Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (Full Version)

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Omnius -> Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (10/25/2012 4:23:08 PM)

I started a 1941 Barbarossa scenario as the Axis, actually did a regular start but selected all Axcis countries to be played by me. I was able to capture Tobruk and then amphibious assault and capture Malta early on. Then I decided to move on to Alexandria. I was able to clear out the two fortified hexes three hexes in front of Alexandria and then noticed my big German panzer Korp go out of supply. I had 30 point German and Italian convoys successfully running 30 points of supply to Tobruk and having 20 points generating out of El Alamein. A hex in front of those two fortified hexes supply level was 16 points yet sitting on those hexes supply dropped to being out of supply. I had cleared out all British units holding that line.

So what gives here? Is this a programming bug? Is this a deliberate attmept to make Alexandria impossible for the Germans to capture? I watched several games where the AI's big German panzer korp got next to Alexandria only to be beaten back as a withered out of supply unit but thought maybe the German and Italian AI's weren't doing supply properly.

I also had 1 German and 3 Italian 10 point tactical bombers operating from the Sidi Barrani and El Alamein area and am wondering why they didn't give my out of supply German or Italian units any kind of air supply as stated in the rules. Why didn't my units get any air supply?

I'm also wondering why when there were no British ships in the adjacent Eastern Mediterrean sea area I didn't get any kind of alternate sea supply when I had Italian ships in the sea area. I can see where that might not help a German unit but I saw it didn't help any Italian units sitting ont he coast out of supply past that line.

Right now it looks like a fool's errand trying to take Alexandria as the Axis player. If so you should adjust the Axis AI's to never attack Alexandria since they always fail.
Omnius



doomtrader -> RE: Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (10/25/2012 4:53:38 PM)

Hi,

could you please send me the save game folder to doomtrader[at]wastelands-inteactive.com



gwgardner -> RE: Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (10/25/2012 5:11:06 PM)

any chance that you're seeing a Qattar Depression effect? I was told in the past that there's a big efficiency hit there. Not sure about supply. and I haven't tested the effeciency hit myself.



doomtrader -> RE: Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (10/25/2012 8:41:53 PM)

Yep, there is only efficiency hit, but it shouldn't reduce the units to 0



Omnius -> RE: Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (10/26/2012 3:21:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Hi,

could you please send me the save game folder to doomtrader[at]wastelands-inteactive.com


doomtrader,
Unfortunately I don't have a saved game file for that Axis supply problem in Egypt. I was using version 1.03 beta. I was not on any Quatarra hexes, I was on Plains hexes including adjacent to Alexandria on the coast and one hex in. My Axis units would have supply from El Alamein, which is really more like Mersa Matruh, in the plains and desert hexes adjacent and west of those two "El Alamein" fortification hexes. When I put my Axis units on those two fortified hexes after clearing them of British units that's when supply stopped for the Axis coming from El Alamein. So in front of that El Alamien line the Axis get supply normally, on and east of that line and Axis supply is suppressed for some odd reason.

If you want a saved game file all you need to do is run the 1941 Barbarossa scenario as Switzerland, or get one of your beta testers to do so. I think in about 6 turns or so the Axis AI will prevail and move east towards Alexandria. Once past that line you can then see for yourself the Axis supply problem. I kept wondering why the Axis would get next to Alexandria with a big panzer korp that was really weak, at first I thought it was fleet bombardment but now know it's a supply problem.

I'm sorry I didn't save a copy of my supply problem, I just cheated and as the British player took the mobile units out of Egypt so I could allow the German to take Alexandria and Cairo to see if there were any events triggered for Brits and Axis. Supply worked normal for the Axis once I had Alexandria and was running 30 point convoys into it. I then switched sides to play the Allies in the 1941 scenario to see if I got the same production multiples as I saw the USSR AI have. Then I saw how much more the German AI gets and can see that the AI's get a nice handicap at the normal level, an additional 100 percentage points for Germany and the USSR and something extra for the Italians and I didn't measure the USA or Britian but figure they get a bump too.

