As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (Full Version)

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abulbulian -> As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 8:27:17 AM)

It's been a frustrating start to a Japanese campaign in the ASW war already. I tried the following to sink or damage US subs in Dec 41 and can't seem to get any luck or I'm missing something to give me a chance to sink an allied sub.

- many air ASW patrols, especially around Formosa and South China Sea
- created and have 30+ ASW TF patrolling around key ports, Formosa, and home island.

Results: I can see all the subs around ... yippy, but can't seem to either locate to depth charge or when I do happen to depth charge, my bone head captains always seem to set the depth charge fuses way too shallow. In fact I'm losing many ships to his subs (DD, PC, PC) just in my ASW patrols for no results. Also, my air seem to be getting hits in the turn UI ":::::::<subtype> hit", but I've seen this so many times with no results that I've started to ignore it as virtually meaningless. I suppose maybe the good news is that the allied subs are spending more time sinking my ASW patrol ships (lower value except DDs) than my TR type ships. [:(]

I know historically US subs played a decisive factor in decimating the Japanese merchant fleet, but I would like to think I could be smarted than the Japanese were historically and us this bit of knowledge to help me better prepare and play the ASW war? Are allied subs just basically invincible until maybe 42,43, 44 when I can get better ASW devices/weapons on my ships and planes?

Thanks for any advice.

**NOTE: I allowed my opponent to have NON-DUD US torpedoes for some other concessions. This could very well be exactly why I'm more frustrated than most so far in my campaign.




Cannonfodder -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 8:49:02 AM)

Allowing US torpedoes to work will be very frustrating for the Japanese. In the first period of the war your ASW ship capabilities are limited. You got the type 95 depthcharge (can't reach diving depth of most submarines) and no real specialised ships, except precious DDs.

Later in the war you'll get super-E boats, who are a bit overpowered. Thats when the real subkilling could start.

Concentrating on the now, fly air patrols with your undertrained (in ASW) patrol and level bomber squadronsand assign enough escorts (PBs are ok for escorting cargo convoys, you'll probably lose a bunch of them). Train IJA level bomber squadrons in ASW. With working torpedoes this is mandatory. You won't sink a lot of submarines the first few months but once your pilots get better you'll see some more hits.

If you insist on using HK groups, try to hunt submarines in shallow water. This gives you a far bigger chance of hitting something.

Once ships can upgrade to the better type-95-MOD or the type 2 depthcharge, waste no time to do it. These charges can reach most allied submarines at any depth.

Hope this helps..




inqistor -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 9:07:57 AM)

Your best bet is to catch them in port [:)]

Also, submarines seem to sink most of the time, when they hit mines, so try to lure them into mines (or drop them over their heads).

There is also small chance, that submarine will attack enemy submarine, so you can try to place some short range ROs in the area. Also... I have not tried it, but maybe hunting groups with midgets? They are hard to employ anyway (now, try to read it without context [X(])

And, as Cannonfodderalready said - lure them into shallow water. That way they can not dive deep enough.




btbw -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 9:19:06 AM)

quote:

- many air ASW patrols, especially around Formosa and South China Sea

You dont need many. Use maximum shallow water hexes as route for your convoys. Concentrate interception of contacts in SHALLOW WATER with ASW ships equipped by Type 95 DC. Best naval skill for best ASW ships and 1 of them mut present as lead for whole ASW TF.
quote:

- created and have 30+ ASW TF patrolling around key ports, Formosa, and home island.

What i'm use:
Early stage
Toyoharu-Ominato-Yokosuka-Fusan-Takao air wings for detect and attack (r8 NavS @6k by 24xJake (60/40), r7 ASW @100feet by 27xKate (60/40).
Continous ASW TF between Sakhalin-Hokkaido, Hokkaido-Mainland, Mainland-Korea, Formosa-China, Oita hex, hex SE from Takamatu - with target catch passing subs.
Stand-by ASW ships (like Cha-1 class) in corner ports and cargo ports + AG with supply.
Hunter ASW TFs cruising on the way of cargo convoys (Indochina-Mainland, Manchukuo-Mainland).
Intercept TFs (fast DDs with type 95-mod2 DC at least or DMS/SC class with same DC) forming in Yokosuka, Kunashir, Fusan, Shanghai or where you have atm ships for work on open seas contacts.
At end of 1942
Adding long range seek&destroy air wings equipped with Netty (for IJA if you have enough planes/pilots/groups - Helen-1a). Adding more ships as escorts for convoys, doubling numbers of hunter and intercept TFs. Decreasing number of convoys TF with raising number ships in it. Creating specific ASW TF following cargo convoys (if have enough ships - advancing convoy by 1 hex). Including in convoy air support ship like AV/CS/CVE or at least CL with NavS mission on normal range (Jakes r8 @6k) in direction of future convoy move. Supporting convoy by closest air wings (with high naval skill pilots) with NavS (target is detect sub and raise her DL for better detect by escorts or even attack/destroy). When you have enough trained ASW pilots use them in ASW missions on the way of convoys.
P.S. And yes- you should have at least 150 mine at all ports shore outside Mainland and in keypart ports like Shanghai/Singa/Bataan/HK etc.




