Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (Full Version)

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Yaab -> Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 10:51:52 AM)

Allied torpedoes at start are faulty, but level bombing with TBs means almost no ships are ever hit. Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb?




btbw -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 11:26:08 AM)

Hope you joking. Biggest asspain for me at start is TB like Swordfish. Even without torpedoes they got near 100% hits.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mersing at 51,82

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes


Allied aircraft
Swordfish I x 4
Vildebeest III x 14


Allied aircraft losses
Vildebeest III: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Bomb hits 6, on fire
CA Atago
BB Kongo



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Vildebeest III bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x Vildebeest III bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x Vildebeest III bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x Swordfish I bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb




Yaab -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 11:29:42 AM)

I mean Devastators.




btbw -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 11:35:33 AM)

Any TB can glide bomb.




Yaab -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 11:43:36 AM)

Great news! 16-19k altitude, right?




oldman45 -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 12:38:30 PM)

I think at that height they are level bombing.




Puhis -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 1:17:20 PM)

Torpedo bombers cannot glide bomb. TBs used to glide bomb, but one of the patches changed that (they got way too many hits).




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 1:53:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Torpedo bombers cannot glide bomb. TBs used to glide bomb, but one of the patches changed that (they got way too many hits).


This is the only patch note I can find on the topic. Do you have a reference for your statement?

"62. Gameplay Change: Placed limits on glide bombing altitudes. A TD/DB/FB/F group must be at 10-20K altitude to perform glide bombing, otherwise it is a normal level bombing attack. Groups were at maximum altitude and conducting glide bombs attack, sometimes without engaging CAP or flak."

(I believe "TD" is a typo for "TB.")




Puhis -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 2:41:52 PM)

I don't have any reference. Everyone can try it. Set TBs at 10k, using bombs. If they fly level bomb attack, glide bombing is not working anymore.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 3:44:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I don't have any reference. Everyone can try it. Set TBs at 10k, using bombs. If they fly level bomb attack, glide bombing is not working anymore.


How can you tell what posture they're flying?




Lokasenna -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 5:18:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Hope you joking. Biggest asspain for me at start is TB like Swordfish. Even without torpedoes they got near 100% hits.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mersing at 51,82

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes


Allied aircraft
Swordfish I x 4
Vildebeest III x 14


Allied aircraft losses
Vildebeest III: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Bomb hits 6, on fire
CA Atago
BB Kongo



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Vildebeest III bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x Vildebeest III bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x Vildebeest III bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x Swordfish I bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb



If the initial altitude is correct, it looks like they're glide bombing, no?




Puhis -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 6:35:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Hope you joking. Biggest asspain for me at start is TB like Swordfish. Even without torpedoes they got near 100% hits.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mersing at 51,82

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes


Allied aircraft
Swordfish I x 4
Vildebeest III x 14


Allied aircraft losses
Vildebeest III: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Bomb hits 6, on fire
CA Atago
BB Kongo



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Vildebeest III bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x Vildebeest III bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x Vildebeest III bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x Swordfish I bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb



If the initial altitude is correct, it looks like they're glide bombing, no?


Not really.

At least I can't get TBs glide bomb like I used to.

Altitude 10000 feet:
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B5N1 Kate bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb


Altitude 12000 feet
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B5N1 Kate bombing from 12000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb


Altitude 8000 feet
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B5N1 Kate bombing from 8000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb




Yaab -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 6:44:29 PM)

Seems Puhis is right. I replayed the Coral Sea scenario yesterday and used Devastators with bombs. Set them at 13,000 to coordinate better with DBs and fighters. They level-bombed from 13,000 feet and probably washed overboard whole daitais from Japanese CVs'decks with all the water from the bomb misses. They didn't drop to a lower altitude to release their bombs.




CyrusSpitama -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 7:07:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Hope you joking. Biggest asspain for me at start is TB like Swordfish. Even without torpedoes they got near 100% hits.




No kidding. Last game I had two BBs and a CV get attacked by a tiny group of these and they all suffered from half a year worth of repairs. What an annoying little pipsqueak of a plane!




witpqs -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 7:18:45 PM)

I don't have a link but I thought only lower altitudes would allow glide bombing now?




obvert -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 9:34:28 PM)

Just did a test to make sure.

