RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (Full Version)

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LoBaron -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 1:59:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
It works like a charm? According to the two combats you post you shot down ONE Nell out of 60 in the first combat before they released their bombs (the rest obviously afterwards) and in the second combat you shot down THREE bombers before they attacked the target. Both of your examples support the op point of view, not yours actually. [&:] In both cases you had far over 30 min pre warning time and both times the pre warning times were higher than the time it takes ALL of your fighters to intercept the bombers. Doesn't look like a good result to me at all. Surely not a fantasy result like the op's one but especially the first combat is an absolutely poor result when it comes down to attacking the incoming strike BEFORE it actually attacks the target, when you see 59 out of 60 bombers bombing the target. I wouldn't care about my bombers being shot down AFTER they sank the enemy's carriers, you have to shoot them down before your ships go down.



CT, small brain exercise re: second combat:

28+22=X

63-X=Y

Bring about the pocket calculator and try your skills. If you got any questions why these small calculations might be important as an answer to your post,
feel free to ask.

Regarding the first combat, please at least attempt to read a complete post, the solution is out there. Promise.

I am trying not only to show extremes, since the game is governed by statistical probabilities, and player attempts to influence those probabilities.
This is why I showed a good intercept, a bad intercept which still scored, and the overall performance of the squad involved.

Is it a bit clearer now?




JocMeister -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 2:02:14 PM)

Alfred,

Come on. Iīm not trying to start an argument or a fight for that matter. Iīm trying to understand this. Sure I might be a bit dense and my English skills may not be the best. But I donīt think I deserve the kind of rude response I got from you. When I saw you had responded I had hoped I would get a insightful response and perhaps a clarification and not a totally meaningless personal insult. A simple "Read page 162 and 164 of the manual and then come back" would have been quite enough.

If you feel you need to continue throwing insults and other degenerating comments to me you are free to send me a PM instead.

Back on topic...

Lo Baron,

I just re read this four or five times but I still donīt understand [&:]

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

TBH I have no idea on the last one (the one scrambling to 37k).

On the others: I think that this is related to the timespan the fighters are scrambled in and the DL of the strike + FOW.
The DL significantly increases at the moment the first units make visual contact with the strike.

The spread tells you something about when the first planes of the squad made contact with the strike and when the last plane entered combat,
and how the information about the inbound strike varied over that timespan and was relayed to the other planes of the squadron.

If a plane of a certain squadron already made contact, the chance for the scrambling fighters of that squad to be directed at remotely the
correct inbound alt is significantly higher.

In your case this suggests that a No. 15 Sqn fighter was the first to reach interception point (not counting in VMF-212 which did not scramble any fighters),
so the rest immediately was scrambled to reported contact alt of that first fighter.

On the contrary No. 16 Sqn did not make contact until late in the fight, if it made contact with the raid at all, so it was solely scrambled to preset CAP alt.

No. 76 Sqn scrambled a couple of fighters before contact was made, and some after contact was made by other 76 Sqn elements, this why you get the between.


It really is that easy to explain.



What do you mean by "spread"? I also still donīt get why the game scrambles the fighters to a different altitude several 1000 feet above the strike and thus adding a lot of time into the "intercept time"? This is what Iīm questioning/trying to find an answer to. To someone like me that are not familiar with the underlying mechanics stuff like this look "odd" and is not easy to understand. You probably answered that exact question in the text I quoted but Iīm not getting it.

Iīm not trying to "prove something is wrong or right". Iīm very grateful people like you and Puhis are taking the time to answer. My comment about being adamant is not intended an anything else then to get an answer on why something that for someone like me looks weird isnīt.

Again, Iīm grateful that you two are talking the time to answer.

GJ,

I am listening to them. I just donīt understand! [:)]




LoBaron -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 2:25:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
What do you mean by "spread"? I also still donīt get why the game scrambles the fighters to a different altitude several 1000 feet above the strike and thus adding a lot of time into the "intercept time"? This is what Iīm questioning/trying to find an answer to. To someone like me that are not familiar with the underlying mechanics stuff like this look "odd" and is not easy to understand. You probably answered that exact question in the text I quoted but Iīm not getting it.


Sorry, that word is a bit fuzzy admittedly. By spread I mean the options for CAP to either scramble at preset, at inbound, or at a combinaiton of both altitudes.

Let me try again, maybe it is clearer then:

CAP launches fighters to the preset altitude until a fighter of that specific CAP squadron makes direct (visual) contact with the raid.
After contact has been made by fighters of the squadron, but that squad still has fighters left to be scrambled, those late-scrambling
fighters are vectored to the strike inbound altitude (or have a high chance to be vectored remotely on inbound altitude, which of those is
true I am not completely sure, but I assume for this example it is the former, not making much difference anyway).

Now, if a strike is detected and there is a single squad on CAP, you got 3 possible situations:

1) the airborne part of the squad makes visual contact and engages immediately after detection, before fighters are scrambling to intercept.
-> all fighter scrambling are immediately vectored to remotely inbound altitude.
-> the combat report looks like this:

quote:

No.15 Sqn RNZAF with Kittyhawk III (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 (preset) , scrambling fighters to 2000 (inbound).
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes


2) the airborne part of the squad does not make visual contact until the last scrambling fighter is launched, or does not make visual contact at all.
-> all fighters scrambling are initially vectored to preset altitude, from there they begin searching for the inbound strike but remain at preset alt until visual contact is made.
-> the combat report looks like this:

quote:

No.16 Sqn RNZAF with Kittyhawk III (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 (preset) , scrambling fighters to 15000 (preset).
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes


3) initially no visual contact is made, but while still some fighters are being scrambled visual contact is established.
-> first fighters get vectored to preset alt, but after visual contact is established by squadron elements the rest is scrambled to inbound alt.
-> the combat report looks like this:

quote:

No.76 Sqn RAAF with Spitfire Vc Trop (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 (preset) , scrambling fighters between 2000 (inbound) and 15000 (preset).
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes


The inbound altitude is guesswork, based on reports from already engaged fighter, so with a good mix of FOW involved. Because of this you do not get
vectors to exactly inbound alt, but rather a rough approximation.