obvert -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 10:37:33 AM)

If you're not playing a mod that reduces ASW many of the above suggestions are very good. Killing subs is the goal for sure, but making them ineffective is also really helpful. Good search, both day and night keeps them at bay. The higher you raise their detection levels, the less likely they will be to have a successful attack. Also, your ships will be more likely to attack them. Some other tips:

1. Change your ASW ship captains to ones with good aggressiveness and naval scores. Above 60 is preferable. You won't have enough of those for all ASW ships. Also in a valuable transport TF (i.e. with lots of troops on board) it's better to have a TF commander with good naval score at least, which can help them avoid combat.

2. Make sure you have converted ALL Ansyu-C xAK to PB, and these will add a good number of escorts. The more escorts you have, the more likely for the sub attack to fail or the escort to be hit rather than the AK/AK/TK. There are also two other smaller classes, the To'su (which are 10 knot before conversion but 12knot after, so good with the Aden class and others) and the Kiso-E (11knots) that convert to PB. Most players convert some of these, but also some to ACM and other types. The ACM are needed to keep the mines from disappearing in port once laid, so they will help in the role against subs as well.

3. Mine between islands, on the straits where these subs move or try to choke off transport. Remember though that offensive mines (anything not laid in your own base hex) can be hit by your own ships as well.

4. Your pilots wil not be trained in ASW in the beginning. It takes a while. Start at least one IJAAF and one IJNAF training squad dedicated to produced ASW pilots. Train ASW (to locate and attack them) and low naval skills (to be able to hit them). Many players also train while on the ASW mission by setting groups to 40% ASW 40% training 20% rest at 1k altitude. I always run float plane search in infested areas at 1k as well to increase the number of attacks t the expense of more ops losses.

They will just keep getting better. I have run a few short tests, and about 1/4 of those notices of hit subs in the beginning few months seemed to actually be hits. But a hit might only mean 30 float damage on a sub, so it would just go home for repairs and come back later. Still, that gets them out of the shipping lanes for a few weeks.

5. Send ships through the shallows as much as possible to get subs in disadvantageous territory. The Type 95 DCs will not hit US subs at all 95% of the time in deep water hexes. This is based on the performance of early IJN DCs in the war and the good diving depth of US subs. So for ASW TFs in the deep water use only DDs with Type 95-mod2 or Type 2 DCs. Always make these 4 ship TFs if possible and run them right over known sub patrols with active search (day and night) in the area. The DDs will very rarely be hit by a sub if there is good search in the area, and if attacked will usually stand a good chance of at least damaging the sub if they have captains with high aggressiveness.

6. If you need more search, take off the second group of float planes from the CAs and re-size them on an AV or a CS to get a 9 - 24 plane group. Build more Jakes. They have 4 bombs, so are more likely to hit something than other float planes, plus good range at 8-10 hexes. In the beginning Lilys (4 x 100kg bombs) work well for IJAAF ASW, range 9-11, or Annes (only one 250kg bomb) in a pinch, range 6-8. Sallys and Helen Ia will likely be your best SW planes for IJAAF once you have enough of them. Kates are the best ASW plane period for me, and It'a good reason t build more of the B5N1 early to use up the engines. They also have multiple bombs (2x 250kg) and more maneuverability than the 2E planes, plus good range. Remember that on ASW missions range is halved.

7. For really valuable TFs (CVs, BBs or some troop ships) have the TF follow an ASW TF, and have a built in AV, CS or CV/CVE flying ASW patrols. I also train the KB pilots to ASW when not in danger of attack. That can be risky, though, so make sure you're well away from enemy CVs if your Kates are patrolling for subs.




Cannonfodder -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 11:21:18 AM)


quote:


4. Your pilots wil not be trained in ASW in the beginning. It takes a while. Start at least one IJAAF and one IJNAF training squad dedicated to produced ASW pilots. Train ASW (to locate and attack them) and low naval skills (to be able to hit them). Many players also train while on the ASW mission by setting groups to 40% ASW 40% training 20% rest at 1k altitude. I always run float plane search in infested areas at 1k as well to increase the number of attacks t the expense of more ops losses.


