Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (Full Version)

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Icedawg -> Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/30/2012 9:49:09 PM)

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Which do I use to try to intercept enemy transport aircraft as they transport troops between enemy bases? Is it sweep or LRCAP?

Also, do I sweep the base they are transporting troops to, or the base I suspect they are flying from?

Here's what's going on. I have noticed that an enemy LCU at Cox's Bazaar is gradually getting larger over the past couple of weeks and assume it is due to my opponent flying in troops using Catalinas. I have some Oscars at Rangoon. Can I intercept his tranports by sweeping Cox's Bazaar? Or do I use LRCAP? I'm guessing sweep as LRCAP is a defensive operation.




LoBaron -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/30/2012 9:55:06 PM)

LRCAP destination hex (in your case Cox Bazaar) to shoot down transport planes. In addition you could LRCAP base of origin
to increase op losses.

I reccommend setting the LRCAP alt relatively low, most players tend to use their transports at low alt.




dr.hal -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/30/2012 10:02:56 PM)

LoBaron is spot on... look at your combat reports for altitude...




crsutton -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 2:16:31 AM)

But bear in mind, if the enemy LRCaps the destination base as well, you won't see the combat but your fighter losses can be severe. Don't know why but the losses are sometimes brutal. Best tactic is to bomb the base where the transports are coming from with your heavies.




btbw -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 6:26:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I reccommend setting the LRCAP alt relatively low, most players tend to use their transports at low alt.

I thought all transports operate on one alt (6k feet).




Puhis -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 7:31:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Here's what's going on. I have noticed that an enemy LCU at Cox's Bazaar is gradually getting larger over the past couple of weeks and assume it is due to my opponent flying in troops using Catalinas. I have some Oscars at Rangoon. Can I intercept his tranports by sweeping Cox's Bazaar? Or do I use LRCAP? I'm guessing sweep as LRCAP is a defensive operation.


You have to use LRCAP. I've run test with transport interception. Don't worry about altitude. Altitude have absolutely no effect weather or not you shot down transports. You can fly very high if you want.

However, there is one oddity (a bug I'd say). I reported it once, but no-one was interested. So don't be too surprised if you don't shoot down anything.
(Your fighters have to fly relatively short range. Normal range minus 3)




kevin_hx -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 7:39:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

But bear in mind, if the enemy LRCaps the destination base as well, you won't see the combat but your fighter losses can be severe. Don't know why but the losses are sometimes brutal. Best tactic is to bomb the base where the transports are coming from with your heavies.


But I think the base where the transports coming from is far away from your attacking.




kevin_hx -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 7:42:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Here's what's going on. I have noticed that an enemy LCU at Cox's Bazaar is gradually getting larger over the past couple of weeks and assume it is due to my opponent flying in troops using Catalinas. I have some Oscars at Rangoon. Can I intercept his tranports by sweeping Cox's Bazaar? Or do I use LRCAP? I'm guessing sweep as LRCAP is a defensive operation.


You have to use LRCAP. I've run test with transport interception. Don't worry about altitude. Altitude have absolutely no effect weather or not you shot down transports. You can fly very high if you want.

However, there is one oddity (a bug I'd say). I reported it once, but no-one was interested. So don't be too surprised if you don't shoot down anything.
(Your fighters have to fly relatively short range. Normal range minus 3)


What bug? I am interested.




Puhis -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 7:59:06 AM)

At least an oddity. It seems that fighters can only shoot down transports if the range is normal range minus 3. For example if A6M2 Zero have normal range 7, Zeros can only shoot down transports if the LRCAP range is 4 or less. It's not something like they are just less effective, after that threshold fighters have no effect at all.

Well, at least according to my tests.




LoBaron -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 8:22:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevin_hx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Here's what's going on. I have noticed that an enemy LCU at Cox's Bazaar is gradually getting larger over the past couple of weeks and assume it is due to my opponent flying in troops using Catalinas. I have some Oscars at Rangoon. Can I intercept his tranports by sweeping Cox's Bazaar? Or do I use LRCAP? I'm guessing sweep as LRCAP is a defensive operation.


