I've not tried before so thanks for the info... I should've tried bombing Kerch from turn 1 onwards but as always the finer points of games elude me!



This is a game which gives a clear advantage to players who already have proceeded higher on the learning curve. I'm afraid that with Isokron you have found yourself an opponent with a record (demonstrated in other AARs) to take full advantage of opportunities presented to him.

Reading AARs offers you a chance not to repeat mistakes other players have made, and may show you tactics you don't have to find out the hard way. In CB/Trappenjagd the soviet player has a better chance to recover from early mistakes, less so the Axis player who has to get good results early on if he wants half a chance to get a major victory.

So: Yep, Kerch definitly should be shut down right from the beginning and stay so until this city belongs to you. I'm afraid not having done so will keep costing you dearly.





Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/29/2012 6:32:18 PM)

Turn 6:

Hit attack on the southern part of my salient continues although I manage to hold back some of his attacks which buys me time to move forward more troops. Nevertheless he is to strong here for me to be able to hold my ground.

Around Kharkow I try to take Mereta to improve my supply lines but is repulsed in a bloody defeat. To the north I drive back some regiments and send out some scouts to cut the last of his rail connections. Even if its not enough to really affect his supply maybe it will panic him into withdrawing before the southern attacks becomes too alarming.

In the north and south I start several attacks causing big losses for him.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/5111CC9C253A4EE99B77009C57E259C3.jpg[/image]




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (11/29/2012 6:50:08 PM)

Turn 7:

No sign of panic here, he calmly destroy my scouting units using some (I presume) newly warped in units. His attack to the south continue to press forward although I have slowed it to about a hex per turn. Even so with only two turns left of the deadline its time to realize that I won't take Kharkow in time and trying to extend it is not likely to work. So I start preparing for retreat while still trying to seem dangerous so that he can't move troops north and south where I continue to attack.

To lessen any Soviet players alarm over this I include a graph over the last few weeks total losses on both sides.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/EC5E27A6512145548574AADFD55DF5A0.jpg[/image]




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/1/2012 10:17:31 AM)

Turn 8:

The germans continue grinding away at the southern flank of my salient and c&c problems prevents me from retreating as fast as I would like. But at least I manage to take the last forest hex on the railway southeast of Kharkow giving me a supply route, although c&c problems keep me from repairing the bridge with the engineer that has been camped there forever.

In the north and south he starts withdrawing his troops over large areas of the front although he seems to forget some troops in the south that I quickly surrounds, unfortunately c&c keep me from doing a secure encirclement so he will most likely break out.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/0161774156874E85995B2FA21BC3F467.jpg[/image]




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/3/2012 6:54:21 PM)

Turn 9:

High command has given me two new objectives in the north and south so its time to start attacking there again.

Around Kharkow his southern offensive is going slow, his panzer divisions are probably quite low readiness by now. But new ones are comming in from the northwest which will make it more dangerous esp as c&c problems prevent me from retreating as much as I would like. He also manage to break out of the weak encirclement I created in the south.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/7D4E6557EA974DE5AB753C6E80CB81D0.jpg[/image]




Bonners -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/3/2012 6:56:22 PM)

Is this under the new patch now? I didnt think the Soviets should get much in the way of offensive objectives any more, unless I've misunderstood it?




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/3/2012 7:11:24 PM)

Turn 10:

German pressure on my salient continue and they are getting dangerously close to cutting it off while c&c problems as usual continue to slow my retreat.

In the north and south I move up to try to take my objectives, which each only has two turns left.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/6759652E0FAF402C87EE522ADD1A9628.jpg[/image]




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/4/2012 5:05:50 PM)

Turn 11:

The germans almost manage to cut off some 20k troops south of Kharkow but fails at the last attack. No c&c problems this turn so I manage to withdraw most of them behind the chokepoint and also do a counterattack to somewhat widen it further back.

In the north and south the germans continue to falling back a hex or two per turn.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/D35A49BAAFFE4161B2CADD353A55F2AD.jpg[/image]




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/4/2012 5:11:19 PM)

Turn 12:

The germans finally manage to cut off about 10k troops south of Kharkow but I finally get the chance to cleanly disengage so im not that sorry about the outcome.

In the north and south my attacks continue to pick up pace since a successful attacks usually leaves some thrashed German units that he will have to thin out his line elsewhere to replace.

[image]local://upfiles/42758/A727D9094ECD44CE866A717E3FEF3B9B.jpg[/image]




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/4/2012 5:20:15 PM)

Turn 13:

Germany surrenders. Probably the correct decision after the heavy losses he had taken and also I think Italy choose to leave the war since all Italian units disappeared. Total losses ended up at about 160k germans to 115k soviets with 432k germans to 647k soviets still active.

All in all I would say the germans have to somehow grasp the initiative early and get the front mobile so that they can exploit the soviet c&c problems. If the soviets can do prepared attacks in their own tempo like I was allowed to do on many part of the front the Germans will just be slowly grinded away and after a few weeks they wont have enough left to hold the front anymore.

That said I dont think the german situation is hopeless and would like to try my hand at playing them in this scenario against someone.

Oh and finally I'm not sure if the fact that all units start at 0 instead of full entrenchment is a bug or not but it really make the opening turns a lot more interesting.




wallas -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/4/2012 7:42:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Isokron

All in all I would say the germans have to somehow grasp the initiative early and get the front mobile so that they can exploit the soviet c&c problems.



Give ground as the Germans and suck those russians into unfortified positions and keep them moving west away from there big rivers. if the germans lose units early in this scenario after Turn 1 its due to there poor decisions in my opinion. The germans can easily move away from the russians so they cannot hurt them, and as added bonus suck them west into open terrain not fortified away from there rivers as the Germans get more and more reinforcments.

my 2 cents




jonny211 -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/5/2012 10:01:06 PM)

I have to say that I was thrashed in this game, with the German line so thin once the Russians started to make holes I had nothing to patch them up again as I also had to contend with keeping Kharkov and taking Kerch... my Panzer units were concentrated at Kharkov other wise I think I would've lost that quite quickly. I think I had one panzer Division and two infantry as reinforcements for the first 13 turns, I'm not counting the Italians reinforcement units!

Once I started bombing Kerch down to zero I didn't really notice any drop in the Russians readiness in the following two turns, perhaps Kerch had to be isolated for longer? Also moving all of my fighter units south, and actively attacking Russian fighter units made no difference to supplies reaching Kerch.

Also my strategy of attacking bridges deep in the Russian side seemed to make no difference to supplies reaching the Russians front units.

All in all a painful lesson!




Bonners -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/5/2012 10:34:53 PM)

Dont worry Jonny, you're not the only one[:D]





wallas -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/6/2012 2:29:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jonny211


All in all a painful lesson!



A good thrashing will only improve your game play, so cheers.




Isokron -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/6/2012 11:22:02 AM)

The bridge bombing became quite painfull at least for the forward units in the Kharkow salient. I choose to not emphasise it too much in the aar in ordet to not give you any ideas :)

It seems like bombing the Kerch harbour will bring down the soviet to about 50% supply (less away from the roads) which mean they won't start losing readiness but they won't be able to regain lost readiness from combat/movement either (but remember that they have a local supply buffer worth 40 readiness when full).




jonny211 -> RE: Trappenjagd, Isokron(soviet) vs jonny211 (12/6/2012 12:19:21 PM)

Ah many thanks, I did try a bombardment & attack on the Kerch units to see what happens but again was probably too late.




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