Are you sure that training low nav helps? I have had a lot of succes against submarines with just ASW trained up. I am not convinced.





cohimbra -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 11:25:39 AM)

dear abulbulian, no one said the most important thing: pray, pray, pray![8D]




btbw -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 11:33:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

dear abulbulian, no one said the most important thing: pray, pray, pray![8D]

leave pray to gods, we trust in guns)




cohimbra -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 12:11:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw


quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

dear abulbulian, no one said the most important thing: pray, pray, pray![8D]

leave pray to gods, we trust in guns)


pray your guns! pray our rum!




abulbulian -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 12:37:23 PM)

Some great advice! Thanks everybody that responded. I definitely need to work more on using the shallows to put the subs at a disadvantage. So I should be setting the altitude of my ASW planes at 1k? Yes, I was hoping the the future upgrades would help my DDs improve their ASW rating. Most are somewhere between 2-4. So by having air units with a combination of training and ASW will improve the pilots ASW rating?





cohimbra -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 12:46:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Most are somewhere between 2-4.



You have also a good number of SC with ASW between 4-8. They have very
poor endurance, I use them for patrol my home water.




Cannonfodder -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 12:47:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

So I should be setting the altitude of my ASW planes at 1k? So by having air units with a combination of training and ASW will improve the pilots ASW rating?




I would say around 1-2k for kills and up to 6k (my favourite patrol plane altiude) for detection and general searching. I would set one or two large groups to dedicated training untill they are around 70 skill in ASW. Others you can use to patrol and train on the job untill your first batch of ASW pilots is trained up.

Good luck




obvert -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 1:06:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder


quote:


4. Your pilots wil not be trained in ASW in the beginning. It takes a while. Start at least one IJAAF and one IJNAF training squad dedicated to produced ASW pilots. Train ASW (to locate and attack them) and low naval skills (to be able to hit them). Many players also train while on the ASW mission by setting groups to 40% ASW 40% training 20% rest at 1k altitude. I always run float plane search in infested areas at 1k as well to increase the number of attacks t the expense of more ops losses.


Are you sure that training low nav helps? I have had a lot of succes against submarines with just ASW trained up. I am not convinced.



From everything I heard ages ago when discussions of rader's ASW success were ongoing, it seemed this was necessary for 'hitting' subs, not necessarily for finding and attacking them. It does make sense, but there is a chance all of these people were wrong. I didn't test it in any meaningful way other than to use it in game. I do get hit reports nearly every turn, sometimes several.

Either way, this makes them dual purpose pilots that can work well in a ship killer/kamikaze role later.

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Some great advice! Thanks everybody that responded. I definitely need to work more on using the shallows to put the subs at a disadvantage. So I should be setting the altitude of my ASW planes at 1k? Yes, I was hoping the the future upgrades would help my DDs improve their ASW rating. Most are somewhere between 2-4. So by having air units with a combination of training and ASW will improve the pilots ASW rating?


Some like them at 100ft. That will give more ops losses but possibly better attack results. For 2Es that low could add to fatigue as well.

I fly Kates a 2k to use their nav bombing skill rather than low nav as the KB pilots are already in the 70s at nav bombing.

For Jakes and other float planes on night search use only 1k. They won't see much from any higher.

Any mission can be set to a percentage, and if training is also set to a percentage, then they will train in that mission. You can get them to train another mission as well by using the second column mission plus train, or something like Nav bomb mission, 40% ASW, 40% train 20% rest which will train nav bombing (primary mission) even though the comment next to the training might say 'general training.' Whatever you set, check it after a week and look at what category is red/green for the pilots. These indicate a rise in skill happening.

For your DDs the total DC rating is important, but Type 2 and Type 95 mod 2 are better even if they don't have as many. The small slow 10 knot sub-chaser class are nearly useless unless in the shallows and given more aggressive captains, even though they have a rating of 8, because they are all Type 95 (and because they're so slow). If you do get them to attack and stick with it, (high aggressiveness) they will sometimes pound a sub thoroughly.




Shark7 -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 5:33:24 PM)

As a longtime JFB, I can tell you the best way to sink an Allied sub is to catch it tied to the pier and use a port attack mission. You'd be surprised how easy they sink when hit by an 800kg bomb. [;)]

That being said, if you need to catch it at see there are only a few things you can do, all of which have been covered here. Like it or not, your ASW escorts are going to be very ineffective at first (the Type 95 DC can't reach the depth that subs can dive to). However, you still need to adequately escort your convoys, remember a submarine generally goes to periscope depth to fire a torpedo, your ASW escorts will at least force it to go deep.

