Partisan question. (Full Version)

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Ur_Vile_WEdge -> Partisan question. (11/15/2012 11:10:32 PM)

M/A 40

Japan is at war with China, France and the CW are at war with Germany and Italy.

At the end of the turn, a partisan generates in French Indo-China.

It is currently at war with France, and controlled by Italy.

Now, suppose the Germans knock over Paris and set up the Vichy government, and the next impulse, Japan aligns Indo-China. Partisans aren't removed when someone is conquered, so my understanding would be that the Partisan is still around, and now under Communist Chinese control.

Am I on the ball here?




paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/16/2012 3:03:36 AM)

It is under Chinese control, not Communist Chinese control. Only partisans in China are under Communist Chinese control.

The difference being that it is only the Chinese action choice that now applies to this Indo-China partisan, whereas a partisan in China would count against Russian action limits plus would still have to have China choose a Land or Combined, before it could move and/or attack.

Edit: We had a game where the same thing happened, but then China took Hanoi and liberated Indo-China, and Japan then controlled the partisan. But then Japan got completely conquered, so Italy controlled it (not at war with China but closest capital from the other side). Then China reverted Indo-China to Free France and Germany controlled the partisan because that same turn Italy was conquered.




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/16/2012 3:19:18 PM)

March/April 1940
Japan is at war with China.
France and the CW are at war with Germany and Italy.

At the end of the turn, a partisan is generated in French Indo-China (a red partisan country).

quote:

13.1 Partisans (option 46)
Getting partisans

Each country named in bold italics on a red background is eligible if it is controlled by any active major power.

Roll another die for each eligible country and compare it to that countryís partisan number (in the fist symbol on the map). If the country was neutral at any time in the calendar year, halve its partisan number.

Controlling Partisan
Partisans in Ďredí countries are controlled by the nearest major power currently at war with the major power that controls the country. The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minorís capital city. If no major powers are at war with the controlling major power, then the nearest major power on the other side runs the partisans.

Partisan effects
Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and itís aligned minors) even if the partisanís controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer.

Partisans are not removed from the map either when their country or their controlling major power has been conquered. Even if their controlling major power has been completely conquered, partisans can still move and fight every turn as if their controlling major power had chosen a land action.


The original partisan is controlled by Italy who is currently and at war with France.

End of turn
The Germany installs a Vichy French government. Vichy France becomes a neutral major power that controls French Indo-China.

Since Vichy France became a neutral major power any further partisan rolls for this year will be at half the partisan value

The original partisan is still controlled by Italy.



May/June 1940
Japan aligns French Indo-China.

quote:

1. Japan occupies Indo-China - Japan aligns French Indo-China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Move any Vichy units in French Indo-China to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in French Indo-China immediately become Japanese controlled.

The original partisan is still controlled by Italy.

Any NEWLY GENERATED partisans would be controlled by Nationalist China.

This would simulate the situation is Yugoslavia in World War II where you had the Chetnik (German controlled Serbian royalist) and Tito's (USSR controlled Republican) partisans.






Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (11/16/2012 5:25:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

13.1 Partisans
(option 46)


Controlling Partisans
Partisans in Ďredí countries are controlled by the nearest major power currently at war with the major power that controls the country. The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minorís capital city. If no major powers are at war with the controlling major power, then the nearest major power on the other side runs the partisans.









Are you sure about that? I might be misinterpreting the rules, but I'd say that the use of the present tense "are", that partisans "are controlled by the nearest major power..." etc would imply that if the control of the country with a red partisan box shifts, the partisans switch their allegiance.

The state of control would then start with Italy (closest MP at war with France) and when the Vichy government is installed, it's on the Axis side, so control of the Partisans would go to the nearest power to Vichy, which would be the CW.

Further thought though, reveals other problems.

quote:

17.3 Units
Non-French units


The owning player moves every non-French controlled land and aircraft unit in a Vichy French hex to the nearest hex they can stack in controlled by its major power, or a co-operating major power, or their aligned minors.


