RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (Full Version)

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IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/1/2013 5:07:28 AM)

Although we got some snow, it wasn't enough to fully enable 1st Pz Armee to "fix" its situation. The weather line between the North Soviet and Central Soviet (blue vs green in the screen shot) was just about 3 hexes too far north to allow 1st Pz Armee to complete the encirclement.

It did allow 17th Army (by attaching 9th Pz to spearhead the attack) to gain some 20 miles deeper across the Oskol River in an attempt to make the Soviet position more difficult - and perhaps, if the weather gods really are accomodating, to possibly allow for an encirlcement.

1st Pz Armee even manages two attacks in the mud to gain some position - but with the mud, there is zero chance to complete a pocket.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/27EAE8848EC649B1B8BB3CB530246B60.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/1/2013 8:12:13 AM)

Turn 44; Apr 16, 1942......Mud with snow in the South Soviet Zone

Snow in April? Again? Yep!!!! Unexpected, and most welcome!

Remainder of the front stays quiet.

Only 11th Army can really take advantage of this, and while not not anywhere fully prepared for offensive operations, we go with what we have. With the XXX "mobile Korps" and its newly arrived 22nd Pz spearheading the attack (anyone know if there is any disadvatange vs a PzKps if a good armor leader has command of an infantry corps?), 11th Army gains some 40 miles and reaches the Mius. 22nd Pz conducts a spoiling attack on a rifle Bde digging in, but can't quite get across the river. Even so, Taganrog - with some industry in it - is threatened.

Good gains with a lucky weather break. 11th Army is now in good position to threaten the Stalino area from the south.

Nice....

[image]local://upfiles/32782/9B69D942348D40588E03EA3D03C24E3D.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/2/2013 12:19:55 AM)

Turn 45; Apr 23, 1942.............Mud with Snow in the South Soviet Zone...again!

Snow keeps falling in the South Soviet Zone - amazing! Gotta love variable weather!!!

Vast majority of the front remains locked in the mud, just watching the Soviets slowly fortify there positions - even located some of the first Tank Corps just NW of Moscow! That was all the excitement there was...

AGS continues to be active. 1st Pz Armee, supporting by 17th Army, despite the mud, finally managed to nip the Soviet salient off east of Kharkov. What once was an opportunity to cut about 20 divisions off, has finally managed to isolate 2xRifle and 1xTk Bde. Better than nothing of course....

11th Army again takes advantage of the snow - destroying the rifle division it isolated last turn was what I figured would be best outcome for this turn....but with the snow, infantry gets a firm bridgehead across the Mius, and takes Taganrog - with its industry intact. Bonus.

This gets 11th Army in good position to support the summer offensive - as long as the Soviets hold on to the Stalino area, the Soviet position is very vulnerable here.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/790F68DB4F8F4FFA9593467A8A4A9381.jpg[/image]




janh -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/2/2013 7:41:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
(anyone know if there is any disadvatange vs a PzKps if a good armor leader has command of an infantry corps?)


Happy New Year!

Indeed very dangerous for the Soviets, certainly Scar must have reasons to leave his first line exposed like this.

AFAIK no disadvantage for the Germans doing so. The +1 armor leader bonus or the Guard boni only apply to Soviet Tank Corps later. Call it German ingenuity. Helio would have another of his point where German C&C excels in flexibility.




Schmart -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/3/2013 8:59:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
(anyone know if there is any disadvatange vs a PzKps if a good armor leader has command of an infantry corps?)


Happy New Year!

Indeed very dangerous for the Soviets, certainly Scar must have reasons to leave his first line exposed like this.

AFAIK no disadvantage for the Germans doing so. The +1 armor leader bonus or the Guard boni only apply to Soviet Tank Corps later. Call it German ingenuity. Helio would have another of his point where German C&C excels in flexibility.


I thought that PzKorps and Tank Armies had the ability to draw more fuel, as mobile units will need more of it, although with the overloaded logistics system as it is players probably won't see that much difference.




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/5/2013 3:20:39 AM)

Turn 47; May 7, 1942.........Mud in North Soviet and European and CLEAR in South and Central Soviet Zones....nice

AGN and AGC still locked in mud continue preparing for the Summer Offensive. All panzers have been pulled off the line, the last two to go, from XXXX PzKps, are now clear. 2nd and 4th Pz Armees are well to the rear building up combat power. Offensive is "planned" to start across the entire front in the beginning of June - but two events have changed that.

The Soviets, which surprised me, have abandoned Orel - and are pulling east. This really reduces the Orel Salient and is a smart move to preserve the force. It does abandoned some good defensive positions as well as a good VP city. Can't do much about this directly as AGC is still locked in mud. However, AGS is another story....