Does this make it clearer?




JocMeister -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 6:45:18 PM)

Lo Baron,

Wow,

This is by far more complicated then I could ever anticipate. I have been reading these forums for over 6 years and I have never seen this discussed in detail before. It probably has but I have never seen it.

But I finally understand! Thank you for your explanation. Sadly I now have even more questions...[:D]

Why is this?!

quote:


Raid detected at 111 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 20000.


I see this in many of the CR I posted. Why are some fighters being scrambled to a height UNDER the raid even when the strike is visually spotted?

Why does scrambling planes of a squadron (were visual contact isnīt established) scramble to their preset height instead of the height of the incoming strike detected by radar?

Is the only thing radar contributes to earlier detection giving the fighters more time to establish eye contact? But the radar per see does nothing more? It does not help vector the CAP to the right altitude?

Doesnīt the engine simulate radio and/or fighter direction? Iīm assuming it doesnīt since you specifically wrote "of that squadron"? So its not enough for one squadron to spot the strike and vector in the rest?

Assuming it doesnīt. Is allied fighter control simulated in the game in some other aspect? Is radio?

You said earlier that my CAP wasnīt optimally set up since the gap between the fighters (10K feet) was too big. In what way does this effect?

For that matter, do the squadrons integrate with each other at all? If so how are the settings of different squadrons effecting each other? Iīm guessing per you earlier statement of my CAP setting that they are. Iīm also assuming layered CAP has something to with this. But you also emphasized "of the squadron" indicating that they are indeed working independently of one and other?

I can probably ask 30 more questions but I think Iīll start here! [;)]




ctangus -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 7:10:48 PM)

@JocMeister - early WWII radars could detect range & bearing but not altitude IIRC. Not sure what radars in the game would be the first that could detect altitude.

@LoBaron - That explanation was very helpful for me too. Thanks! [:)] I'll have to stop skipping over those lines on the combat report...




LoBaron -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 10:22:48 PM)

Just to be clear about this, I have no secret source of information others do not have access to.

I simply found out a few things about A2A pretty soon (much of my "collection" of information dates back to WitP AEīs predecessors), and then
asked the right questions (many helpfully answered by members of the dev team). Other data is simply there, you just have to know how to interprete
it without confusing root causes or mixing up data sources.

This leads me straight to one part of your questions: Many of the "why" questions I can only answer with "I donīt know". I have not developed the air model,
I donīt know what was implemented to balance, what was implemented for gameplay reasons, and what to allow for realism which the engine otherwise could not
handle. I have a few good guesses, but donīt rely on that they are always correct.

So if I try to answer those things, please take that into account. I might be pretty close to the truth but thats it.

Just a few general things people should know about combat report and animations:

The combat report and the combat animations BOTH contain information not always exclusively related to a specific single event (for example a single strike).
Rather it contains information about a time snippet (usually beginning with initial detection but often reaching far into an attacksī outbound leg), and lists EVERYTHING
that happened in the observed hex.
This means, if for some reason neighbouring CAP ventures into a hex (e.g. because the DL of units in that hex increased significantly), the planes of that CAP might be displayed
- independent of whether they participated in combat or not. This is just an example, but it is to point out that not all you see in a combat report or in animations is
related to the event you want to observe.

This is, in my opinion one of the most misunderstood facts of the air model. If you interprete a combat report, first you need to filter through the data displayed.
Otherwise you are misinterpreting what you see very fast (there are some pretty good examples on this in this thread... [;)]).

Next is, the combat report might look simple, but it is a very compressed data display, and the data is pulled from varying sources. Some contain FOW, some not, some
are directly related to a specific strike, some display general information about units in the hex.
And what most miss is: The information displayed is often worthless taken for its own, but the information gets extremely valuable if you combine data from different
points of a combat report, or together with replay and/or savegame data like the squadron or the pilots window.

Also you have to get used to the fact that often you get information about what you DONīT know, instead of what you know.
Which can be equally telling and interesting.

An easy example:

quote:

CAP engaged:
VMF-216 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes


What do you know about those 24 minutes? The answer is, next to nothing. At least not on its own.
But for example I can tell you that chances were pretty high that the initial attack was commenced by the 2 already
airborne "but not yet engaged" fighters.

How so?

We got 2 plane(s) not yet engaged, and 5 on standby. The scrambling fighters were immediately vectored to inbound altitude.
This tells me that the 2 plane(s) not yet engaged - probably both, in theory its possible just one of them - were the first to make visual contact
with the inbound strike. Only after that the standby fighters began to scramble.
If this wasnīt the case, if it was one of the standby fighters who made contact first, the initial scrambling fighters would have been
vectored to group patrol alt.

This suggest strongly that the "24 minutes required for all fighters to reach interception" referred to the last of those 5 standby fighters.

Which further tells me that I know absolutely nothing about when the initial visual contact was made. It could have been on simple coincidence
3 minutes after radar contact by the two airborne fighters. It could have been 20 minutes after detection, right before the first of the standby fighters
got ready. Or 10 minutes, right before the first standby fighter got ready.
I have no clue. But this way at least I know what information I can gather and what is hidden, and maybe only identifyable with the additional
help of the combat animations and the save after the replay.