The Partisan would be an Italian unit in a Vichy French hex (since partisans don't change control of hexes) and should be evicted, except that partisans can't move out of their country.


So now I'm really confused [:(]




Centuur -> RE: Partisan question. (11/16/2012 6:38:06 PM)

RAW:

"Controlling Partisan
Partisans in Ďredí countries are controlled by the nearest major power currently at war with the major power that controls the country. The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minorís capital city. If no major powers are at war with the controlling major power, then the nearest major power on the other side runs the partisans. "


Note the word: "currently". In my opinion this means that the controlling MP of a partisan unit in a red partisan country changes to one of the opposite side, whenever that country is conquered by the other side.

Therefore: a partisan unit in Indo China is controlled by:

Italy, if France isn't at war with Japan.
China, if Indo China is Vichy (because Vichy is on the Axis side)
Italy, if Indo China is Free French and Free France isn't at war with Japan

It doesn't state that only new created Partisan units are controlled by the other side. Furthermore, RAW says:


"Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and it's aligned minors) even if the partisan's controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer."


Since the conquering major power change sides in a red country, existing partisans in a red country always have to be at war with the conquerer...

I agree with Paulderynk.


If Vichy France is at peace with the allies, control will go to the nearest MP on the other side. This is China (and not the CW, unless the CW declares war on Vichy).






Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (11/16/2012 6:58:50 PM)

Well, not to overly quibble, but isn't determination based on which major power on the opposing side is closest to the controlling major power's capital, not the capital of whatever country the partisan is actually in?

E.G. if Indo-China stays Vichy, you count hexes from Vichy itself, not from Hanoi, which means that the partisan would be controlled by the CW, not by China.

And if that's the case, wouldn't that mean that there's an Allied unit in Indo-China, and thus Japan cannot occupy it?

At least to me, it seems a little counter-intuitive that because there are some guerrillas hiding out in the hills, Japan can't take over the territory, but then again, I've had the same quibble for when the CW lands a division somewhere to preempt the Japanese takeover.


Sorry to everyone in this thread about being so picky, but it did come up in a game of mine, and while the French haven't fallen (yet), I'm trying to determine if it's in my best interests to beg the CW to send a division over to curb-stomp the partisan.




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/16/2012 11:36:28 PM)

quote:

Controlling partisans
Partisans in Ďgreení countries are controlled by the major power that controlled their country before it was conquered (or still control it if it isnít yet conquered). Partisans in China are always communist Chinese units. French partisans are controlled by the Free French unless it is completely conquered, after which they are controlled by the Soviets.

Partisans in Ďredí countries are controlled by the nearest major power currently at war with the major power that controls the country. The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minorís capital city. If no major powers are at war with the controlling major power, then the nearest major power on the other side runs the partisans.



The nearest major power currently at war with Japan is Nationalist China (capital: Chunking) while Communist China has no capital.


quote:

3.1 Sequence of play
End of Turn Stage
13.1 Partisans (option 46)
13.7 Peace

13.7.1 Conquest
Other (than Italy) home countries

To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.

13.7.4 Vichy declaration
You may be able to declare a Vichy government during this step (see 17.1).



Note: Under 3.1 Sequence of play:
End of Turn Stage
13.1 Partisans (option 46)

13.7 Peace step
13.7.1 Conquest
13.7.4 Vichy declaration are separate steps of the.


quote:

17. Vichy France
The Axis may be in a position to install a Vichy French government before France is conquered.

17.1 Creation
An Axis major power can choose to install a Vichy Government if one of its in-supply land units occupies Paris in a peace step and France is not conquered. If more than one Axis major power occupies Paris, then Germany has first choice as to whether it wishes to establish a Vichy government.

If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France. A line on the map marks the border. The capital of Metropolitan Vichy France is Vichy. Paris remains the capital of Occupied France.

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government. Control of occupied France is as per 13.7.1 except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.

Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France.



Since control of partisans is during 13.1 Partisans (option 46) control would be judged during this step.

Germany declared a Vichy government in France they did not conquer France.