This event signals that the Soviets may do the same in the Stalino region, so while AGS isn't exactly fully set (2xPz Divs are in Kharkov still building combat power), we're going to launch AGS to cut off the Stalino Area now, and not wait until the Soviets pull east. This will of course risk mud hitting in the middle of the offensive, but at this moment, its worth the risk.



[image]local://upfiles/32782/10084282CD254F7FBD06ABA582599180.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/5/2013 3:36:39 AM)

AGS's offensive goes like clockwork - its good to be back with a major offensive.

17th Army's infantry opens up the Soviet front line troops' position - looks like the Sovs were pulling back - to the Donets River and haven't fortified this mid jump position. Was a good time to strike! In any case, 17th Army infantry does a good job, allowing 1st Pz Armee's infantry to push the Soviet gap further and deeper.

1st Armee's PzKps are next, starting with XXXXVIII PzKps which was still back toward Kharkov - still had enough MPs to complete the breach in the Soviet lines. Next up, III PzKps gets into the Soviet Rear, scattering numerous airbases and routed units. Few units, a couple of brigades and a scattering of divisions, are easily brushed aside. Last to go in is the XIV PzKps which completes 1st Pz Armee's task - linking up with 11th Army and establishing a corridor.
11th Army does well, its infantry opening the gap, and its "XXX PzKps" pushes through to effect link up. Rum 3rd Army fills in for 11th Army infantry near Stalino, and Rum 4th Army advances slowly as the Soviets pulled back NW of Stalino.

Overall, a nice start to the Summer offensive - early too. I figure the corridor can hold - Soviets have substantial reserves in the Moscow-Tula area, but I don't think they are too robust here in the South. If it holds, it should yield about 25 divisions or so.

Assuming the corridor holds, the focus will be digesting the pocket and preparing for the next step of the offensive in the south - that will have to be thought through a bit as I was going to launch 1st Pz Armee's attack when 4th Pz Armee was striking out from north of Orel, and heading toward Voronezh. That obviously isn't going to be synchronized now. I can live with that....

[image]local://upfiles/32782/62771C272DA94319BA646D51B52B0DBB.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/5/2013 3:38:39 AM)

And since its the start of the month, here's the data...

Destroyed units aren't much again. This will change significantly in a few turns....

[image]local://upfiles/32782/782459B3076F4E9B95A2557180723EBB.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/5/2013 3:40:59 AM)

Losses....again no major surprises or stuff out of the ordinary. The big jump in Axis captured can be attributed to some Rumanians that were pushed back.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/768B4A2F6CB041D69EAD791E6276FA65.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/5/2013 3:46:05 AM)

Forces availabe is also pretty consistant - both sides gain. Germans still getting a number of divisions each month, and the Soviets still are getting over 300k monthly.

I'm guessing the lack of growth in Soviet tanks is due to converting the tank brigades into Tank Corps. Its certainly not due to any significant Soviet tank losses.

Last of note is the change of command in AGS. Rundstedt's dismissal and replaced by von Bock. Not worth the APs to change at this point.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/C8B20B3D02F2454E9D0F4A6D07C4BF5B.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/5/2013 3:48:29 AM)

Last is the panzerwaffe snapshot. Still building combat power. The "loss" of manpower is due to the changing TOEs of the panzer divisions rather than any serious losses. Tank strength continues to climb due to production, no new panzer divisions arrived.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/B445AE0CAD8040DAAE09CBC7E5323D1A.jpg[/image]




Wuffer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/5/2013 4:53:02 AM)

ouch!
... and the majority of panzers are not even commited yet.




randallw -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/5/2013 8:17:54 AM)

Ugly potential loss for the Soviet side with those mountain divisions being cut off.




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/11/2013 4:09:17 AM)

Turn 48; May 14, 1942.......Mud with Clear in North Soviet Zone.

General Mud is sure playing on the German side so far - Clear when I need it to encircle the Stalino Pocket and mud to hold it against Soviet attacks. Plus, we'll take advantage of an early clear turn near Moscow!

AGN's 18th Army supports a limited attack toward Kalinin with the clear weather. AGC's 3rd Pz Group's XXXIX PzKps takes advantage and pushes some 20 miles south of the city. Combined with LVII PzKps attack further south, this might just unhinge the Soviet defenses near the Volga Res. German attacks key on level 2 forts close to being level 3 - those at 75% or better are prime targets to displace prior to completion of lvl 3. German attacks are limited due to the Soviet's effective use of reserves - LVII PzKps attacks are initially repulsed by the commitment of reserves - but multiple attacks carry the day!