You have to use LRCAP. I've run test with transport interception. Don't worry about altitude. Altitude have absolutely no effect weather or not you shot down transports. You can fly very high if you want.

However, there is one oddity (a bug I'd say). I reported it once, but no-one was interested. So don't be too surprised if you don't shoot down anything.
(Your fighters have to fly relatively short range. Normal range minus 3)


What bug? I am interested.


This is neither a bug nor an oddity but the result of how LRCAP behaves. The percentage of planes over target is a small fraction of the planes assigned to mission, the
further away the base is the tinier the fraction.

Have you ever tested how many equally sturdy bombers you are able to shoot down at LRCAP ranges +4?
I can tell you: next to none. Also the transport phase happens last, so usually with the smallest ammount of fighters still available for a mission.

Besides that I have shot down TR flying to bases more than 4 hexes away.




kevin_hx -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 8:24:06 AM)

thank you, I will try in my game.




btbw -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 8:27:27 AM)

Very interesting!




LoBaron -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 8:31:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevin_hx


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

But bear in mind, if the enemy LRCaps the destination base as well, you won't see the combat but your fighter losses can be severe. Don't know why but the losses are sometimes brutal. Best tactic is to bomb the base where the transports are coming from with your heavies.


But I think the base where the transports coming from is far away from your attacking.


Usually.

Also, while what crsutton states can be true at times, it is extremely rare.

If your opponent has enough air cover to throw in LRCAP to protect the TR destination base he is usually also able to transport in troops with other means.
Transport supplies or troops by air over longer ammounts of time is commonly used as last resort (maybe with the exception of China TOO, but there everything
is a last resort anyway...), when equality in the air is long gone.

LRCAP vs. LRCAP follows similar rules than normal A2A, so the best solution for this is to throw more fighters at shorter ranges at the target than the opponent
is able to, problem solved. In general in the situation described by the OP this should be absolutely no problem.




Puhis -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 9:49:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevin_hx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Here's what's going on. I have noticed that an enemy LCU at Cox's Bazaar is gradually getting larger over the past couple of weeks and assume it is due to my opponent flying in troops using Catalinas. I have some Oscars at Rangoon. Can I intercept his tranports by sweeping Cox's Bazaar? Or do I use LRCAP? I'm guessing sweep as LRCAP is a defensive operation.


You have to use LRCAP. I've run test with transport interception. Don't worry about altitude. Altitude have absolutely no effect weather or not you shot down transports. You can fly very high if you want.

However, there is one oddity (a bug I'd say). I reported it once, but no-one was interested. So don't be too surprised if you don't shoot down anything.
(Your fighters have to fly relatively short range. Normal range minus 3)


What bug? I am interested.


This is neither a bug nor an oddity

Besides that I have shot down TR flying to bases more than 4 hexes away.


How many times people have reported bugs, and there is always someone saying "it's not a bug", or "I've seen it happen" without any kind of data to back their claims... And then there actually is a bug...

Well, I've run tests and I know how the system works. That's enough for me. I don't care nay-sayers.




LoBaron -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 11:16:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis
How many times people have reported bugs, and there is always someone saying "it's not a bug", or "I've seen it happen" without any kind of data to back their claims... And then there actually is a bug...


As compared to how many times people claimed to have found a bug simply because they did not understand or care to understand the underlying
game mechanisms? Quite few.

No offense but supecting a false hardcoded limit for A2A LRCAP transport kills at a fighters normal range minus 3 suggest a lack of understanding
of underlying game mechanisms.

There is a steep drop on LRCAP fighter effectiveness on range. Big surprize. That is a result of LRCAP mission properties.

But pick 4 P47 equipped units, let them LRCAP a target base at normal range minus 2 and send in A couple of Ki34 Thora flights for a some days and
then compare A2A losses. You might be surprized...