Japan aligned French Indo-China they did not conquer it.

Since no conquest has occurred change of control of the partisan doesn't occur.

On the other hand if a new partisan is generated it would be hostile to the current owner of French Indo-China.



quote:

Non-French units
The owning player moves every non-French controlled land and aircraft unit in a Vichy French hex to the nearest hex they can stack in controlled by its major power, or a co-operating major power, or their aligned minors.

Rebase every non-French controlled naval unit in these territories or minor countries to the nearest friendly controlled port within double the range of the rebasing naval units. If there is no friendly base it can stack in within double the naval unitís range, it is destroyed instead.



A partisan is in supply only in their home country so they don't move. There is no penalty for partisans not being moved.




paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/17/2012 5:22:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Since control of partisans is during 13.1 Partisans (option 46) control would be judged during this step.


This is quite simply: Wrong.

Since partisans are always at war with the controlling power it is impossible for them to be controlled by a major power on the same side as the controlling power. Vichy is on the axis side. 13.1 defines the conditions for how partisans are controlled not when control of them changes.




paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/17/2012 5:32:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Well, not to overly quibble, but isn't determination based on which major power on the opposing side is closest to the controlling major power's capital, not the capital of whatever country the partisan is actually in?

E.G. if Indo-China stays Vichy, you count hexes from Vichy itself, not from Hanoi, which means that the partisan would be controlled by the CW, not by China.

And if that's the case, wouldn't that mean that there's an Allied unit in Indo-China, and thus Japan cannot occupy it?

At least to me, it seems a little counter-intuitive that because there are some guerrillas hiding out in the hills, Japan can't take over the territory, but then again, I've had the same quibble for when the CW lands a division somewhere to preempt the Japanese takeover.


Sorry to everyone in this thread about being so picky, but it did come up in a game of mine, and while the French haven't fallen (yet), I'm trying to determine if it's in my best interests to beg the CW to send a division over to curb-stomp the partisan.


The "nearest" reference is with respect to the country the partisan is in, not with respect to the power that controls the country the partisan is in. From the RAW: "The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minorís capital city." How can that refer to an enemy major power when it says "minorís capital city"??

Even if the partisan is in Hanoi, it cannot stop the Japanese from aligning Fr. Indo China. Partisans do not control hexes. Of course the partisan would deny Japan the benefit of the resource while it sits in Hanoi.

The partisan is not an Allied unit. See the glossary for the definition of "Allies". It is controlled by an Allied major power in the sense that somebody on the other side from the axis (after Indo China becomes Vichy) has to decide if the partisan moves and/or attacks and must provide the action limits for it. It is not a Chinese unit nor is it aligned with China.




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/17/2012 10:55:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Since control of partisans is during 13.1 Partisans (option 46) control would be judged during this step.


This is quite simply: Wrong.

Since partisans are always at war with the controlling power it is impossible for them to be controlled by a major power on the same side as the controlling power. Vichy is on the axis side. 13.1 defines the conditions for how partisans are controlled not when control of them changes.


quote:

1.1 Rules
We have arranged these rules in sequence-of-play order. Optional rules are generally in the same place as the standard rule they modify. They are separated from the standard rules by being framed in grey. All optional rules are exactly that and each option can be played in part or full provided all players agree.

To play this game, you should decide on what rules variants you want to play with (using the Optional Rules Manifest on the back of the Production Circle will make this easier) choose a scenario (see 24, scenario information), and follow the set-up instructions there.


quote:

13.1 Partisans (option 46)
Getting partisans
Setting up partisans
Controlling partisans
Partisan effects

Partisan units are always in supply.

They only have a ZOC in the hex they occupy.

Partisans may move anywhere within their home country. They can never leave their home country.

Partisans only co-operate with other units from their own country. Add 1 to each partisan unitís combat factors if it is defending in a forest or jungle hex. Shattered partisans are destroyed instead. Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and itís aligned minors) even if the partisanís controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer.

