RE: Defending Mother Russia (Full Version)

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Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 1:55:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I think Harry has run too far too fast in this one.


You may be right Michael, perhaps I retreated too quickly or too far at times because I was too worried about encircelements based on my reading of Speedy and M60A's AARs. But I tried to hold him where I could. He didn't make too much headway in the North until T10 and even then that was due more to my poor troop positioning than it was to my retreating too far. I didn't retreat from the landbridge until T5 and if you go back and look at his fuel situatuon I think you'll agree I had no choice. In the south he didn't cross the Dnepr until T6, while I note Pelton crossed on T4 in your game. I was actually trying to take a page out of your playbook in this game; which if I understand it correctly, is to preserve the Russian army and set up defensive lines further east where the Germans will have supply problems and can't use HQBUs. Unfortunately this plan is not working against Saper as every turn he has 5 or 6 motorized units with 30 to 40 MPs, often on consecutive turns.

I'm pretty sure that you or FlaviusX could defeat Saper and I would love to watch you do it. Not because I have any animosity towards Saper, he is most coutreous opponent. But because I'd love to see how you did it. Howver, until he figures out how to play a server game I expect that isn't going to happen.




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 1:57:28 AM)

T11 North After Moves

I rail North Front and NW Front to relative safety. And to think just a few short turns ago I thought I might be able to actually hold Leningrad this game. Instead most of the industry in Leningrad is now toast.


[image]local://upfiles/14737/3997DBD3E9CF47BCABCA099593D25937.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 1:59:03 AM)

T11 Moscow Area after my moves.

Things are going to get ugly for me here very soon


[image]local://upfiles/14737/946291A8083646699028C9338245F4B6.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 2:00:35 AM)

T11 Tula to Voronezh after my moves.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/87DF74945BAF43779963EA411021BFC4.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 2:01:42 AM)

T11 South after my moves
Iím trying to keep him away from Rostov this turn so I can evacuate the industry next turn. The activation of Army Groups A and B and the fall of Stalingrad in 1941 are both distinct possibilitie


[image]local://upfiles/14737/E26720DAD3084C13A193E2C7C5A80FCE.jpg[/image]




Michael T -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 2:08:33 AM)

FWIW I donít have a fuel exploit. If you are worried that our return game will be somehow exploited by myself then I will be happy to release you from it. Up to you. We can wait till you are happy with the rule set or not even bother with it at all. I plenty of other offers for games. Right now though I am very focused on our current game.




Michael T -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 2:13:30 AM)

It's a fine line Harry. When to run, how far and when. Not an easy skill to master.

Sorry to hijack your thread. I will refrain from baiting herr Pelton on it again :)

Yes if Sapper ever can manage a server game I would be happy to play him.




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 3:09:29 AM)

For comparison purposes I am posting below some screen shots from T11 of my first game against Saper. A good part of his vastly improved position in our current game is due simply to his being a much better player. For example in our first game not only did he not create the extended Lvov pocket, I was able to break the smaller (usual) Lvov pocket he did create. But I believe at least as vital to his success in our current game has been his excellent use of air supply to his motorized and, to a lesser extent, panzer divisions.

T11 North 1st Game.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/2E3F9B4659A0495AB4012DC41FE07EAF.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 3:10:28 AM)

T11 Moscow 1st Game

[image]local://upfiles/14737/9A59345880554BF79C184C8EEC7DCCC9.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 3:11:29 AM)

T11 Centre 1st game

[image]local://upfiles/14737/3AE9420D2D944EF0A9012B120036C2B3.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 3:12:33 AM)

T11 Kusk to Kharkov 1st Game

[image]local://upfiles/14737/71C1844ADD1E41EB99BB9E969C39B6C3.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 3:13:38 AM)

T11 South 1st Game

[image]local://upfiles/14737/F1DB1AF1F93947EBB908EAFD07C12635.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 5:50:06 AM)

Wow I totally forgot about our game and I had forgot you were HB heheehe.

You are very much an improved player for sure.




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 6:30:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Wow I totally forgot about our game and I had forgot you were HB heheehe.

You are very much an improved player for sure.


Um, I don't think I've ever played you Pelton. The above are screen shots from my first game against Saper with us playing the same sides as our current game. I only posted these to illustrate how improved a German player Saper has become. In fact as our game above went on he got better and better, but it was too late for him to overcome his intial inexperience. Well to be truthful I guess I had an ulterior motive, namely to show I'm not a complete imbecile at this game. In fact prior to my current game against Saper I had never lost as the Russians; but this is probably only the 2nd or 3rd game I have played against someone who really knew what they were doing.

