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jcjordan -> Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/29/2012 10:08:08 PM)

You'd have thunk they'd have gotten out of the path sooner or into a port in NC being a tall ship

HMS Bounty sinks




bradfordkay -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/29/2012 10:20:48 PM)

Considerig where they were, there was no port in NC that they could have safely made. Their best bet would have been to turn earlier into Norfolk or the Delaware Bay.




Sardaukar -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/29/2012 10:26:33 PM)

I was wondering who would be sailing to hurricane with sailship. It's not like that was surprise or something. It's cruel sea.




Gregg -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 12:10:04 AM)

It was a stupid move on part of the captain, and his superiors to take the ship out to sea when it was predicted the storm would move up the east coast.
The ship really did not move under sail, it relied on a diesel engine, and when that conked out, they were helpless.
You can not sail a ship that size with a crew of only 16 people.
They are very lucky the Coast Guard was able to save the 14 it did.
I just hear they found one of the two missing crew members, a woman who was pulled out of the water "unresponsive", and that does not sound good.
Gregg




fodder -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 12:44:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregg

It was a stupid move on part of the captain, and his superiors to take the ship out to sea when it was predicted the storm would move up the east coast.



+1




Fallschirmjager -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 1:15:37 AM)

I hope against hope that by some miracle the Coast Guard can recover the last person alive. That would be an absolutely terrifying situation.




Natali -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 1:34:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
I was wondering who would be sailing to hurricane with sailship. It's not like that was surprise or something. It's cruel sea.

Many would. There was Ansons circumnavigation. And there was HMS Wager that actually did that and here's an artist's rep of it.

She had Spencers, that the artist doesn't show. And there ain't no way in hell that she would have had fore and main topmasts up in that weather, but otherwise, a decent picture.

Can you believe that back then they did this every frikkin day and thought nothing of it?


[image]local://upfiles/43061/217C0EE608E64F07B08F709353769B58.jpg[/image]




Sardaukar -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 4:54:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Natali


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
I was wondering who would be sailing to hurricane with sailship. It's not like that was surprise or something. It's cruel sea.

Many would. There was Ansons circumnavigation. And there was HMS Wager that actually did that and here's an artist's rep of it.

She had Spencers, that the artist doesn't show. And there ain't no way in hell that she would have had fore and main topmasts up in that weather, but otherwise, a decent picture.

Can you believe that back then they did this every frikkin day and thought nothing of it?


[image]local://upfiles/43061/217C0EE608E64F07B08F709353769B58.jpg[/image]


Natali,

I think I need to clarify myself a bit here. [8D]

I was commenting that one should not take risks like that, it'll bite your butt, sooner or later. Unfortunately it did for the crew. I mean..hurricane...sane mariner runs for the port. Remember how many ships Adm. Halsey lost for one.




jmalter -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 4:56:44 AM)

nice painting of Wager, Natali. is that a Geoff Hunt?




LoBaron -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 7:54:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Natali


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
I was wondering who would be sailing to hurricane with sailship. It's not like that was surprise or something. It's cruel sea.

Many would. There was Ansons circumnavigation. And there was HMS Wager that actually did that and here's an artist's rep of it.

She had Spencers, that the artist doesn't show. And there ain't no way in hell that she would have had fore and main topmasts up in that weather, but otherwise, a decent picture.

Can you believe that back then they did this every frikkin day and thought nothing of it?


[image]local://upfiles/43061/217C0EE608E64F07B08F709353769B58.jpg[/image]



Well, we´re not talking about racing a ship of the King around the globe hunting Fame, Fortune and the Royal Daughter.

We´re talking about a beautiful 20th(21st) century replica that does justify a need to take risks, in a country where a single life lost leads to serious consequences, and where weather
forecast is accurate enough that most would even have stayed in port in 18th century.

That said, no, I cannot imagine how it must have been to do that every frikkin day, and tbh I don´t want to. My respect for all who did!


Edit: That is a frikkin great painting by the way! [;)]




dr.hal -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 12:23:34 PM)

It is amazing to me that the ship was caught given modern communications and weather tracking. But it can be a hell of an experience. I crossed the Atlantic on my own sailboat (41 ft) in 1985 and planed on pulling into Antigua close to Christmas, knowing that I would miss all the hurricanes. How did I know that? Well there had been only 5 recorded hurricanes in December in the last 100 years. Of course you guessed it, I hit the 6th!!! We were looking at waves well over 30 feet... I lost all my sails and topmast.... NO FUN. It took an additional four days to reach Antigua thanks to that storm. I didn't know what it was (other than BAD) until a passing USN Helo Landing Ship told me, this was before us mere mortals could afford SatNav. Fortunately we all lived (me and four others). Don't mess with mother nature.... I had to change my underwear about once every ten minutes.... Hal




obvert -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 1:08:23 PM)

Amazing! I can't imagine doing that in a sailboat or a tall ship. Especially having to go up the mast in that weather and trim the sails. Yuck!