Partisans are not removed from the map either when their country or their controlling major power has been conquered. Even if their controlling major power has been completely conquered, partisans can still move and fight every turn as if their controlling major power had chosen a land action.



No, rule 13.1 Partisans (option 46) doesn't just define partisan setup and you can easily find rules that otherwise specify using partisans (I.e. whether or not a partisan is a land unit).

As I read the rules, the difference between "Partisans in green countries" and "Partisans in red countries" is:
"Partisans in green countries" are only generated if their country has been conquered (or still control it if it isnít yet conquered).
"Partisans in red countries" can be generated even if the major power that controls their country hasn't been or isn't at war.

As per 1.1 Rules, the rules are written in order of play sequence unless otherwise specified.

So, during the sequence of the rules in the "End of Turn Stage" during "13.1 Partisans (option 46)" you judge control of partisans.


As I understand it, your argument is partisan control is to be judged like supply "at almost any time". I cannot find support for this in the rules.


Note: the rules also support me in that partisans don't leave their home country when Vichy is declared.







Centuur -> RE: Partisan question. (11/17/2012 2:33:30 PM)

I don't agree at all with you, extraneous...

I repeat RAW:

"Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and it's aligned minors) even if the partisan's controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer."

If I follow your point of view, how is it possible for a partisan unit to be controlled by the Major Power which controls his red country? After all, he is at war with that power!

RAW:

1.1 Rules
We have arranged these rules in sequence-of-play order.

In section 2.5 of the rules, control is determined. This section comes first in any turn (before initiative). So during this phase, you determine what Major Power controls which partisans, along with determining which hexes, countries and territories every Major Powers controls. Normally, this is of course skipped. However, regarding Partisans, this is the moment control is determined in the sequence of play...






Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/17/2012 5:50:12 PM)

quote:

Original: Centaur

I don't agree at all with you, extraneous...

I repeat RAW:

"Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and it's aligned minors) even if the partisan's controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer."

If I follow your point of view, how is it possible for a partisan unit to be controlled by the Major Power, which controls his red country? After all, he is at war with that power!

RAW:

1.1 Rules
We have arranged these rules in sequence-of-play order.

In section 2.5 of the rules, control is determined. This section comes first in any turn (before initiative). So during this phase, you determine what Major Power controls which partisans, along with determining which hexes, countries and territories every Major Powers controls. Normally, this is of course skipped. However, regarding Partisans, this is the moment control is determined in the sequence of play...



quote:

2. General concepts
2.1 Terrain
2.1.1 Hexes & hex-dots
2.1.2 Sea areas
2.1.3 Off-map areas
2.1.4 The American minimap
2.2 Zones of control
2.3 Stacking
2.4 Supply
2.4.1 When to check supply
2.4.2 Tracing supply
2.4.3 Out of supply

2.5 Control

Entities (geographical entities)
Initial control (of hex's)
Changing control (of hex's)

quote:

Control of a hex changes when:
An enemy land unit (except for partisans ~ see 13.1 Partisans (option 46) , and supply units ~ see 22.4.10 Supply units (MiF option 6)) enters it (the major power entering with the most factors if more than one); or
An island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1 Conquest); or
France is declared Vichy (see 17.1 Creation); or
It is a communist Chinese-controlled city entered by a nationalist Chinese land unit or vice versa; or
During the liberation step you return control to the original owner (see 13.7.5, reversion).



Units in hexes that change control (Naval and Air units)

2.6 Fractions
2.7 Dice
2.8 Range



Since our situation has nothing to do 2. General concepts and is followed by...

quote:

3. The Turn
After you have set up your game (see 24.1 Setup), you play a series of two-month turns until the scenario is over (this will be from 5 to 36 turns, depending on the scenario).

Both sides perform a series of activities in every turn. There are 3 stages at the start of the turn that everyone takes part in. Then there is a sequence of impulses that each side performs alternately. After those impulses are over, there are a few more stages for everyone. Then the turn is over and you start a new turn (easy isnít it?!?).


Which outlines the sequence of events in the turn.