I would love to play you sometime Pelton, but my time is limited so I can only play 1 game at a time. In the meantime go do your turn against Michael T [:-] (he paid me to say that).





janh -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 11:48:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
You may be right Michael, perhaps I retreated too quickly or too far at times because I was too worried about encircelements based on my reading of Speedy and M60A's AARs. But I tried to hold him where I could. He didn't make too much headway in the North until T10 and even then that was due more to my poor troop positioning than it was to my retreating too far. I didn't retreat from the landbridge until T5 and if you go back and look at his fuel situatuon I think you'll agree I had no choice. In the south he didn't cross the Dnepr until T6, while I note Pelton crossed on T4 in your game. I was actually trying to take a page out of your playbook in this game; which if I understand it correctly, is to preserve the Russian army and set up defensive lines further east where the Germans will have supply problems and can't use HQBUs. Unfortunately this plan is not working against Saper as every turn he has 5 or 6 motorized units with 30 to 40 MPs, often on consecutive turns.


I think what you did is basically by the book, i.e. pretty much the right thing to do. Apart from his amazing advance in the open in the south, and the sudden success of AGNs right hook, your AAR sounds like you did delay or at least slow him successfully for some turns in front of Moscow and LG. The south, together with the consequences of the Lvov opening, have been debated to death. I think with that and without historical Russian reinforcements, it just always looks like that against a skilled German player like Saper. I wouldn't have head-aches about that. The right hook, well, sure is amazing how far he penetrated so quickly and that he still seems to be in sufficient supply.

What Saper does is more another form of hindsight in my opinion than anything else. He basically is fuel-economic, feeding those with the best effect/fuel ratio. Is this real? Does it mean the Luftwaffe effect in close support is underestimated, less important than the Germans needed it? Does it mean Axis ground forces are too strong or Russians too weak? Too few reinforcements on their side? Is it again the logistics, that are too abstracted and get fuel to air bases to easily? Or does it mean the Luftwaffe better had played the big flying fuel truck in Barbarossa, and the Germans pushed the Mots more? Hmmh, sure does sound strange to me, but Saper appears to be doing what is logical in this set of things.




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 8:06:19 PM)

T12 North

I made some moves and even an attack before I remembered to take screen shots. In any event here is the situation in the North. As you can see I lucked out with mud in the North Soviet Zone. In fact I have been quite lucky with the weather in this game, getting the mud in the zones I needed it in at the right time. To his credit Saper has not complained once. If I was him I would be crying like a baby. Of course, he is on his way to victory anyway; but winning never stopped me from having a good whine.

My main concern is that I know Saper has, or at least had, 9 panzer/motorized in this general area a few turns ago. But I can now only positively identify the positions of 3 of them (circled in red) and have a very strong belief that the 2 circled in blue are also panzer/motorized. But that still leaves 4 missing. Where are they and, just as importantly, what is their fuel supply?

Circled in purple is where I attacked an isolated (because it was more than 100 MPs from a railhead) regiment of the 1st panzer division. The result of this attack is below.




[image]local://upfiles/14737/054F13B77DF64FE3AB1096E1D9531E5D.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 8:11:10 PM)

Helpless once told me that the Battle Screen can not be wrong. Well maybe, but it can sure lie. Some how I donít think that Flamm panzer battalion really had a CV of 54. I needed to make this attack in order to evacuate the industry from Kalinin.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/F2812C2D27994F06AA1ECD41EB2CA7A8.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 8:12:41 PM)

T12 Moscow Area

[image]local://upfiles/14737/BEA70EB33F48409A8B1A305AF16C294A.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 8:13:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Wow I totally forgot about our game and I had forgot you were HB heheehe.

You are very much an improved player for sure.


Um, I don't think I've ever played you Pelton. The above are screen shots from my first game against Saper with us playing the same sides as our current game. I only posted these to illustrate how improved a German player Saper has become. In fact as our game above went on he got better and better, but it was too late for him to overcome his intial inexperience. Well to be truthful I guess I had an ulterior motive, namely to show I'm not a complete imbecile at this game. In fact prior to my current game against Saper I had never lost as the Russians; but this is probably only the 2nd or 3rd game I have played against someone who really knew what they were doing.

I would love to play you sometime Pelton, but my time is limited so I can only play 1 game at a time. In the meantime go do your turn against Michael T [:-] (he paid me to say that).