All of these came in at the altitude they were set. None glide-bombed. So it seems there is no option to glide bomb with TBs now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 50,54

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 107 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 47

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Royal Sovereign, Bomb hits 11
CL Durban
CA Hawkins

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
20 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 16000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 50,54

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 52 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 25



No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
BB Royal Sovereign, Bomb hits 8, on fire
CL Durban


Aircraft Attacking:
25 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 10000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring BB Royal Sovereign
Morning Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 50,54

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 112 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 47 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
BB Royal Sovereign, Bomb hits 1
CA Hawkins

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 8000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Rangoon at 50,54

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 29 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
BB Royal Sovereign, Bomb hits 5
CL Durban

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




btbw -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 10:11:08 PM)

Loaded Coral Sea. Sent only devastators+wildcats against S/Z+Shoho. From 23 "level-bombers" i did 8 hits to enemy carriers. Shoho exploded.
Problem of glide-bombers (which we remember from Midway attack of Vindicators) - this kind of attack hardly depend from enemy resistane.




Chris H -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/11/2012 11:48:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CyrusSpitama


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Hope you joking. Biggest asspain for me at start is TB like Swordfish. Even without torpedoes they got near 100% hits.




No kidding. Last game I had two BBs and a CV get attacked by a tiny group of these and they all suffered from half a year worth of repairs. What an annoying little pipsqueak of a plane!


That little pipsqueek of a plane was one of the best early war TB. It carried out many a successful torp attacks against important targets E.g. Toranto, Bismark It was slow but reliable and durable. It was still going in 1945 all-be-it in ASW role. One of my favourite aircraft if you had already guessed.




Fallschirmjager -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/12/2012 2:38:15 AM)

By far it's worst attribute is it's very short range. It can only go out to 5 hexes and still carry a torpedo. You have to get within knife fighting range with your carriers in order to make use of it as a TB.




Chris H -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/12/2012 7:45:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

By far it's worst attribute is it's very short range. It can only go out to 5 hexes and still carry a torpedo. You have to get within knife fighting range with your carriers in order to make use of it as a TB.


True




btbw -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/12/2012 8:41:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

That little pipsqueek of a plane was one of the best early war TB. It carried out many a successful torp attacks against important targets E.g. Toranto, Bismark It was slow but reliable and durable. It was still going in 1945 all-be-it in ASW role. One of my favourite aircraft if you had already guessed.

Reason why Toranto or Bismark happen is very weak close-range AA (Toranto dont prepared totally cuz night and relax-mode, Bismark dont have any close-range AA and dont have working directors for HAA, also never sail before in real action and hevo zero experience against planes). Torpedobombers almost died when ship can start produce rain of bullets which kill plane before dropping fish. Only new tactic, better speed and new armor allow to continue use that kind of planes.




dr.hal -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/15/2012 8:32:43 PM)

Too true btbw, look at the channel dash by the two German BCs. The swordfish attacks against them were devastated.




JeffK -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/15/2012 10:00:53 PM)

Yeah, of the 12 Swordfish employed the Luftwaffe & kriegsmarine shot down 18 of them!




JeffK -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/15/2012 10:02:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

That little pipsqueek of a plane was one of the best early war TB. It carried out many a successful torp attacks against important targets E.g. Toranto, Bismark It was slow but reliable and durable. It was still going in 1945 all-be-it in ASW role. One of my favourite aircraft if you had already guessed.

Reason why Toranto or Bismark happen is very weak close-range AA (Toranto dont prepared totally cuz night and relax-mode, Bismark dont have any close-range AA and dont have working directors for HAA, also never sail before in real action and hevo zero experience against planes). Torpedobombers almost died when ship can start produce rain of bullets which kill plane before dropping fish. Only new tactic, better speed and new armor allow to continue use that kind of planes.


Any worse or inexperienced than an IJN Battleship whichin 1941/early 42??




btbw -> RE: Can torpedo bombers glide-bomb? (10/15/2012 11:59:10 PM)

Bismark dont have enough working directors for HAA (on aft used land-based version which mean no stabilisation and correction on roll/pitch). LAA had very bad flaks.
37mm had extremely low rate of fire - around 40 rounds per minute (in really even lesser) because had manual feeding by 1 round and semi-automatic loading. Mounting was hyroscope stabilized but in bad weather often had electric shortcuts from water (even from splashes), also hyroscopes was too weak for compansate disturbance during bad weather roll/pitch and fast changing bearing during maneuring of ships and target evading.
20mm - best of that type flak Vierling placed very high so cannot shoot on skimming planes. Also 20mm flak was outdated by their combination range/damage. And dont forget their 20 round clips which decrease ROF and lower ability for track targets with long shooting spray.
Combination of that dont left a chance for stop very low alt attack in very bad weather from more then dozen planes. When other ships meet danger of 13 torpedoes it often end with at least 1 hit.
For compare with IJN BBs - Bismark was solo raider when big daddies of Tojo never run alone.




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