JocMeister, Iīll try to answer your questions, but please note that I speculate as much as any other non-dev. I might just do it for a little longer than some already.

quote:

I see this in many of the CR I posted. Why are some fighters being scrambled to a height UNDER the raid even when the strike is visually spotted?


My explanation would be either an a bit linear FOW, or to emulate the fact that scrambling fighters are usually "climbing to intercept", and this gives the best abstraction
based on what the air engine can do.

If I was to bet, Iīd say the correct answer is that latter.

quote:

Why does scrambling planes of a squadron (were visual contact isnīt established) scramble to their preset height instead of the height of the incoming strike detected by radar?


As ctangus also assumes, I think altitude data was quite difficult to get in WWII.
You have only a few tools to abstract the fact that in WWII getting an exact radar contact was one of the most difficult tasks. In WitP AE you need to abstract those things,
and use a few variables possible for that. This is one reason.
I think the other is simply for gameplay reasons. What sense does it make to set alt bands if it does not have multiple chances to impact a battle outcome? Scramble altitude
is perfectly fitting to be (ab)used for that.

quote:

Doesnīt the engine simulate radio and/or fighter direction? Iīm assuming it doesnīt since you specifically wrote "of that squadron"? So its not enough for one squadron to spot the strike and vector in the rest?


I was emphasising squadron, because it is the only thing I got proof for. There could be some inter-squadron interaction, but if there is it is highly random and possible rare. I donīt think it happens
at all. On the third question my answer would be "no, its not enough".

quote:

Assuming it doesnīt. Is allied fighter control simulated in the game in some other aspect? Is radio?


Fighter control, yes, in a very abstracted way. This is why you sometimes find CAP wandering around in hexes which are not their base of origin.
Radio, not as a specific technology, and not as something the Allies had and the Japanese didnīt, or did not use. Highly abstracted, probably yes,
but only in connection with equally abstracted fighter control, radar, all that stuff.

quote:

You said earlier that my CAP wasnīt optimally set up since the gap between the fighters (10K feet) was too big. In what way does this effect?


As said, fighters need to make visual contact to engage. If your purpose of layered CAP is to have a bottom layer pulling down high flying attackers, and then enabling
a top layer to bounce those attackers, the altitude delta between the layers should be so that visual detection is in easy range for both. Otherwise you reduce chances
that the layers can support each other. As you now know strikes 10k+ below CAP altituades have a pretty nice chance to pass through unmolested. Same rules apply
to visual distance between CAP layers.

quote:

For that matter, do the squadrons integrate with each other at all? If so how are the settings of different squadrons effecting each other? Iīm guessing per you earlier statement of my CAP setting that they are. Iīm also assuming layered CAP has something to with this. But you also emphasized "of the squadron" indicating that they are indeed working independently of one and other?


CAP does not really "coordinate". Each squad acts as the other was not there. So spotting has to be made (at least everything I have seen suggests this) by each squadron individually.
But after visual has been established the squadrons act mutually supporting, not because the game engine actively simulates this, but because one single event (e.g. a fighter from Strike sqn A diving to attack)
leads to the next (a fighter of CAP sqn A trying to evade) which leads to the next (a fighter from CAP sqn B bouncing the fighter from Strike sqn A).
This obviousely can also happen within the same quadron, but there it is enhanced by formations (group, element, wing,...).

Numbers rule. The more planes you got on scene the higher the chance is that such events as above can happen.


Hope that helps.




Gräfin Zeppelin -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 10:36:39 PM)

Ma head... it hurts after trying to understand all this stuff here. Interesting stuff tho.




pws1225 -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 10:49:53 PM)

Truly so, Graf, truly so.




Wirraway_Ace -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 11:23:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


Why is this?!

quote:


Raid detected at 111 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 20000.


I see this in many of the CR I posted. Why are some fighters being scrambled to a height UNDER the raid even when the strike is visually spotted?


There is almost certainly a random that scrambles CAP to the wrong altitude to simulate inaccurate or confused reporting. This is why I believe you will see some CAP scrambled too low or too high, including up to max altitude.




Wirraway_Ace -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/18/2012 11:43:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance


Initially....I chalked this result up to bad die rolls and my own rushed turn where I left sll the CAP at 31,000.



But then this happened the next turn against CAP that was layered from 31,000' all the way down to 9000':



Morning Air attack on TF, near Saumlaki at 78,117

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 111 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 15
G4M1 Betty x 54



Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 168


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 14 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 5 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVE Corregidor, Torpedo hits 1
CVE Barnes
CVE Chenango, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CVE Long Island
CVE Nassau, Torpedo hits 1
CVE Suwannee, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CVE Santee, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Anzio, Torpedo hits 1



Aircraft Attacking:
24 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
26 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VF-26 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-33 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-35 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-41 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
10 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
17 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-1F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 21000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
25 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-4F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 16 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-6F with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
21 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-111 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
10 planes vectored on to bombers

Fuel storage explosion on CVE Suwannee
Fuel storage explosion on CVE Santee



Here there were only 15 escorting A6M2s....,yet my Hellcats only made 6 passes at the Bettys before A2A was through. It almost seems as if the # of fighters placed on CAP is irrelevant....it seems that A2A combat lasts for a certain period of time before the bombing starts regardlees of the # of fighters on CAP. If 200 Hellcats cant even handle 25 A6M2s.....what happens when there are 300-400 escorts and bombers involved or more? The average Hellcat pilot in this engagement had 70 exp and 70 A2A skill.



I would have liked to have tested this some more but after 2 turns Ive run out of CVEs. Has anyone seen this type of result before? Is the game WAD?