9th Army executes the same basic strategy, focusing on lvl 2 forts - and this, despite effective reserves again, manage to key advances. The army's northern attack effectively isolates 5xRifle Divs trapped by the Kiln Res. The southern attack closes to within 20 miles of Moscow!

Last for AGC, a combination of infantry assaults by 2nd Army, and then exploited by 4th Army's XXXX PzKps after the infantry breach the river, effectively clear the Soviet defenses off the Oka and Ula River lines. This will give 2nd Pz Armee a superb jump off point for its sumer offensive - one less river to cross.....

[image]local://upfiles/32782/B18DF0B1F3B84A9B938BC633CEF09C41.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/11/2013 4:12:19 AM)

AGS focuses on ensuring the Stalino Pocket remains secure. The Soviets, during their half of the preceding turn, manage to force some Rumanians back - first commitment of the Soviet Tank Corps in action - and make some progress, but do not reach the pocket.

Now with mud, the German progress to move infantry forward is limited, but so will the Soviet's ability to counter attack. The pocket should hold.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/92E687BADC9E46AA866B1C5D3AADE9DC.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/18/2013 6:02:34 AM)

Turn 49; May 21, 1942......Mud in European and Central Soviet, Clear in South Soviet, Snow in North Soviet

Variable weather continues to provide opportunities. The snow in the north Soviet is a welcome surprise as the Soviets managed to regain a line of communications to the trapped 5 Rifle Divsions NW of Moscow - and thereby isolating the two lead divisions of LVII PzKps. With a mud turn, this would have been problematic.

As it turns out, the snow allows attacks to continue. 18th Army takes Kalinin, and, with XXXIX PzKps in support, establishes two bridgheads across the rivers where the Soviets had established defenses - this is to allow the option of a more northerly approach toward Moscow if the situation warrants it. I was hoping to keep 3rd Pz Armee's attack more direct, in perhaps a shallow envelopment of Moscow, but this may not be practical as Soviet defenses seem rather robust south of Kalinin.

3rd Pz Armee itself, re-establishes a corridor to it's isolated divisions, and agains traps the Soviets - but this time, only 2xRifle Divs - the other three routed out. 9th Army also continues pressure due west of Moscow - gaining a little more ground, and getting closer to the city.

These spring attacks have taken the initial objectives of the summer offensive - ahead of schedule. And have pushed the Soviets dangerously close to their Capital - with little room for error. Still, as time marches forward, I can expect to see Soviet Rifle Corps shortly. This will make progress towards Moscow very challenging - We'll need a mobile offensive to flank and encircle strong Soviet defenses, and attack into weaker defended hexes. As the Soviets will know Moscow is the prime objective, I expect them to throw in everything to hold the city.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/58E2E8C1179A482BA3D91FA1D49A3707.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/18/2013 6:05:28 AM)

No major changes to AGS's position. The clear weather in the South Soviet allows the two Rumanian Armies and 11th Army to begin the slow process of reducing the Stalino Pocket. Good progress is made by 11th Army, and all told some 8 Soviet divisions surrender. A good start.

1st Pz Armee shifts some forces into their "corridor", but don't attack - they have the mud. Goal here until the mud clears is push infantry into the corridor and pull the panzers out of the line where possible.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/4DD7B428DE324B738E539B488E2B0F99.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/20/2013 6:51:02 PM)

Turn 50; May 28, 1942........Mud with clear in North Soviet Zone

Continued mud keeps the majority of AGS from making any progress in reducing the Stalino Pocket, but the snow near Moscow lets AGN's 18th Army, AGC and AGS's 6th Army make some prelimary attacks to set conditions for the Summer Offensive.

18th Army continues to battle in tough terrain near Kalinin, attempting to "turn the shoulder" of the Soviet defenses here. Tough going. Soviets are dug in with level 2 forts, combined with rivers and swamp terrain - and yes, the Soviets are making good use of reserves. Still, 18th Army has good infantry and force three hexes from the Soviets at reasonable cost. This allows 3rd Pz Armee's XXIX PzKps to push past the Volga Res. This Soviet position, with major rivers, swamps and the reservoir itself is a very tough nut to crack. Therefore, its essential the Germans can penetrate it prior to the Soviets locking it down with level 3 forts. XXXIX PzKps does well, attacking level 1 forts in swamp that aren't ready to defend, and gains 20 miles north of the reservoir.