Or not and then report back with your suspicion confirmed and accept my apology. [;)]




LoBaron -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (10/31/2012 11:48:12 AM)

Just in case anybody is still wondering why LRCAP is so extremely ineffective at range:

If a fighter has a range of 200nm, and should LRCAP a base 200nm away, what is his problem? Bingo: His loitering time is is exactly 0 as
he spent half his fuel for the ingress route, and needs the other half for the return leg.

But loitering time is one of the most important factors for LRCAP, as the fighters have to wait for the incoming enemy planes.

I have no idea why some believe that a low to no success probability of LRCAP missions at ranges that require a high % of the fuel for ingress and egress
routes is anything but a given. You have to be right over target at exactly the right moment to even have a chance to engage... [8|]




LoBaron -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (11/1/2012 3:35:34 PM)

quote:

At least an oddity. It seems that fighters can only shoot down transports if the range is normal range minus 3. For example if A6M2 Zero have normal range 7, Zeros can only shoot down transports if the LRCAP range is 4 or less. It's not something like they are just less effective, after that threshold fighters have no effect at all.

Well, at least according to my tests.



Apologies Puhis. You were correct with your tests, and I was wrong to doubt it. Sorry! [:)]

I made several tests with different ranges, different LRCAP settings, and several fighter types, and I can confirm your findings.

What I noticed in addition, is that normal range minus 4 already shows a significant drop in LRCAP effectiveness on normal
range 6 fighters, whereas minus 5 (in this case LRCAP @ 1 hex distance) is very effective. Not really news here, but both the drops from
1 to 2 and from 2 to 3 hexes are extreme.

What I can also confirm is that this is not in any way influenced by drop tanks enabled. Effectiveness drops to practically 0 independent
of drop tanks or not, which is really odd.

The cause definitely relates to no more fighters in the target area on greater ranges, which is supported by the observation
that only on every 3rd to 4th transport phase the "Transports intercepted" messages was even displayed, the rest was not even intercepted.


Actually I wonder if this limitation was implemented on purpose to prevent exploit of the LRCAP system, but this would need to
be confirmed by a dev.




Chickenboy -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (11/1/2012 5:18:36 PM)

Puhis,

Thank you for reporting on your tests. Very interesting results. I was unaware of this at all before reading your post, so thank you for letting us know about the LRCAP limitations.




Puhis -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (11/2/2012 7:33:04 PM)

The reason why I said oddity/bug is that long range LRCAP can intercept bombers but not transport missions. Same "rule" (normal range minus 3) does not apply to bombing missions.

Here is one example. Hellcats flying range 5 LRCAP (normal range is 6). They are not very effective, but they still shot down 9/43 bombers. Transports would have fly through that CAP without a scratch.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jun 10, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 2nd Marine Division, at 108,93 (Saipan)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 34


Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 18


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

No Allied losses


Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
18 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 7000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
13 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 7000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-10 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
VF-32 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
VF-50 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Raid is overhead
VF-51 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 2nd Marine Division, at 108,93 (Saipan)

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 9



Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 18


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses



CAP engaged:
VF-10 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VF-32 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VF-50 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Raid is overhead
VF-51 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Raid is overhead




LoBaron -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (11/2/2012 10:16:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

The reason why I said oddity/bug is that long range LRCAP can intercept bombers but not transport missions. Same "rule" (normal range minus 3) does not apply to bombing missions.

Here is one example. Hellcats flying range 5 LRCAP (normal range is 6). They are not very effective, but they still shot down 9/43 bombers. Transports would have fly through that CAP without a scratch.


Yes I noticed this as well. Currently I got two ideas of an explanation.

Look at your combat results. What is the major difference to a test with LRCAP over an enemy base waiting for incoming transports?

My answer would be:
Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes


The intercept was over a friendly base which provided early warning.
On the contrary you usually intercept transports flying to an enemy base so get no early warning for the apporaching raid.
This could explain the different success rates.