According to the combat report, 129 fighters during the 2nd strike had time to intercept the attack and were vectored in on the enemy. 25 of those fightesr were from 2 groups whose time to intercept left them only a couple of minutes to make attacks. Still, over 100 fighters should have had multiple chances at the escorts and bombers. Should have been a slaughter...




AdmSpruance -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 3:22:27 AM)

Wirraway_Ace...thank you for posting on the actual data. In regards to WWII radar and altitude.....the Germans were always able to construct Allied bomber altitude from their radars and were able create flak boxes with their AA units to hammer Allied bombers.




SqzMyLemon -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 4:33:55 AM)

Air combat in this game leaves me scratching my head wondering what just happened more often than not. WAD? No idea, but doing my best to understand WTF is going on and why.




castor troy -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 7:53:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
It works like a charm? According to the two combats you post you shot down ONE Nell out of 60 in the first combat before they released their bombs (the rest obviously afterwards) and in the second combat you shot down THREE bombers before they attacked the target. Both of your examples support the op point of view, not yours actually. [&:] In both cases you had far over 30 min pre warning time and both times the pre warning times were higher than the time it takes ALL of your fighters to intercept the bombers. Doesn't look like a good result to me at all. Surely not a fantasy result like the op's one but especially the first combat is an absolutely poor result when it comes down to attacking the incoming strike BEFORE it actually attacks the target, when you see 59 out of 60 bombers bombing the target. I wouldn't care about my bombers being shot down AFTER they sank the enemy's carriers, you have to shoot them down before your ships go down.



CT, small brain exercise re: second combat:

28+22=X

63-X=Y

Bring about the pocket calculator and try your skills. If you got any questions why these small calculations might be important as an answer to your post,
feel free to ask.

Regarding the first combat, please at least attempt to read a complete post, the solution is out there. Promise.

I am trying not only to show extremes, since the game is governed by statistical probabilities, and player attempts to influence those probabilities.
This is why I showed a good intercept, a bad intercept which still scored, and the overall performance of the squad involved.

Is it a bit clearer now?



wohoo, sorry to have misread your second combat after seeing that you have shot down ONE bomber in your first combat. So sorry that I`ve read the 28 as 38 in your second combat, let me be blamed for the rest of my life.

You don't show the extreme, no, you show a combat that perfectly matches what the op said. No? So what did you do wrong in your first combat?




LoBaron -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 7:58:38 AM)

Good observation Wirraway_Ace. There is just again the question where the data comes
from.

The number in front of message "vectored onto bombers" simply states how many of the available
fighters were vectored onto the bombers, independent of whether they finally hade combat or not
(instead of engaging CAP first).

It tells you about how they were ordered to fight by the air engine, not what they actually
did.

In context of the high loss numbers of CAP fighters, independent on what they were ordered
to do, a percentage of them engaged with the escort (and got a bloody nose).

It still does not tell you how many of the fighters actually made contact with the raid, and
how many of those got through to the bombers, "time to reach interception" only says something
about when the latest fighter would be able to reach the strike, not neccesarily that he did.

If a strike is inbound @10k detected 50mins out, the time to reach interception is 25, but all
CAP was scrambled to 31k, there might be ample time for intercept but still no combat.
If it is a spread (e.g. 9k to 31k), again, you cannot tell how large a percentage actually entered combat,
and when it did, and how many fighters missed the strike completely. For this you need to watch the
combat animation.

AdmSpruances post suggests there was very little combat, but obviousely still enough to lose a relatively
high number of CAP fighters.

Standby fighters usually need a while to get ready. The spread (scrambling fighters between 11000 and 20000)
hints that the first standby fighters still were scrambled to preset alt instead of inbound alt.
This suggests that the percentage of CAP fighters engaged was relatively small (only a fraction of the 100
planes available in theory), and that they engaged relatively late in the time window available.
As I mentioned, the combat report (sadly) leaves a lot of stuff open for speculation. How many fighters
fought whom at what time in the engagement is one of those missing bits.


What I find a bit weird is that ALL squads were vectored on the bombers, I have seen this, but not very
often. It means that all squads were at a disadvantage if caught by the escorts, and from the loss figures
it seems like the escort performed well. (skill/exp delta? Just an idea.)

I wonder why all squads got the vector on bombers, andd I have no idea what the trigger for this is.

Admittedly this is an aspect of the combat report that seems strange.




castor troy -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 8:10:58 AM)

PBEM example



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Tawi Tawi at 72,92

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.

Estimated time to target is 30 minutes


Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 71
B5N1 Kate x 4
B5N2 Kate x 41
D3A1 Val x 55



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 129


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed
B5N1 Kate: 3 damaged
B5N1 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 21 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 7 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 6 destroyed, 20 damaged
D3A1 Val: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
CV Enterprise
BB Washington, Torpedo hits 1
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Yorktown
CV Saratoga
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1
CA New Orleans
BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1


according to the great tips you get in this thread, LMAO, the altitude of my fighters should be perfectly suited. Pre warning is just fine I guess? Cap manages to down 10 Zeroes, 11 Vals and 2 Kates. Two dozen aircraft in halve an hour is quite an achievement.

Now I am not really surprised because that's how it has been pretty much all the time and that's not my point. My point is that you just can't do anything about how the routine works and all those tips won't change a thing so ppl shouldn't be fooled by some guys' fantasy of what they can influence in the game. Same as saying an air HQ would help coordination, lol, that's another dead horse so I'll leave it.