1) How is it possible for a partisan unit to be controlled by the Major Power, which controls his red country? After all, he is at war with that power!

2) "Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and it's aligned minors) even if the partisan's controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer."

Question: which major power conquered France? Answer: None. A Vichy government was installed by Germany.

Question: which major power conquered French Indo-China? Answer: None. French Indo-China was aligned by Japan.

Japan is only at war with China and has never been at war with France or French Indo-China.

Why is the partisan at war and with whom?






Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/17/2012 6:07:12 PM)

Let me help you out here.

You should be using the argument:

quote:

13.1 Partisans (option 46)
Partisans in Ďredí countries are controlled by the nearest major power currently at war with the major power that controls the country. The nearest is the major power whose capital city is closest to the minorís capital city. If no major powers are at war with the controlling major power, then the nearest major power on the other side runs the partisans.


Which has absolutely nothing to do with conquest.

Control of the partisan would be judged during 13.1 Partisans (option 46).








paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/17/2012 8:52:01 PM)

Try your argument with ADG. There is a link on their site for you to ask rules questions.




paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/17/2012 9:12:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Question: which major power conquered France? Answer: None. A Vichy government was installed by Germany.

Incorrect answer. When France is Vichied, France is incompletely conquered, per RAW.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Question: which major power conquered French Indo-China? Answer: None. French Indo-China was aligned by Japan.

Japan is only at war with China and has never been at war with France or French Indo-China.

Why is the partisan at war and with whom?

Per RAW, Partisans are always at war with the major power that controls their country. The partisan must therefore be at war with Japan and must be controlled by a major pwoer on the Allied side.




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/18/2012 4:38:22 AM)

quote:

Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

3. The Turn
3.1 Sequence of play

E. END OF TURN STAGE
Both sides perform these steps in this order:
E1 Partisans
E2 US entry
E3 Return to base
E4 Final reorganisation
E5 Production
E6 Intelligence (option 63)
E7 Peace
E7.1 Conquest
E7.2 Allied minor support
E7.3 Mutual peace
E7.4 Vichy declaration
E7.5 Liberation
E7.6 Surrender
E8 Victory check (& option 30: factory destruction)



quote:

Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

17. Vichy France
The Axis may be in a position to install a Vichy French government before France is conquered .

17.1 Creation
If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France. A line on the map marks the border . The capital of Metropolitan Vichy France is Vichy. Paris remains the capital of Occupied France .

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government. Control of occupied France is as per 13.7.1 Conquest except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.

Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France.

Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

French territories and minor countries already conquered by the Axis remain conquered by them.

All other French territories and minor countries may be aligned with either Vichy France or Free France.

17.3 Units
Non-French units

The owning player moves every non-French controlled land and aircraft unit in a Vichy French hex to the nearest hex they can stack in controlled by its major power, or a co-operating major power, or their aligned minors.

Rebase every non-French controlled naval unit in these territories or minor countries to the nearest friendly controlled port within double the range of the rebasing naval units. If there is no friendly base it can stack in within double the naval unitís range, it is destroyed instead.


No, when the Vichy government is installed Occupied France is conquered not Vichy France.

Installing Vichy France
1) An Axis player (after meeting the conditions) installs a Vichy French government.
2) Metropolitan France is now divided into 2 parts:

Occupied France (a conquered major power) who's capital Paris
Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) who's capital is Vichy.

3) Control of Occupied France is as per 13.7.1 Conquest except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.
4) Vichy France is a NEW neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.
5) French territories and minor countries already conquered by the Axis remain conquered by them.
6) All other French territories and minor countries may be aligned with either Vichy France or Free France.
7) All non-French units (this includes Axis units) in Vichy France are moved to the nearest hex they can stack in controlled by its major power. All non-French controlled naval units rebase.




Show me in the RAW where Vichy France is conquered or incompletely conquered without triggering Vichy French collapse.

Because...

quote:

1. Japan occupies Indo-China - Japan aligns French Indo-China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Move any Vichy units in French Indo-China to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in French Indo-China immediately become Japanese controlled.


