reinforcement cards (Full Version)

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olivier34 -> reinforcement cards (10/13/2012 8:58:38 AM)

I have begun to study the soviet side of the game.
Something need to be fix : We should not be allowed to play an action card unit on a town adjacent to an ennemy unit and maybe those units that arrive should have 0 aps.
Exemple below :
The 29th motorised division has advance near Nowy Oskol (recon of only an army HQ in it). As the soviet, I play the 18th tank corps card and this powerful force appears in Nowy Oskol. I attack the 29th, south first, cross the river, attack north (the 29th can't resist, I tested it three times) and finally the 18th tank corps moves back in Nowy Oskol. Too easy and not realistic to me.
What do you think ?

[image]local://upfiles/35042/6B3C2F45E6B64E71BA390502D6CC8F91.jpg[/image]




LiquidSky -> RE: reinforcement cards (10/13/2012 9:11:00 AM)



It is very easy to prevent that as the germans. If the city is damaged, he cannot play the reinforcement card. If the city is not connected by rail (due to blown bridges) he cannot play the reinforcement card.

The russians went through great pains to hide the massing of units from the Germans. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not. And sometimes the Germans ignored the signs, even when they knew of such massings, such as at Stalingrad.

....so I think that it is not as gamey or unrealistic as you might think.

If you are aware that it might occur, you will plan for it as the Germans.




rominet -> RE: reinforcement cards (10/13/2012 10:45:47 AM)

That's not really the question.
German player may have other things to think, to just prevent an hypothetical arrival of a russian reinforcement in the town just in front of its troops.

IMO, i think the arrival of reinforcement in a town directly on the front is not unrealistic.
The unit has readiness penalties, so it is a risk for the unit if engaged in the next turn.
And as the railway line is not interrupted, why forbidd such a movement?
A russian unit already on map could also arrived in this town by rail, this is the player choice.

But, i think this unit should have no AP because the unit was not there when germans arrived.
AP should supposed to be used in the turn for rail transport and only for that (as a normal rail transport).





stonestriker -> RE: reinforcement cards (10/13/2012 12:56:06 PM)

As Rominet says, it seems fair to me to be able to reinforce such a city, but they should have the same penalties as units being railed in (no AP and Readiness)




redmarkus4 -> RE: reinforcement cards (10/13/2012 12:57:44 PM)

There was certainly at least one case of a division arriving at the front by train and engaging the enemy literally from the moment of de-training on the East Front. IIRC it was German Pz. Div.




olivier34 -> RE: reinforcement cards (10/13/2012 2:36:04 PM)

If the city is damaged, we can still play the reinforcement card !
I have bombed Nowy Oskol (145 stackpts...costly). The structural pts ofthe city was at 0. Playing the soviet side after that (structural pts at 200), I was abble to play my card and slaughter the 29th motorised division [;)]
You are right, cuting the city from the railnetwork avoid the problem.
I still think that the units arriving on the map with a card should get 0 aps or at least penalties like if they had been railed there. But maybe we should even decide that you can't play a card next to an ennemy unit.
Another problem:
What if a player keeps his reinforcement cards instead of playing them the very first turn he gets them ? (what I think we should have to do). We will be abble to make appear on the front several units at the same time in a hex near the front.
Exemple : Your recon a sector that seems not well defended. You rush into the ennemy lines. You move close to a city not well guarded but the very next turn this city is full of fresh units that can directly attack you. This is hardcore fog of war for me [:D]




LiquidSky -> RE: reinforcement cards (10/13/2012 3:37:56 PM)

I dont really think of it as Russians 'arriving' right on the front....although detraining in sight of the enemy was common enough. Its more of a case where a large russian formation remains undetected by the Germans (through design even! The Russians where very good at hiding their marshalling areas.

You can place reinforcements on a damaged city? Really? Wow...as the Germans I can't, and I have tried a few times. Even when the rail line has been repaired (4 turns) and the city is still repairing (200 points left to repair on the fourth turn). I wonder if it is a case of us using the hardcore rules. I know my opponent has complained a couple of times about not being able to play his cards on cities near the front, but it could be because he is trying a city on a road instead of a rail.

That is makes me sad, because I do bomb cities to prevent reinforcements, and it appears that it is a waste.




Vic -> RE: reinforcement cards (10/13/2012 6:10:33 PM)

Interesting read. And some valid points. I will re-evaluate these rules for v1.05 and see if I can make them a bit more "realistic"
And also make sure the documentation is on track through errata. Thanks for the feedback. As always! :)

Best,
Vic




redmarkus4 -> RE: reinforcement cards (10/13/2012 6:56:17 PM)

Given that it's two day turns, Vic, and that rail can be repaired quickly in real life emergencies (assuming it was hit in the first place - WW2 aerial bombardment could be extremely inaccurate) I for one wouldn't want to see placement on damaged cities banned completely. A movement and attack penalty for units placed on the map within 1-2 hexes of the enemy might be in order, and possibly even zero AP for units placed adjacent to the enemy.

The key point here is that while the Soviets did plan ahead and place reserves intelligently to surprise the enemy, that is not what the DCCB player is doing - he is placing his forces at the last minute, without having to anticipate the enemy's movement or plan ahead, beyond saving PP.




wallas -> RE: reinforcement cards (10/15/2012 5:22:35 PM)

My view is the rule is just fine as is, and I am playing the soviets atm. My opponent liquidsky makes two valid points, if your doing an offensive in an area just bomb the rail bridges or the city out right. This will prevent any unit build up from reinforcements. Another point I would like to make is after the chaos of june july august you have many rail points available to move these units up.




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