I sure hope you can find and fix this supply problem in this patch as this makes it rather impossible as the Axis to consider going into Egypt.
Omnius



Omnius -> RE: Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (10/27/2012 5:14:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Hi,

could you please send me the save game folder to doomtrader[at]wastelands-inteactive.com


doomtrader,
I hope the file I just sent you reaches you via e-mail. I added an "r" to "inteactive", guessing you made a small typo. I tried to upload this like I did with other saved game files but your website was rejecting the correct pathing with some kind of fakepath pathing. I decided to fulfill your request for a saved game file of the German/Italian supply problem I found in my 1941 Barbarossa game. I'm playing with the 1.03 beta version. Lucky for you I'm a veteran beta tester and scenario designer so I was able to use, and abuse, the AI to set me up. I decided to cheat a tad by disbanding the British units in Egypt and Tobruk to ensure the Axis drove to Alexandria. I also had to disband the British unit that came in as reinforcements and the two that show up as part of the El Alamein fortification line.
The saved game is set up to enter as a human Germany. In hex 184,169 you'll find the Afrika panzer korp two turns out of supply. In hex 183,170 you'll find the Italian armor corp one turn out of supply, sitting right in the fortfication hex along the coast. Finally in hex 182,169 you'll find the Italian Mechanized division in supply from El Alamein with a 14 supply level. In other words all three units are in a line along the coast showing how that El Alamein fortification line cuts supply flowing from El Alamein.
So riddle me this? Why does this fortification line cut supply for the Axis from flowing into and past it? Why doesn't it flow into the Italian armor unit at 13 and the German panzer corp at 12? I didn't get into trying to bring ships into the equation because first and foremost is why does this fortification line stop supply from flowing from an Axis ground city supply point? In my game that I actually played I found that my one 10 point tactical bomber gave no help nor did Italy's 2 or 3 10 point tac bombers I had there.
I had an Italian fleet in the Eastern Med sea zone adjacent to the Alexandria area but it gave no supply to the Ialian units in the same hexes. I even ran the British fleet out to see if that made a difference and it didn't. Which brings me to a question of consistency in the manual. The manual states in the Fleets section that fleets can be either Regular Fleet or Raider (Silver & Black!) Group but in the Supply section the manual talks about Battle and Patrol Groups. I understand the Regular-Raider difference but am puzzled how that translates into Battle and Patrol. Are Battle Groups Regular Fleets and Patrol Groups Raider Groups? Does it make a difference if a fleet is set to Engage or Evade for supply purposes? I've seen it work fine for Brits and Italians as alternate supply but never near Alexandria.
I hope you'll be able to find what the problem is and fix it. Right now my plan for the Axis in Africa is abandon ship, don't even bother trying to fight there since there's pretty much no hope opf capturing Alexandria and the Suez Canal. I actually left the Suez area bereft of Brits since I want to test out what happens to British Colony resource convoys once the Suez Canal ports are taken. I'm wanting to see if that forces a convoy reroute through the Atlantic. I don't like how in the 1941 Barbarossa scenario in version 1.03 differs from the 1939 and 1941 scenarios where I saw the British Colony resource convoys routing through the Atantic regularly instead of the Med.
Omnius



Omnius -> RE: Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (11/2/2012 4:24:58 PM)

doomtrader,
In a further test of the saved game file I sent you I was able to get the Italian units in supply after I moved an Italian fleet into the southeastern Med as a regular fleet set to engage. That didn't happen when I had an Italian fleet in that sea area as a Raider. I still haven't figured out the airlift supply from tactical bombers, I had them there in my forst foray but could never get them to do any kind of supply. I didn't bother with it on my second test that I sent you.

I also tested out convoys by taking the Suez ports and sure enough the British Colony resource convoys routed through the Atlantic finally. There needs to be an event or something that reroutes these convoys as soon as Italy joins the war.
Omnius



Omnius -> RE: Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (11/8/2012 3:51:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Hi,

could you please send me the save game folder to doomtrader[at]wastelands-inteactive.com


doomtrader,
Since I was nice enough to go back and create a saved game file for you to see the problem I sure would appreciate some feedback on what you found and if you've fixed it for a future patch. You said something about trying to e-mail me but it seems that you typed in my e-mail address incorrectly. Please let me know what gives with the Egyptian supply problem I found and if you've fixed it for the future.
Omnius



Omnius -> RE: Egyptian Supply Anomaly? (11/12/2012 10:15:37 PM)

doomtrader,
Still no info regarding that German Egypotian supply problem I found? Not very good manners to ask for a saved game file then not give any answers as to finding the problem or not and what will be done about it when politely asked.

Well I finally managed to capture Gibraltar in a game I'm playing and found that once I had the Kreigsmarine in the Southeastern Med sea area that my German units could draw supply in the El Alamein fortification hexes from the alternate sea supply from my fleet. While that's nice it sure isn't easy to get lucky enough to capture Gibraltar.

I'm still curious as to why that fortification line cuts off German and Italian supply from the El Alamein supply source. I sure would like to know if that is indeed a bug as I suspect and if and when you'll fix it so capturing Alexandria isn't so near impossible.
Omnius



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