Can only occur if French Indo-China it is a Vichy territory.


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Try your argument with ADG. There is a link on their site for you to ask rules questions.


You take it up with ADG. I am no longer part of the Beta test.




paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/18/2012 9:14:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
You take it up with ADG. I am no longer part of the Beta test.

I am and I can assure you that MWiF handles it the way I stated.




paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/18/2012 9:19:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Show me in the RAW where Vichy France is conquered or incompletely conquered without triggering Vichy French collapse.

That wasn't your question. It was: "which major power conquered France?"

RAW says: "Free France is an alternative government also established at this time. Free France is considered an incompletely conquered major power from now on unless otherwise specified."

If Germany installs Vichy, France is incompletely conquered, so the answer to your question is: Germany.




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/18/2012 11:05:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Show me in the RAW where Vichy France is conquered or incompletely conquered without triggering Vichy French collapse.

That wasn't your question. It was: "which major power conquered France?"

RAW says: "Free France is an alternative government also established at this time. Free France is considered an incompletely conquered major power from now on unless otherwise specified."

If Germany installs Vichy, France is incompletely conquered, so the answer to your question is: Germany.




Here is the entire rule your quoting.

quote:

17.1 Creation
An Axis major power can choose to install a Vichy Government if one of its in-supply land units occupies Paris in a peace step and France is not conquered. If more than one Axis major power occupies Paris, then Germany has first choice as to whether it wishes to establish a Vichy government.

If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France. A line on the map marks the border. The capital of Metropolitan Vichy France is Vichy. Paris remains the capital of Occupied France.

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government. Control of Occupied France is as per 13.7.1 Conquest except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.

Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France.

Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.


Free France is an alternative government also established at this time. Free France is considered an incompletely conquered major power from now on unless otherwise specified. It is run by the French player. Free France starts at war with all countries France was at war with, and at peace with all others (including Vichy France).

French territories and minor countries already conquered by the Axis remain conquered by them.

All other French territories and minor countries may be aligned with either Vichy France or Free France.



As you can see France is now:
Occupied France (a conquered major power home country)
Vichy France (a NEW neutral major power)
The Free French (are considered an incompletely conquered major power or if Free France controls no minor countries, she suffers the effect of complete conquest (see 13.7.1 Conquest) immediately.)

But since the requirements for conquest are not necessary to install Vichy France no conquest has taken place.

Otherwise it would be under 13.7.1 Conquest not 13.7.4 Vichy declaration.

France was not conquered a Vichy government was installed.







Centuur -> RE: Partisan question. (11/18/2012 3:28:54 PM)

You've received an answer on the Yahoo Wif forum, which confirms the rules as described by Paulderynk and me... I quote:

"Partisan remains
It is now an anti-Vichy partisan
It does not prevent Japan demanding Indochina

Rules will be reworded in next version to make this more clear".

The rest doesn't seem to be of any importance, doesn't it?




Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (11/18/2012 4:21:02 PM)

No, not really.

Thanks to everyone who contributed [&o]




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/18/2012 6:15:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

You've received an answer on the Yahoo Wif forum, which confirms the rules as described by Paulderynk and me... I quote:

"Partisan remains
It is now an anti-Vichy partisan
It does not prevent Japan demanding Indochina

Rules will be reworded in next version to make this more clear".

The rest doesn't seem to be of any importance, doesn't it?


Are you allowed to post the result for the Yahoo Wif forum here?





Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Partisan question. (11/18/2012 8:18:51 PM)

I don't see why I wouldn't be, but all I got was a very terse note of:


quote:

I posted this to the rules list and received a definitive answer:

Partisan remains
It is now an anti-Vichy partisan
It does not prevent Japan demanding Indochina

Rules will be reworded in next version to make this more clear.



So, at least my understanding is that red partisans do shift allegiance at some point (although it is unclear exactly when), and that they don't count as "allied units" for purposes of the indochina alignment.