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
6 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
10 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x B5N1 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
11 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F4F-4 Wildcat (3 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VF-42 with F4F-4 Wildcat (3 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (7 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VF-8 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
VF-71 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Wasp


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sandakan at 71,88

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 52



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 84
SBD-3 Dauntless x 186
TBF-1 Avenger x 108


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 7 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 6 damaged

a dozen Wildcats, plus two bombers were shot down, according to all the great tips here, Cap alt was just perfect

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 3, on fire
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 3
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Shoho, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires
DD Arashio, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Abukuma, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires
CVL Ryuho, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Arare, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hayashio, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
DD Oshio
CL Naka, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires
DD Mutsuki
DD Kasumi
CA Nachi
DD Akizuki
DD Takanami, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Akatsuki
DD Naganami



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
18 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
5 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
18 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
18 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
18 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
9 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
11 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
18 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
18 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
5 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
9 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
13 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
9 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
5 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
5 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
1 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
5 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
Kaga-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
Zuikaku-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
Junyo-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
Shoho-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Junyo
Ammo storage explosion on CV Zuikaku
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Zuikaku
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVL Ryuho
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVL Shoho
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Arare
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CL Naka
Ammo storage explosion on CV Akagi
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Akagi
Ammo storage explosion on CVL Ryuho
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Kaga
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Chikuma
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Arashio


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Jolo at 72,94

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 32 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N1 Kate x 4
B5N2 Kate x 10
D3A1 Val x 11



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
B5N1 Kate: 2 damaged
B5N1 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
B5N2 Kate: 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses


Allied Ships
CL Columbia
BC Repulse
DD Hammann
CL Cleveland
DD Mustin
CLAA Atlanta
DD Russell



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x B5N1 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Tawi Tawi at 72,92

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 9



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 109


Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 5 destroyed

No Allied losses



CAP engaged:
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8080 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 79 minutes
VF-42 with F4F-4 Wildcat (4 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
15 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
VF-8 with F4F-4 Wildcat (4 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VF-71 with F4F-4 Wildcat (3 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VF-2 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Jolo at 72,94

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 20
D3A1 Val x 10



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 36


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed
D3A1 Val: 4 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Bomb hits 1
DD O'Brien


Zeroes lose 8 or 9, bombers untouched

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
VF-42 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
VF-71 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
VF-8 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tawi Tawi at 71,91

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 15
B5N2 Kate x 19



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 56


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed


4 Zeroes and 1 bomber claimed by the whole Cap


Allied Ships
CA Quincy
CV Wasp
CV Lexington
BB Washington
CV Saratoga
CV Hornet



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (1 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 3000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-8 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 8000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-2 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 0 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-42 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers


edit 2: I really love when the game gives you these messages about fighters being vectored onto the bombers because the escorts are greatly outnumbered, then you see all those fighters vectored on to the bombers shooting down ONE of them... [sm=crazy.gif]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sandakan at 71,88

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 60
SBD-3 Dauntless x 172
TBF-1 Avenger x 87


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 6 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 3 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed by flak

so few Cap fighters left that you can't expect anything by this point

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryuho, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 15, heavy fires
CA Tone, Bomb hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Samidare, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 13, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Kazegumo, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Mutsuki
DD Oshio, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Naganami
DD Akizuki, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Arare, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kasumi
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage



Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x F4F-4 Wildcat sweeping at 15000 feet
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
18 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
15 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
9 x F4F-4 Wildcat sweeping at 15000 feet
12 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
10 x F4F-4 Wildcat sweeping at 15000 feet
18 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
12 x F4F-4 Wildcat sweeping at 15000 feet
6 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
17 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
17 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
3 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
17 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
6 x F4F-4 Wildcat sweeping at 15000 feet
2 x F4F-4 Wildcat sweeping at 15000 feet
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
5 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
1 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
1 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
1 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring a Japanese AV
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Akagi
Magazine explodes on DD Samidare
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Samidare
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring BB Kirishima
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Kazegumo
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Akizuki
Fuel storage explosion on CV Akagi
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring a Japanese CA
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring a Hiryu class CV
Ammo storage explosion on CV Junyo



fine with me if ppl keep thinking they could influence this or that, especially when it comes down to air routines, have fun with it and keep doing AAR's to show their magic abilities where we all can read and learn. The examples have been off by such a margin from reality and have always been, but like it has been mentioned by all sides in this thread, this isn't the point of the discussion anyway. But to think to be able to change the borked outcomes into spot on results by clicking altitude up and down is very optimistic.

In the above example, all that saved the USN was THUNDERSTORMS and the flak in Babes. Cap is nothing but a nuisance and always has been. Works well with 10 vs 10 aircraft perhaps, fails right at the point when there are more than 20 aircraft involved.

Having a lucky die roll and thunderstorms in your CV hex means more than all the tips on how to set and handle Cap and I would stand down 100% of my fighters on Cap for a thunderstorm compared to clear sky and the perfect Cap setting of the experts on this wonderful forum that wouldn't do anything but to fail to defend the fleet.



edit: a side note on CV stacking, something I don't care either, despite that every expert here would say one should not do it because coordinated strikes would be literally impossible. Well, play the game, do some tests. I have been using my Allied carriers in one single TF for years and the results are just great and far better than having them split in separate TFs. As you can see, both in the morning and afternoon, my CV TF that started off with nearly 500 carrier based aircraft launched a fully coordinated strike. Must be another LOL moment.




obvert -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 2:59:16 PM)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Tawi Tawi at 72,92

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.

Estimated time to target is 30 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like thunderstorms might have been the problem here.




witpqs -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 3:28:09 PM)

I would just like to point out that CAP is not supposed to have magic bullets. Do everything "right" and some attackers can still get through. I think that's how it should be, YMMV.