I'm not sure if a USN submarine of the era could fire a bearing only attack from depth using only sonar, but I bet there is some one here who can tell me. With modern subs it is a non-issue.




LargeSlowTarget -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 9:41:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I'm not sure if a USN submarine of the era could fire a bearing only attack from depth using only sonar, but I bet there is some one here who can tell me. With modern subs it is a non-issue.


According to Blair (author of "Silent Victory"), pre-war the USN considered periscope attacks as too dangerous and encouraged sub skippers to make "sonar attacks" from a depth of 100 feet. I don't remember having read about successful attacks using this method.


Also see http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/sonar.html:

Quote: "Pre-war American submarine theorists were so confident of the capabilities of Sonar in submarines that doctrine called for all attacks to be made submerged, using only Sonar, and never exposing the periscope. It was believed that radar had developed sufficiently that exposing the periscope was too great a risk. As it turned out, periscope attacks remained as the primary method, since the Sonar attack methods resulted in too many misses."


Ok, just found this on http://www.hnsa.org/doc/subsinpacific.htm#pg10:

" U.S. Submarine Sonar Attacks
Only 31 of the 4,873 attacks analyzed after the war could be described as "sound" attacks, and none of these were successful."




jetjockey -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/6/2012 10:41:39 PM)

If you wish to sink Allied subs, look to your Asashio Class DDs early in the war. Deploy them in pairs in areas where the Allies concentrate their subs, set to patrol and on computer control; you will be very pleased with the results. The Asashios only have a ASW rating of two, but that is deceiving; they mount two Type 95 Mod-2 depth charges. The Type 95 Mod-2 DCs have a bigger punch, deeper reach, and are more accurate than the Type 95 DCs. An added bonus is that the Asashios start the game with very good experience levels. Match these DDs with excellent leaders and you will start sending Allied subs to the bottom.

You may note that the Yugumo and the Fubuki classes have better ASW profiles, but their superior AA makes them better for your carrier TFs.




crsutton -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/7/2012 12:31:50 AM)

I would not worry about it too much. Just make as many cheap escorts as you can. An escorted convoy even if it is just one escort will greatly reduce successful Allied attacks. Usually, the sub shoots at the escorts and most of the time does not hit. This does work for the Allies as well although the Japanese subs are a bit more deadly in 42.




CyrusSpitama -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/7/2012 1:13:15 AM)

By February you should be able to have enough decently trained pilots to handle at least some key ASW coverage. As mentioned above, be sure to train some IJA AND IJN LBA assets for this. Nells and Betties(with a Kate squadron or two) for IJN and Anns and Lily's are my personal choices for this work(early game). Recent forum discussions have me considering doing a little Val ASW training on my carriers, but I haven't honestly pursued this much yet. I clear out most of the pilots in a few key groups and focus train them in ASW, search, plus some Naval bombing. I have no plans for these units to be doing ground bombing. Best results are obtained by starting with lower experience fresh pilots as they focus train a little faster... i think... It's what I been doing anyhow :P

Bottom line, early on be happy you are constantly detecting the subs since a detected sub is less a threat to your forces, plus your SC and DD ASW TFs near key bases should then react to these. This is the message I got from the forums when I saw my first attempts at shipping management suffer horrendous losses. You did remember to make some of these task forces, right? :) Another lesson I learned early is to never leave convoys unescorted in hot zones, as this almost guarantees the sub will stick around for extra torp shots, plus some gun target practice.

I was unaware lownav influenced sub bombing attacks. How many other folks know about this? Do we have any real testing done on this? I have almost no lownav trained units as I wasn't aware this had any great influence on attacks. Either my bombers are attacking from 11k on average, or dropping torps in the water at 200m. I didn't think ASW at 6k counted as lownav either.

edit- forgot to mention a number of those early DMS get DC upgrades early. Use them as ASW assets with a longer range than those SCs.





Gräfin Zeppelin -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/7/2012 1:40:49 AM)

Well I think Low Naval does nothing for ASW. I never ever have seen this skill increasing in any ASW group.




crsutton -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/7/2012 4:32:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Well I think Low Naval does nothing for ASW. I never ever have seen this skill increasing in any ASW group.


You are right, no effect what-so-ever. The only skill you need for successful ASW attacks is "ASW." Overall experience might help as well.




jmalter -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/7/2012 6:14:55 AM)

i agree w/ Gräfin Z & crs - LowN skill is doing nothing for me in ASW.