But if you meant like, the rules listing guy's thoughts that went into that decision, it wasn't on the yahoo list, and I don't know it myself. My apologies.




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/19/2012 3:21:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

I don't see why I wouldn't be, but all I got was a very terse note of:


quote:

I posted this to the rules list and received a definitive answer:

Partisan remains
It is now an anti-Vichy partisan
It does not prevent Japan demanding Indochina

Rules will be reworded in next version to make this more clear.



So, at least my understanding is that red partisans do shift allegiance at some point (although it is unclear exactly when), and that they don't count as "allied units" for purposes of the indochina alignment.


But if you meant like, the rules listing guy's thoughts that went into that decision, it wasn't on the yahoo list, and I don't know it myself. My apologies.



I agree a very short note with no details.

I wonder why the partisan is anti-Vichy and not anti-Japan?

The only disagreements we are having are "the when" and "the why" not the results.





Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/20/2012 2:00:27 AM)

Yahoo Group Re: Partisan Question

On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 4:56 PM, William Popovich
Wrote

It is now an Anti-Vichy partisan, by the rules section you quote. this happens when control changes - at any time, it fights the country that controls it, so when Vichy is formed.

It stays. it was not an Allied controlled unit at the moment declaration - Vichy is not formed till after all these steps are done, would be the WiFzen.

You would be able to declare annexation, since anything else would be moronic :-)

I'll send it off to the rules list, but I think you'll fund the above will be the interpretation. I'd stake my share of WiF on it :-)




paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/20/2012 3:32:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I wonder why the partisan is anti-Vichy and not anti-Japan?


The reason is that partisans in red countires always hate the power in control of the country at that time. While Indo China was French, the partisan hated France. While Indo China is Vichy, the partisan hates them. Once Indo China is aligned to Japan, the partisan hates Japan.

Historically, Ho Chi Minh and his boys really did fight all three.




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/20/2012 1:37:29 PM)

Note: in the Yahoo Group Re: Partisan Question nothing is said about conquest.

Centuur post #11
paulderynck post #15


It has to do with who is the controlling major power of red partisan countries.



Yes, historically Uncle Ho really did fight all three. Or are you unfamiliar with the euphemism "Uncle Ho" for " Hồ ChŪ Minh"?




paulderynck -> RE: Partisan question. (11/21/2012 6:29:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


It has to do with who is the controlling major power of red partisan countries.



The current wording there in RAW7 is most unfortunate. "Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and it's aligned minors) even if the partisan's controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer."

Maybe it was worded better in older versions of the rules and the grognards have always played it the way it was intended to work (as described in post #26).

I can see now why the issue became contentious. The next version of the rules will have this fixed. The rules group is trying hard to find and eradicate these kind of ommissions and ambiguities in the RAW.




Extraneous -> RE: Partisan question. (11/21/2012 12:18:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


It has to do with who is the controlling major power of red partisan countries.



The current wording there in RAW7 is most unfortunate. "Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and it's aligned minors) even if the partisan's controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer."

Maybe it was worded better in older versions of the rules and the grognards have always played it the way it was intended to work (as described in post #26).

I can see now why the issue became contentious. The next version of the rules will have this fixed. The rules group is trying hard to find and eradicate these kind of ommissions and ambiguities in the RAW.


[:)] I agree there are some very rough parts in the RAW. [:)]





Centuur -> RE: Partisan question. (11/21/2012 2:57:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


It has to do with who is the controlling major power of red partisan countries.



The current wording there in RAW7 is most unfortunate. "Partisans are always at war with the conquering major power (and it's aligned minors) even if the partisan's controlling major power is not at war with the conquerer."

Maybe it was worded better in older versions of the rules and the grognards have always played it the way it was intended to work (as described in post #26).

I can see now why the issue became contentious. The next version of the rules will have this fixed. The rules group is trying hard to find and eradicate these kind of ommissions and ambiguities in the RAW.


[:)] I agree there are some very rough parts in the RAW. [:)]



I agree on that too. Problem with these kind of games is always: how can I write a small rulebook and have everything right...




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