GreyJoy -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 3:36:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I would just like to point out that CAP is not supposed to have magic bullets. Do everything "right" and some attackers can still get through. I think that's how it should be, YMMV.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1






Puhis -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 3:46:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I would just like to point out that CAP is not supposed to have magic bullets. Do everything "right" and some attackers can still get through. I think that's how it should be, YMMV.


Also I'd like to point out that Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 30 minutes does not mean that CAP fighters have 30 minutes time to engage incoming strike. Only if they magically teleport 80 NM when first radar contact is made... I'd say that first CAP fighters might have 20 minutes or less. Most of the fighters have only a few minute before bombers start bombing run.




castor troy -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 4:25:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Tawi Tawi at 72,92

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.

Estimated time to target is 30 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like thunderstorms might have been the problem here.




not really, rumors about weather afecting Cap performance could not be confirmed in any of the hundreds of turns I ran head to head just to confirm (or not) any of the theories (just for me, because no matter what ppl would still say it isn't true). Started to run these turns when the discussion about strato sweeps came up and came to my conclusion, then ran the turns when the discussion about coordination came up and came to my conclusion, then about pre Cap flak and CV stacking and yes, I came to a conclusion. Funnily enough, my conclusion about something being bugged or flawed was then confirmed when it was identified as a bug or can be seen in my AARs when I have been doing what you shouldn't do at all for years and it works just perfectly (or not, like having an air HQ to think it would help in coordinating strikes - or even worse, to have an air HQ at a base and have both under the same command, lol).

As to Cap, in the end it's nothing but a die roll for me and that's it. Run 200 H2H turns and while you first may think "heck, did this or that influence the outcome" you may be surprised at some point and say, god damn, it didn't. You will see awful lots of sunshine encounters with your Cap being in the perfect position (altitude as ppl point out here) and you get the same result with no combat before and ample pre warning time. So, just a die roll I guess.




castor troy -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 4:28:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I would just like to point out that CAP is not supposed to have magic bullets. Do everything "right" and some attackers can still get through. I think that's how it should be, YMMV.


Also I'd like to point out that Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 30 minutes does not mean that CAP fighters have 30 minutes time to engage incoming strike. Only if they magically teleport 80 NM when first radar contact is made... I'd say that first CAP fighters might have 20 minutes or less. Most of the fighters have only a few minute before bombers start bombing run.



may be fine then that all those fighters manage to shoot down only a handful of bombers. Unfortunately, real life fighters couldn't teleport either. But the discussion here wasn't about realism (which the routine fully lacks) but the need to have one's fighters just a couple of thousand feet above the incoming strike (which I said means nothing).

So while this discussion was going on, I get the wonderful PBEM result of two sides carriers having their Cap right at the perfect position (according to the tips on this thread) getting the same bad result as if you would have them at 1000ft or 40000ft. Believe what you would like to believe, it's all about believing.




castor troy -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 4:33:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I would just like to point out that CAP is not supposed to have magic bullets. Do everything "right" and some attackers can still get through. I think that's how it should be, YMMV.



absolutely. And I never said Cap should be bullet prove nor a shield, but it should have an effect, which it completely lacks compared to real life events. Don't know if I should say I'm fine with it because I'm not but like I have been told, this thread is not to be meant to discuss realism of it or not.

I'm not talking about magic bullets either, which is why I said it wasn't about the settings of the op, but just about a lucky or bad die roll which got nothing to do with the Cap being 2000ft higher or 5000ft or 10000ft lower when you only get one kill for 20 fighters ordered on Cap resulting in 20 kills of a carrier TF having 400 fighters available for Cap.




castor troy -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 4:38:40 PM)

Just to point out, I would LOVE to be able to influence things like coordination or Cap to get realistic outcomes, no matter if I have to change altitudes, leaders, HQs, ranges, bomber types or to kill a chicken each and every day if it would help. Neither hundreds of H2H turns just trying to make it work (with all the suggestions) nor even far more PBEM turns over all the years showed something that really makes a difference and what is the outcome? Forget about doing a chicken dance, it won't help you.

Just like Miller stated in one of his precise posts in this thread, set them to 15000ft and forget about it.




aztez -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 4:50:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Just to point out, I would LOVE to be able to influence things like coordination or Cap to get realistic outcomes, no matter if I have to change altitudes, leaders, HQs, ranges, bomber types or to kill a chicken each and every day if it would help. Neither hundreds of H2H turns just trying to make it work (with all the suggestions) nor even far more PBEM turns over all the years showed something that really makes a difference and what is the outcome? Forget about doing a chicken dance, it won't help you.

Just like Miller stated in one of his precise posts in this thread, set them to 15000ft and forget about it.


That pretty sums it up. I have tried layered CAP with carriers.. single alltitude etc.

Pretty much spoils down to having either good or bad dice roll.

Also feel Miller hit the nail in the head with his very simple analysis.

Oh and I feel for Admiral Spruance.. it is annoying as hell! [:)]




LoBaron -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 6:06:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
So while this discussion was going on, I get the wonderful PBEM result of two sides carriers having their Cap right at the perfect position (according to the tips on this thread) getting the same bad result [...]


Ok, just because I am bored, gimme 5 minutes to go through that stuff, I left your bold text like it is, my comments and highlights are in red:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Tawi Tawi at 72,92

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.