I saw the Sapper vs bob and thought you went as bob also as I have played 2 bobs in the past.

Yes I have flipped MT's turn as new tactic has gotten ratio over 4 to 1.

I am guessing we are all on our last round of wite games as witw will be out withen 12 months or thats 2by3's game plan.

I plan on playing 1 wite game at same time as witw.

I have to play MT next as SHC.




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 8:13:51 PM)

T12 A closeup view of the situation around Tula. I think I have all of Saperís mobile units in this area accounted for. Note the 2 motorized with dark green (71% to 85%) fuel supply. So I can expect them to have 36 to 45 MPs next turn. FYI these units ended the turn 96 and 85 MPs respectively from a railhead. I think by now you all recognize how this was accomplished.

You may have noticed by now that I have throughout this AAR tried to identify for you whenever Saper was using air supply to fuel his motorized units. Just to be clear my purpose in doing so was to educate (for want of a better word) you on how Saper was able to accomplish his spectacular rates of advance against Speedy, M60A and now myself. I suspect you are all learning the same lessons from reading Saperís AAR. In any event, it was not my purpose to discredit Saper as exploiting the rules or anything like that. I personally have no idea if motorized units consumed less fuel than panzers and if so whether or not the Luftwaffe was capable of supplying the motorized units with fuel as Saper has done. I leave that up to the WWII grognards who I know frequent this Forum. If what Saper is doing was possible, but just never thought of or done to this extent by the Germans, than I personally have no problem with it. On the other hand, if it was not possible than it should be looked at.

I also want it understood that Saperís success is not only a result of his using air supply. With or without it he is a very good player. The best I have played to date. He is also a courteous player who has never tried to rub salt in my wounds and congratulates me when I make a move he thinks is good.


[image]local://upfiles/14737/5EBCFC060E4B4FEFBE17B282A052A9EA.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 8:18:36 PM)

T12 Tula to Voronezh

I believe Saper has 6 mobile units West of Vornezh of which I believe I was able to locate 5. The units circled in green either are known to have or believed to have good supplies of fuel


[image]local://upfiles/14737/5D71D4A8C4DA4F9BB3F6427E6A704561.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 8:21:21 PM)

T12 South

I managed to keep Saper away from Rostov so Iíve already evacuated the Arm factories there this turn. Unfortunately I was only able to locate 6 of the 9 mobile units he had in this area. Of the units I can see the DR SS Mot (circled in yellow) is the most dangerous with itís 30 to 40 MPs

Now I better go play my turn.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/6A0F1E6A39684C679EDB5BAB220D51A0.jpg[/image]




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 9:43:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hooooper

Regarding airdropped fuel, I seem to remember somebody (Tullius?) suggesting shadowing them with Stavka airbases which are allegedly more likely to intercept the transporting aircraft. I take it you have intercept set to 300 on the air doctrine screen?


I tried this once and Saper bombed the offending airfield into oblivion. Mind you this was early in the game (T3 I think) and perhaps I should have stuck with it. But the Russians don't get many good air leaders and I wanted the ones I did have with my Front Air commands. Intercept has been set to 300 since T1. But seldom if ever intercept the fuel drops. Maybe he is doing them at night; perhaps I should have thought of that before.




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/2/2012 9:52:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Vehicles are important - it's just that the factories does not produce that many of them. [;)]
Better to use vehicle saving routines instead.



Gingerbread can you elaborate on the vehicle saving routines you use. Or if you have already done so let me know the thread. One way I know to save vehicles is to use rail to move your airbases around. The problem is this is very rail capacity heavy and not, I think, an option for the Russians in 1941. By 43 the Russians are, hopefully, moving forward and you will likely have to move some of your airbases off the rails in order to keep up with your advancing troops.

What do you think of Walloc's idea of moving the tank and motorized divisions that start on the East edge to the front overland without rail? Saves on rail capacity, but tough on vehicles isn't it?




Walloc -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/3/2012 7:55:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Gingerbread can you elaborate on the vehicle saving routines you use. Or if you have already done so let me know the thread. One way I know to save vehicles is to use rail to move your airbases around. The problem is this is very rail capacity heavy and not, I think, an option for the Russians in 1941. By 43 the Russians are, hopefully, moving forward and you will likely have to move some of your airbases off the rails in order to keep up with your advancing troops.

What do you think of Walloc's idea of moving the tank and motorized divisions that start on the East edge to the front overland without rail? Saves on rail capacity, but tough on vehicles isn't it?