Must have been even worse in earlier ships that were so top-heavy during the 17th century. Like the Spanish Armada Galleons. Or like the two famous ones filled with quicksilver (mercury) that found a hurricane and were run aground off the DR in 1724.

http://history.knoji.com/shipwrecks-and-treasure-the-spanish-quicksilver-galleons-of-1724/





dr.hal -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 1:41:38 PM)

It's ok to talk about it now, but at the time I much rather have been somewhere else. There is an old saying among sailors; "no one would have ever crossed an ocean if they could have gotten off the boat in the middle of a storm."




Chris H -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 3:21:23 PM)

I'd like to know what the HMS stands for as it's NOT Her Majesty's Ship and has nothing to do with the Royal Navy.




jmalter -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 4:18:22 PM)

i believe her name is "Bounty", popularly known as "HMS Bounty". a restored or replica ship might easily have a registered name different than the one she is known by. for example, LST-325 is officially "MV LST Memorial", but we call her by her original name.

the Wikipedia article has already been updated - captain Robin Walbridge is still missing, and the missing crewman who was recovered & later pronounced dead was Claudene Christian, a descendant of Fletcher Christian.





dr.hal -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 4:59:59 PM)

Yes Chris it is clearly part of the registered name of the vessel. Just like "IM Crazy" can and is the name of a vessel. Hal




inqistor -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 5:43:55 PM)

DAMMIT!
And I just began wearing their shirt!

Actually, ship was pretty small (even smaller, than original). I am not sure I would risk it in ocean travel.

[image]local://upfiles/35065/D1840A81EE5C4FE9B2643F7ACE53C8DD.jpg[/image]




jmalter -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 7:15:41 PM)

nice photo, inqistor, thanks for posting it. there's something about the image of spars & rigging against the sky that always grabs my eye. heh, the satnav dome in the mizzen top is a bit anachronistic!

the attached pic is from the christian science monitor article, credited to USCG PO2 Tim Kuklewski.

looks like her topmasts were all (quite properly) taken down, i don't see any flying rigging that would indicate she'd been partially dismasted by the storm. best i can surmise from the article, she was headed for her usual winter port at St. Petersburg & had set a course to avoid the worst of the storm, but a generator failed & things went downhill.

bulk kudos to the USCG, who rescued the 14 surviving crewmen.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/1030/HMS-Bounty-the-inside-story-of-its-final-days

[image]local://upfiles/36361/0A4EC5B72EAD4F3A86FEBCA23D1EA859.jpg[/image]




inqistor -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 8:41:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

nice photo, inqistor, thanks for posting it. there's something about the image of spars & rigging against the sky that always grabs my eye. heh, the satnav dome in the mizzen top is a bit anachronistic!

Masts were so high, that it was hard to catch lots in the picture, when you were close. I actually have Crow's nest picture, and there is only part of mast visible, nothing more.

Here is another full view:

[image]local://upfiles/35065/920C0C3773D94A9EBB21BB8F3A098B34.jpg[/image]




jmalter -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 8:47:00 PM)

wow, nice. what port is this? +1 for the Zodiac slung under her fore-chains.




inqistor -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 9:00:07 PM)

OK, I have NO slightest idea what you are talking about [:D]

But I am guessing it is something up front...

[image]local://upfiles/35065/8B65882087134ED382EF619A556BAC50.jpg[/image]




BPRE -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 9:29:51 PM)

I think he's talking about the inflatable boat (Zodiac) hanging on the outside of the ship.

Believe the picture is taken in Gdansk (German name Danzig), Poland. Is that correct?

/BPRE




inqistor -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 9:39:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BPRE

I think he's talking about the inflatable boat (Zodiac) hanging on the outside of the ship.

He? I actually have closeup of half of it. It is quite weathered.
There are also quite a lots of cannons onboard, but you probably can not see it at that angles.

quote:

Believe the picture is taken in Gdansk (German name Danzig), Poland. Is that correct?

Yup. I think it is summer 2011.

[image]local://upfiles/35065/1DE6B7F170484949AA906AD6A7654AB1.jpg[/image]




jmalter -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/30/2012 9:46:00 PM)

k, 1st, what city are you in when taking these pics?
2nd, the grey rigid-inflatable w/ outboard-motor (commonly called a 'Zodiac' after its brand-name) is visible in your pic, 'slung under the fore-chains' means it's suspended against the hull, directly below the fore-mast and the 'shelf' that extends the shrouds further outboard of the hull, for added strength.

above the 'shelf', you've got rope 'shrouds' that extend up to the mast's 'top', w/ horizontal 'rat-lines' that help crewmen climb up & down. each shroud has 2 dead-eyes at its base, to adjust the tension.

below the shelf, you've got all-metal 'chains' (sometimes including tension-adjustment turnbuckles) that transfer the forces from the shrouds back to the ship's frame. together, shrouds and chains support the mast laterally, while stays (fore-stays and back-stays) support it fore & aft.

it's all a bit complicated and nautically wonderful, for instance the aft-most of a line of shrouds is more accurately a back-stay, then there are also 'preventer stays' that double beneath fore-stays.