Estimated time to target is 30 minutes


Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 71
B5N1 Kate x 4
B5N2 Kate x 41
D3A1 Val x 55



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 129


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed
B5N1 Kate: 3 damaged
B5N1 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 21 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 7 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 6 destroyed, 20 damaged
D3A1 Val: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
CV Enterprise
BB Washington, Torpedo hits 1
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Yorktown
CV Saratoga
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1
CA New Orleans
BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1


according to the great tips you get in this thread, LMAO, the altitude of my fighters should be perfectly suited. Pre warning is just fine I guess? Cap manages to down 10 Zeroes, 11 Vals and 2 Kates. Two dozen aircraft in halve an hour is quite an achievement.
--> half an hour is BS, you know it. Your CAP had to battle through a 71 plane - if this was an original complement which is plausible - crack escorts. What exactly did you expect? Armageddon?

Now I am not really surprised because that's how it has been pretty much all the time and that's not my point. My point is that you just can't do anything about how the routine works and all those tips won't change a thing so ppl shouldn't be fooled by some guys' fantasy of what they can influence in the game. Same as saying an air HQ would help coordination, lol, that's another dead horse so I'll leave it.


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sandakan at 71,88

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 52



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 84
SBD-3 Dauntless x 186
TBF-1 Avenger x 108


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 7 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 6 damaged

a dozen Wildcats, plus two bombers were shot down, according to all the great tips here, Cap alt was just perfect
--> please tell me you do not believe you can set Cap at the sweet spot and will achieve anything in this situation. You think it makes sense to rant about altitude when the defender is outnumbered 6 to 1
in planes total and 3 to 2 in fighters?! While the first example could be excused as simple oversight, this is ridiculous.



The only thing your examples suggest, is that you have no idea where to look at for relevant pieces of information in a combat report. Your bolded part is completely irrelevant.
Altitude settings help, but if another important variable dominates combat, as in your ill chosen example, it cannot change a final outcome.

I will stop there because usually the result of explaining something to you is another senseless 2 page combat report where you try to demonstrate some issue by looking in the wrong direction.




Puhis -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 6:27:09 PM)

Castor's examples show (IMO) main weakness of this game: totally ahistorical battles that we see. I don't think Japanese carriers ever launch single 200 plane strike (well maybe PH), or US carriers never launch single 350 plane strike, at least not until 1945. There's no historical comparison what we see in this game.

I just hope air war would be more smaller, "balanced" strikes. Now it's usually one huge lump of planes and then leftovers. Game engine have known difficulties handling big numbers.




LoBaron -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 7:00:30 PM)

You got a point there Puhis. Hindsight makes historical gameplay close to impossible, and WWII lacks the massive eyelevel engagements
that are possible with historical ressources.

That is the real drawback of the grand campaign.


Because of this, my heart is still with the Guadalcanal scenario.

It is large enough to give a challange, but limits the ressources available to the player so much that it is impossible to move into
the realm of massed engagements never witnessed in the war.






John Lansford -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/19/2012 7:41:48 PM)

I checked my CAP altitude at all the bases where they weren't engaging incoming enemy bombers. Yep, they're all at 20k or higher, the bombers are coming in at 10k or lower. I reset all my fighter CAP squadrons to 10-15k and suddenly they're engaging bombers every time. One 20 plane attack had 12 shot down, the rest ran for it. My TF's were able to unload unmolested at my CentPac atolls I have captured as well. When I set my CV CAP altitude down to 15k, they too began intercepting and engaging enemy fighters and bombers. Looks like setting CAP at 20k or higher isn't always a good idea.




castor troy -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/20/2012 9:07:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
So while this discussion was going on, I get the wonderful PBEM result of two sides carriers having their Cap right at the perfect position (according to the tips on this thread) getting the same bad result [...]


Ok, just because I am bored, gimme 5 minutes to go through that stuff, I left your bold text like it is, my comments and highlights are in red:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Tawi Tawi at 72,92

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.

Estimated time to target is 30 minutes


Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 71
B5N1 Kate x 4
B5N2 Kate x 41
D3A1 Val x 55



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 129


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed
B5N1 Kate: 3 damaged
B5N1 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 21 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 7 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 6 destroyed, 20 damaged
D3A1 Val: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
CV Enterprise
BB Washington, Torpedo hits 1
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Yorktown
CV Saratoga
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1
CA New Orleans
BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1


according to the great tips you get in this thread, LMAO, the altitude of my fighters should be perfectly suited. Pre warning is just fine I guess? Cap manages to down 10 Zeroes, 11 Vals and 2 Kates. Two dozen aircraft in halve an hour is quite an achievement.
--> half an hour is BS, you know it. Your CAP had to battle through a 71 plane - if this was an original complement which is plausible - crack escorts. What exactly did you expect? Armageddon?

Now I am not really surprised because that's how it has been pretty much all the time and that's not my point. My point is that you just can't do anything about how the routine works and all those tips won't change a thing so ppl shouldn't be fooled by some guys' fantasy of what they can influence in the game. Same as saying an air HQ would help coordination, lol, that's another dead horse so I'll leave it.


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sandakan at 71,88

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 52



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 84
SBD-3 Dauntless x 186
TBF-1 Avenger x 108


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 7 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 6 damaged

a dozen Wildcats, plus two bombers were shot down, according to all the great tips here, Cap alt was just perfect
--> please tell me you do not believe you can set Cap at the sweet spot and will achieve anything in this situation. You think it makes sense to rant about altitude when the defender is outnumbered 6 to 1
in planes total and 3 to 2 in fighters?! While the first example could be excused as simple oversight, this is ridiculous.



The only thing your examples suggest, is that you have no idea where to look at for relevant pieces of information in a combat report. Your bolded part is completely irrelevant.
Altitude settings help, but if another important variable dominates combat, as in your ill chosen example, it cannot change a final outcome.