Well im not Gingerbread, but as i know a bit about it. For each veh factory point u save u get in rough numbers 1000 trucks until the end of the war. So those 25 veh fac u evaced will give around 25k veh. When u know u get 4,5k per turn in 43 IIRC and 6k in 44 in LL. Its only a few turns worth of LL. So overall while veh are importand and especially in 42 looking at it at in the long run is why if u pressed that arms usually take precedence over veh for evac purposes. Doesnt mean its unimportand if u can evac em its still 6-7-8 ish mech corps more.

About saving veh there is one thing im struck by in about half the AARs and that is how many mot and tank divs ppl lose in pockets in T3-T17. i dont use them in the front lines and where they in danger of being surrounded. Its not the same as tehy arent being used. Its just in 2nd and 3rd lines so its not those that gets surrounded.
A 1 CV tank div can still have 400-800 veh and lose many of them plus mot divs it starts to add up fast. Escpecially if u lose some "full strength" divs to, fielding up too 1500-2000 veh each. Then it really adds up fast. From my guess is its not uncommon to lose 25k-100k trucks i think is unnecesarry, in some AARs. I know there are others that uses other methodes to save those early divs. Doesnt really matter methode as long as u dont get them captured.

About saving trucks in 41 by moving stuff by rail, as only purpose, forget it. While u indeed lose veh from alot of moving its not that great. I tested it on the divs i move from ural and they lost 6-800 veh in all. When u add up they save 6k RR for each div = 1 potential veh fac = 1k veh saved. The math is on the side of moving them manually. In 41 while in the evac phase u need teh RR cap for evacing and moving importand forces, periode. The veh lost by manual move in this periode is just some thing u hafta live with, IMO. U can follow this in the log. The numbers u lose by "units movement" isnt that many.

Kind regards,

Rasmus





gingerbread -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/3/2012 8:50:56 AM)

On vehicles: (nice pretto start [;)] )

The single most expensive event is that a '41 Tank/Mot Division is made to surrender or is used as a punching bag. The counter is to not use these in combat or in the front line (except the 2 at Pskov - they are needed). I'll even disband up to 20 Tank, the majority of these 20 will be many of those that survive the Lvov pocket and can reach a hex where disband is allowed.

The rest and the MD:s never moves WEST until after converting to TB/ID. I think that movement EAST can be made overland - you'll then likely save 85% of the vehicles in the unit instead of 100% but that's fine and much better than 0. The southernmost 3 (2TD/1MD) can use sea movement to Kerch from Odessa. The 4 or so arriving on the east edge moves 2-3 hexes along the rail line to clear up the entry hexes and then stay put until converted.

Since this removes quite a few units from being available for front line service, it is necessary to make at least some disbands of TD:s to make men available to the infantry, say 100k men (doing the full 20 would give ~150-165k). There are enough TB:s left to make Corps. All TD:s on 'Ready', MD:s can be on 'Refit' to gain mor/exp.

All in all, this should make the per turn 'Vehicles lost in combat' a low 3 figure number once the border pockets are gone. At least until you have to make an exception due to events occurred - if say a large part of SW Front is pocketed, usage of the TD & MD in what has become the reserve to screen Kharkov and/or Stalino to get the factories out is of course sound play.



Air bases are expensive to move OL or by rail if they contain a lot of fuel & ammo. They do have that if they have LB type air units assigned (or had when the turn started). This means that movement of air bases with LB must be planned a turn in advance so that they can be emptied of air units the turn before they are to be moved.

Now, LB have a very long range, so it should not be necessary to move their bases a lot so planning is not such a large effort as it might seem. But they do not have to be moved on turn 1, so don't.
As to the rest, I think it's OK to move them OL without concern for vehicles during turns 1-5, though except for the NW Front ones, I'd rather disband a SAD base instead of moving it.

By turn 6, the number of bases in use should be greatly reduced due to SAD disbands. The Northern Front should give up bases to NW so that NW can disband their SAD as well. It's still OK to move OL - you have to since rail is used for evac.
Most FB have a decent range, so bases can be somewhat to the rear and should therefore not have to be moved every turn.

To sum up vehicle saving regarding air base movement, I allow some break down losses but strive to avoid the avoidable ones.


Supply OP vehicle losses is in direct proportion to how many movement points the supply & fuel points has to be moved by vehicles.