What I also keep returning to as another path is: the transport phase is the last air phase of the day. A fighter unit assigned to LRCAP already covered the AM and PM phase
(it does not matter whether combat occured or not, they flew missions). Maybe this impacts as well, but I still am unsure exactly how, and how it
comes down to normal range -3 hexes. What I know is that pilot mission count increases only max 2 per day, so maybe paired with fatigue values they reach an important
threshold for this specific range depending on fighter type...

Wonder what your thoughts on this are and if you performed the test with a similar setup as me or payed attention to base ownership.
If not I think it is at least possible to reduce the differences on the tests. Total elimination is difficult as for bombing attacks you need
opposing unit at the base, for transports you do not.




Mac Linehan -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (11/3/2012 7:11:03 PM)

Puhis and LoBaron -

I appreciate your thorough and thoughtful testing and comments on this subject. What an awesome game...

Mac




Puhis -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (11/3/2012 8:05:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

The reason why I said oddity/bug is that long range LRCAP can intercept bombers but not transport missions. Same "rule" (normal range minus 3) does not apply to bombing missions.

Here is one example. Hellcats flying range 5 LRCAP (normal range is 6). They are not very effective, but they still shot down 9/43 bombers. Transports would have fly through that CAP without a scratch.


Yes I noticed this as well. Currently I got two ideas of an explanation.

Look at your combat results. What is the major difference to a test with LRCAP over an enemy base waiting for incoming transports?

My answer would be:
Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes


The intercept was over a friendly base which provided early warning.
On the contrary you usually intercept transports flying to an enemy base so get no early warning for the apporaching raid.
This could explain the different success rates.


Actually that was Japanese base, but there was allied units.

quote:


What I also keep returning to as another path is: the transport phase is the last air phase of the day. A fighter unit assigned to LRCAP already covered the AM and PM phase
(it does not matter whether combat occured or not, they flew missions). Maybe this impacts as well, but I still am unsure exactly how, and how it
comes down to normal range -3 hexes. What I know is that pilot mission count increases only max 2 per day, so maybe paired with fatigue values they reach an important
threshold for this specific range depending on fighter type...

Wonder what your thoughts on this are and if you performed the test with a similar setup as me or payed attention to base ownership.
If not I think it is at least possible to reduce the differences on the tests. Total elimination is difficult as for bombing attacks you need
opposing unit at the base, for transports you do not.


I don't think fatigue matters here, because after certain range there is no kills at all. Never. Transports always fly trough LRCAP. I would imagine fatigued pilots would get some kills now and then.

I can only guess, but I think air transport phase might have a different, more simple code than other air phases. And that's why LRCAP is having some issues with range?




LoBaron -> RE: Sweep and LRCAP Questions (No Khyberbill Please) (11/5/2012 9:17:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis
Actually that was Japanese base, but there was allied units.

I can only guess, but I think air transport phase might have a different, more simple code than other air phases. And that's why LRCAP is having some issues with range?


Good test then! Although the bombers were still detected 79nm out. I agree with you that the code is simplified compared to AM/PM A2A but we donīt know exactly where that simplification
begins. It might be detection range, that has quite some impact on LRCAP effectiveness.

quote:

I don't think fatigue matters here, because after certain range there is no kills at all. Never. Transports always fly trough LRCAP. I would imagine fatigued pilots would get some kills now and then.


Maybe, but I was not referring to no A2A kills because a pilot on LRCAP mission has high fatigue. I am referring to failing the fatigue check which prevents pilots flying a mission at all.
I guess you noticed as well that the "Transports intercepted" message is rare on normal range 3-. As I pointed out before, squads on LRCAP at long range already performed that
mission in AM and PM phase, and LRCAP mission type probably accumulates fatigue fastest of all possible missions.

Interesting discussion. I still suspect fatigue and detection range to play a notable part in decreased effectiveness.




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