'chains' can be a generic term, it can refer to the extension shelf (he was fishing from the fore-chains) or it can refer to the rigging support.




dorjun driver -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/31/2012 12:09:44 AM)

The idiot captain appears to have headed directly into the dangerous quadrant of the storm as well. I know four people, one of whom was a good buddy of Claudene, who have crewed on Bounty. One of 'em was a plank owner. They all agree that the vessel was an accident just waiting to happen from day one. She was just extremely lucky. Until Monday.




jmalter -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/31/2012 1:50:41 AM)

i don't like reading phrases such as 'idiot captain' here. the man did his best, got the majority of his crew to safety, & died at his post. i doubt any of us could've done as well. i disagree that Bounty was sailing into the dangerous quadrant, all news-reports i've read state that she'd been sailing to avoid the storm, & she foundered far to leeward of the eye.

Bounty had undergone a major refit not so long back, & was just out of the yard from a recent inspection. but for the generator fail, she'd likely have ridden the storm-waters w/ no prob, & she was nowhere near the worst of it.

but fate & the sea can conquer even the best judgements of men & their ships. i'm not ready to blame Capt. Walbridge, as 'master under God' he bore the responsibility in the face of wind & weather. he's paid the highest price possible, any add'l sniping from the spectator's gallery don't sit right w/ me.




dorjun driver -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/31/2012 3:09:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

i don't like reading phrases such as 'idiot captain' here. the man did his best, got the majority of his crew to safety, & died at his post. i doubt any of us could've done as well. i disagree that Bounty was sailing into the dangerous quadrant, all news-reports i've read state that she'd been sailing to avoid the storm, & she foundered far to leeward of the eye.

Bounty had undergone a major refit not so long back, & was just out of the yard from a recent inspection. but for the generator fail, she'd likely have ridden the storm-waters w/ no prob, & she was nowhere near the worst of it.

but fate & the sea can conquer even the best judgements of men & their ships. i'm not ready to blame Capt. Walbridge, as 'master under God' he bore the responsibility in the face of wind & weather. he's paid the highest price possible, any add'l sniping from the spectator's gallery don't sit right w/ me.


OK. How about a striking lapse in judgement? But you're right. I have no idea what pressures Captain Walbridge was under. But his "best", IMHO, would have been to look at the isobarics and never dropped lines, no matter what the front office said. By any yardstick, losing your vessel and a member of your crew, in this day and age, hardly deserves a "best" vote.

As I understand it—granted it's second hand information from a friend of Claudene's, who took a look at her at the time—her refit was something of a joke. If you find that type of joke funny. And please don't get me started on USCG inspection diligence. I have every respect for those guy and gals when push comes to shove, but in their a non-rescue capacity, ie everything else, they kind of suck. From personnel experience and and as spectator. At the same time!. More's the pity...

And one can never be in the lee of a typhoon.

Feel free to click the green button.




ChezDaJez -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/31/2012 3:12:12 AM)

quote:

i disagree that Bounty was sailing into the dangerous quadrant, all news-reports i've read state that she'd been sailing to avoid the storm, & she foundered far to leeward of the eye.


While I don't wish to disparage the captain either, he headed almost directly into the heart of the storm. Sandy passed approximately 350 miles east of Wilmington, NC as it headed north. The Bounty sank in position 3350N - 7350W which is approximately 235 miles east of Wilmington. He was to the west of the eye of the storm which happened to be the strongest side. Given the size of the storm, there was no way he was going to avoid it. He would have needed to be much, much further out to sea, much, much sooner.

BTW, the Bounty's sinking position was taken from the USCG helicopter video as it rescued the crew from the liferaft. The position may be off the actual sinking coordinates by a few miles but should still be close enough to get a good idea of where she went down.

Chez




jmalter -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/31/2012 4:30:02 AM)

dorjun driver, i was dismayed by your description of Bounty's captain.

& now you say, Bounty's refit was "a joke", and that USCG inspections are meaningless, 'cos "they kind of suck".

well done, now we can blame her loss on the captain, the shipyard, & the Coasties, too.

why stop there w/ the blame-game, let's rtb the entire US marine, they'll likely die if they get wet.




dorjun driver -> RE: Not AE - HMS Bounty sinks (10/31/2012 4:42:50 AM)

Jeffrey,

[image]local://upfiles/20478/B20A02EAF1034A98BD81441FDC56FA74.jpg[/image]

Doug




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