Combat units must be where they must be, so no savings to be had here, apart from the ones from not having to supply & fuel all those fuel dependant TD:s - they are moved OL but to always end up on a rail hex. Another loss not suffered is from tank SU:s since they are not built nor used until the Lend lease have kicked up to the '43 level. I also tend to not have artillery SU in action during '41 except vs. AGN. Saves on ARM as well and I can assign the high exp ones from STAVKA when all SU have been collected there after the first few turns. (I digress, I notice. Back to topic.)

Air bases and their Air HQ:s are always on rail hexes as well, so no SuOP vehicle losses here either. The Army HQ:s must be given a little more flexibility but given a choice, a rail hex is preferred.


The majority of the SuOP losses will occur during the blizzard offensive. This is simply due to that the distance to rail in MP increases (hopefully). There are two things to do that can mitigate your vehicle losses.

I favour a generous number of RR Brigades with an average of 10 per active front. This totals to ~100 and will tie up 300k men which is probably double what is typical, but I want to do all that can be done to repair the rails. Supporting tricks are to first ensure that you have not stacked units in the hexes that are to be repaired - the RR brigades must have room - and to stack 3 high in the hexes that are dead ends or leading east so that the RR:s are not doing unneeded repairs. Defending the western most rails during the final snow offensive is also a good idea, but those hexes are most likely the ones the Germans wants to capture.

Then I avoid blindly shoving everything forward. If a unit is unready due to low TOE this turn, it most likely will not receive enough replacements even further from a rail hex next turn to achieve ready status so it is probably best to leave it or even move it east. This is of course dependant on that there are men & ARM available in the first place, but that is another issue.

Also, during blizzard (& mud) the air bases are moved by rail. There should be ample cap available, and with this routine in place it's more likely that the air bases will end up on a rail hex, which is very important during blizzard. Do look into using air supply during blizzard to have enough ammo in the leading units.





Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/4/2012 12:24:14 AM)

Wow, thanks for the advice Walloc and gingerbread. I'll be cutting and pasting your tips to my WITE Tips folder.




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/4/2012 12:36:27 AM)

Sorry guys (are there any ladies that play WITE?), but I forgot to take any screenshots before I ended my turn. As it was mud over most of the Front there wasn't much to show anyway. As I stated I did rail out the Arm from Rostov and Kalinin, so another 18 saved from the Huns. Of course this meant that I couldn't rail as many units into defend Moscow as I wanted. Despite the presence of fueled mobile units around Voronezeh I decided to defend there anyway. I figure the longer I can hold his panzers there the less time he will have to use them at Moscow. I am further defending the Rostov area in strength to try and deny him Army Groups A and B. Doubt I'll be successful, but at least want to make him fight for it a little bit.

Oh yeah he bombed Staingrad on me too, just like he did M60A, and damaged some tank factories. You would have thought I would have been prepared but I wasn't.

The battle of Moscow will be beginning in eanest now and with 5 guaranteed turns of clear weather and 3 more of snow it will be very tough for me to hold it.




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/5/2012 1:19:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

The battle of Moscow will be beginning in eanest now and with 5 guaranteed turns of clear weather and 3 more of snow it will be very tough for me to hold it.


Oops my bad, we are playing with random weather so I guess there is no guarantee of 3 turns of snow. Of course, no guarantee of mud for several turns either.

T13 has been received and no disasters to report. I'll post a full report when I get a cahnce.




Harrybanana -> RE: Defending Mother Russia (12/6/2012 4:37:58 PM)

T13

Not a lot happened this turn so Iíll just show you the screenshots from after my moves.

But before I do I'll let you know that I received an email from Saper in which he says that my cavalry raid cutting his rail lines is causing him supply problems in front of Moscow. So may be it did some good after all. I hope so because Saper has destroyed a lot of cavalry this game and I wouldn't like to think I threw those 2 away for nothing.

I also received the following email from Saper in which I think he is trying to explain his tactic for attacking my fortifed positions West of Moscow. He is having great success here with 4 consecutive attacks obtaining final odds of between 2.1 to 1 and 2.4 to 1. But he is complaining about his high losses. If anyone can decipher what he is trying to say about his tactic I would be most appreciative of the translation.

"I make 10 attack where can be you reserve - in 6 be done. 9,2,4 Army move forvard only 2 hex.
If I assault fort I do following:
star position - one Germany infantry division opposite one Soviet (2x2 and 3x3)
then I add number division (maybe 2 regiment other corps) what number fort and have 2 division and 3 regiment on reserve mode - you can do this - 100% success (Heavy Gun use).
A game with other players I have little losses and more heavy Soviet, what in our game."






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