I will stop there because usually the result of explaining something to you is another senseless 2 page combat report where you try to demonstrate some issue by looking in the wrong direction.



yeah well known who got no clue, lol, how many times have you proved that in the past? Wanna go through it again and again and again? Yes? No? Funny that you speak and speak and speak and never show anything that proves what you say? Where are your oh so great results? Never seen them in the little AAR you did where you haven't had much but a couple of cut down cr that showed you doing strato sweeps, lol, after years of discussing them. And I tried to look for anything special in your AAR, just that I couldn't find it. There was nothing in there that could support anything you speak about all the time, your combats didn't look any different than those of 99,9% of the PBEMs. How that can be possible when you know the game so well is beyond me, with your knowledge you manage to influence 0.1% or what? Not notable.

Funny once more, the op posts a combat and you tell him, he did something wrong, actually he should have his Cap just a couple of thousand feet above the enemy's strike and he would have done fine. LMAO I've thought, another fantasy statement that can't be recreated in the game but hey, let him bring up his point of view. Ok, luckily enough, a PBEM result pops up right when this nonsense is spread, having Cap right there where Mr. I know it so well says it should be. Result? LMAO, the involved 350-400 fighters in total on both sides claim something like 50 aircraft, one for every 8 fighters, despite being at the perfect altitude, which seems to have been what this thread is about??? As you said yourselve, we'll leave out realism, which is one big step forward for you compared to where you were one or two years back when this game was rewriting historic reality with all official documents and written books being wrong I guess.

You will always find a funny explanation for this or that, just that it got nothing to do what the game actually is doing. Try to stop the endless, wrong, summaries of what ppl should do and run H2H turns, that should a) open your eyes and b) stop the spreading of wrong information. Or at least spend the time to drive a couple of PBEM through a couple of years which isn't H2H testing but still at least something to look at, if there is no time to do that, then stop spreading wrong info that someone might pick up trying to do something that doesn't work, even if it wouldn't harm him. There were 71 Zeroes in the first strike, so that's the problem now. Mhm and that must be the reason why only 10 were shot down by the whole Cap. IIRC I didn't say the Zeroes were hit hard and that's the reason the bombers got through fine, nothing of the strike was hit. Flak claimed more aircraft than Cap of 6 CV did. Heck, but I had everything like Mr. Smarty told us. How comes?

At some point you will just run out of arguments that are not true. That's the only problem for me, the ongoing spreading of stuff on the forum that got nothing to do with the game, if you would have actually run more than a couple of turns that you shared with a PBEM partner playing the same side, you perhaps (probably not) would get into the game far enough to notice all your fantasy about what the game is doing is actually not happening. That would be groundhog day for you like you have gone through over and over again in the past. In your world, you probably still think an air HQ helps to coordinate a strike? If you would have ever run just a couple of dozen H2H turns just looking at strikes and fiddling around with stuff you would have found out a lot of things, just not those that suit you. But without working on it, all you can do is to GUESS and that's all you did in the past and what you are still doing, even if you should have had enough luck at some point to actually guess right. Pity you got so much bad luck. Iīm on the latest official patch, you might be using an unofficial, not published special patch michaelm provided especially for you, but that would be a whole different game.

You know, all your typing is nothing but a bluff and like I've said before, Miller is spot on. [&o] His whole statement is one or two sentences but he's spot on, far more than you will ever get into the game. Actually, you should leave it to those that have gone through a multitude of turns more than you have as it may make more sense to come to a conclusion after repeatably seeing things instead of thinking to know what is going on after having it seen once or twice, pardon me my exaggeration, it may have been three or four times.

In all the years I can only remember once you have done something really useful, which was providing your saves from the game with rob that lead to squashing the pre Cap flak bug. Now how did that discussion start? There was a majority of players saying there is something seriously wrong with pre Cap flak as it just can't be that way with one standing up saying (as always) it was spot on the way it was. Trying to prove his point of view (that might not be true actually, you may not be that evil) one provided a couple of safes and voila, oops there was a bug. Thank you for supporting bug busting, otherwise that one might still be in the game and the worst thing, it would be still discussed on a monthly basis. As it stands, pre Cap flak hasn't been brought up for I don't know how long, threads about it just vanished right after michaelm fired out the patch that solved it.

No matter what one will tell you, you won't believe it anyway that you can't influence the outcome just by setting the altitude a couple of thousand ft higher or lower. But if you want to continue to believe your own fantasy, fine with me, you will just never be able to provide prove for it, while the AAR section is full of results as above and the same as the op's result, not matching your fantasy. Sorry to say. Die rolls will give you results that are ok, that are perfectly realistically or that are totally off or are just like the majority, which means most of the strike will get through. And it will happen independent of your altitude setting at 10000ft or 20000ft.




castor troy -> RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 (11/20/2012 9:19:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I checked my CAP altitude at all the bases where they weren't engaging incoming enemy bombers. Yep, they're all at 20k or higher, the bombers are coming in at 10k or lower. I reset all my fighter CAP squadrons to 10-15k and suddenly they're engaging bombers every time. One 20 plane attack had 12 shot down, the rest ran for it. My TF's were able to unload unmolested at my CentPac atolls I have captured as well. When I set my CV CAP altitude down to 15k, they too began intercepting and engaging enemy fighters and bombers. Looks like setting CAP at 20k or higher isn't always a good idea.



and then you will see results (like happening in my PBEM right around the same turns like my example is coming from) when I send in my bombers at 6000ft and my opponent has all his fighters around 30-31000ft because he was afraid of my strato sweeps and his fighters engage my bombers just fine. Perfectly fine and you can see this on and on. Then you will see it repeatadly when you have your fighters at 15000ft, ample pre warning and the bombers at 10000ft and they fly right through without your fighters doing anything at all while you have a WTF moment once more.




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