IMO: a good ASW group has trained ASW into the low 70's, then it can go on ASW ops. keeping high detection on enemy subs will reduce their ability to find & torp your ships. over time, your active ASW planes will gain exp, then they will start making hits. but i suspect that only 1 in 4 of the hits reported in the game are actually damaging the sub! but if you hear the oogah-horn noise, at least you've forced the sub to submerge, which limits its ability to detect/attack your TFs.




obvert -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/7/2012 8:45:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Well I think Low Naval does nothing for ASW. I never ever have seen this skill increasing in any ASW group.


You are right, no effect what-so-ever. The only skill you need for successful ASW attacks is "ASW." Overall experience might help as well.



Interesting that low naval skill is considered non-relevant by several players here. I wish I could find the earlier discussion on this.

Since it probably takes less time to do a test than to search on this server, I'll try some out. It would be good to get some solid numbers on this and other things to do with hitting sub reports vs actual hits.

In the meantime, for me low naval skill is a component of training ASW groups for two main reasons. Firstly if I train ASW to 70 I get pilots with 40-43 experience levels. If I send them out to fly ASW there will be more ops losses at 1k altitude until they are near 50 experience at least. So by training low naval to 60-70 they also have an experience rise to get to 50-55. Secondly they then have a second purpose as low level ship killers and will work a kamikazes later with no extra training.




CyrusSpitama -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/8/2012 9:55:52 PM)

Revisiting this topic, I wanted to say that this post made me do more detailed searches on ASW assets. There is a large number of ASW capable ships with the modded type 95 DCs available early war. I have many of them assigned to ASW duties, but certain ships (like the long range Es and DMS) prove more useful as convoy or combat escorts because of high AA stats. I suppose I could rethink this a bit more and have those upgraded DC ships working exclusively in the deeper water ports so that they could easily switch between ASW and escort duties. I know currently that use of all those Kiso PBs is limited to convoy/amphib escort work and only does ASW at the shallow water ports( Singora is one location). This is my current method of ship assignments anyhow.

In my earlier games, the sub damage to me by Allies was overwhelming. Currently, it is has been reduced to annoying. The primary changes I made were focused pilot training(with rookies so they train faster) and more careful assignment of certain ships to ASW duty. Clearly, my subs sunk needs help, but I have yet to see the really insane ASW assets that Japan receives later war. For now, constant sighting and harassment (by crappy DC equipped ships) keeps them at bay.

I saw another poster mentioned doing some testing on ASW(planes only I think) and I am curious what results will come from that. I don't recall which thread had this mention, but it was in the last couple of days.

P.S. Note there are a number of these DC upgrades occurring after December, but still very early war.




janh -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/9/2012 9:10:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
6. If you need more search, take off the second group of float planes from the CAs and re-size them on an AV or a CS to get a 9 - 24 plane group. Build more Jakes. They have 4 bombs, so are more likely to hit something than other float planes, plus good range at 8-10 hexes. In the beginning Lilys (4 x 100kg bombs) work well for IJAAF ASW, range 9-11, or Annes (only one 250kg bomb) in a pinch, range 6-8. Sallys and Helen Ia will likely be your best SW planes for IJAAF once you have enough of them. Kates are the best ASW plane period for me, and It'a good reason t build more of the B5N1 early to use up the engines. They also have multiple bombs (2x 250kg) and more maneuverability than the 2E planes, plus good range. Remember that on ASW missions range is halved.


Good idea, I never thought of this. some more time to spent organizing here, but one group per CA is sufficient.
I had good luck with Jackes and Kates as well. Jackes give the plenty FP sqrns a good purpose aside from recon or nuisance raids from undeveloped forward bases. On the frontline they would just serve as training targets for the allies.

I have experimented with CS and AV in convoys, but have never had anything to show for it. At least not in terms of sub hunting. Might be they have had an indirect effect via detection, though. Has anybody attempted to create specific hunter-killer groups around some V deck and a few high ASW/#DC racks destroyers like those Asashios or Kageros? Is it worth having some of those cruise around?

One thing for sure... not without historical torpedoes in this game. I think without the fail-rate, the IJ would be in deep deep trouble.




cavalry -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/9/2012 10:09:17 AM)

Do allied subs with radar avoid air ASW better?




CyrusSpitama -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/9/2012 7:19:12 PM)

For this game engine, I believe radar is about detection and not used for avoidance. Of course, if you have a fleet with low threat threshold and detected enemies, that should kick in here.




jzardos -> RE: As Japanese how can I sink a sub? (10/10/2012 4:26:41 AM)

If I have planes on ASW mission, but not 'training' the pilots still gain skill in ASW correct?




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