3rd Pz Armee infantry reduces the two trapped Soviet Rifle Divs, which allows LVII PzKps to make a narrow penetration of 20 miles behind the Soviet main line - not enough to link up with XXXIX Pzkps - but perhaps enough to collapse the Soviet level 3 forts south of the reservoir. If he trys to hold, he's likely to get cut off. If he pulls out, this greatly simplifies the area in which 3rd Pz Armee will attack next month as the northern axis to take Moscow.

9th Army doesn't do much, supporting the LVII PzKps with some infantry and taking a well defended level 3 fort, straightining out its front just SW of Moscow.

Lastly, 4th Army finally managed to pull its XXXX PzKps out of the line near Tula, where it was supporting 2nd Army's attacks. It will now rest and refit for a week or so before attacking north of Kaluga.

Overall, the area west of Moscow is, as expected, well defended. Numerous level 3 forts, backed by reserves which do commit and in places, really bad terrain to attack through. There is no question the Soviets know the Germans are coming through this area, and have prepared well. The best we can hope for is avoiding a grinding attack by attacking with the panzers to form narrow corridors, forcing the Soviets to abandon good positions - with the intent being that subsequent positions aren't as ready to defend. I don't see a major breakthrough likely initially - perhaps, just perhaps, if I can push far enough north of Moscow, across the Moscow-Volga Canal, I'll get some running room.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/4A4A667E15BC44A9BBD1D45B6348A0D8.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/20/2013 7:01:45 PM)

In the Tula area, the clear weather allows mainly some reorganization, but also some limited attacks. The major attacking forces that will assault this area in the Summer offensive, the 2nd and 4th Pz Armees, are still locked in mud, but 2nd Pz uses rail to move its infantry foward to assembly area positions west of Tula.

4th Army, as mentioned, pulled its XXXX PzKps north of Kaluga, which forced 2nd Army to extend its front. This prevented 2nd Army from launching any major attacks - just one to clear a level 2 fort postion that was about to turn to a level 3 fort. In doing these operations, 2nd Army is taking risk by having two divisions break down to regiments defending 50 miles of frontage near Orel.

6th Army commits its XXXXVI PzKps to a spoiling attack - take 3 hexes where the level 2 forts were at about 80%. Hesitant to do this as it does telegraph that 6th Army is oriented more towards Tula than Voronezh, but waiting for those positions to become level 3 forts is not a good idea.

Also taking some risk by stretching the Hun 2nd Army out to 6th Army's south. Unless the Soviets decide to really mass a major force in a serious offensive - and I don't think they can afford the formations for that right now - the minor Allies will be able to defend long stretches of frontage. This releases a number of German formations to mass for the attack....yeah, I know, this was done historically with disasterous results near Stalingrad. But with the summer weather, and keeping the initiative, I figure the risk is minimal. Should the offensive bog down this summer, and the Soviets have a chance to regain the initiative, this will be a very dangerous position - as will the frontages defended by the Rumanians and eventually the Italians.



[image]local://upfiles/32782/2EA170A42F3249898C80D869750DDCB6.jpg[/image]




juret -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/21/2013 10:01:42 AM)

U are strong in TULA/OREL AREA, whuts the target with 2nd and 4th panzer armies ? moscow south pincer?




hooooper -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/22/2013 12:09:01 AM)

Judging by the screenshot, you don't seem to do much, or in fact any, reconnaissance. Do you find that it's not necessary?




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/28/2013 1:06:18 PM)

quote:

Judging by the screenshot, you don't seem to do much, or in fact any, reconnaissance. Do you find that it's not necessary?


I'm a pretty casual player when it comes to recon. I'll do a bit from time to time, but right now, I don't want to tip my hand where a major offensive is coming. And frankly, right now, I just assume each river line has a level 2 fort on it and go from there.

You'll see more recon once I move 2nd and 4th Pz Armees up to the front in the next couple of turns.




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/28/2013 1:08:01 PM)

quote:

U are strong in TULA/OREL AREA, whuts the target with 2nd and 4th panzer armies ? moscow south pincer?


Juret - 2nd Pz is the south Moscow pincer - I'll do an update shortly - life has gotten in the way of the game recently - and will try to lay out my summer offensive plans.




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/30/2013 3:56:29 AM)

Turn 51; Jun 4, 1942........Clear

Clear weather arrives along the entire front - time to reduce the Stalino Pocket and set the final preparations for the Summer Offensive.

West and Northwest of Moscow, AGN's 18th Army and AGC's 3rd Pz and 9th Armies continue to drive deep wedges in the Soviet fortification belts protecting the capital.

18th Army's infantry attacks east from Kalinin, providing a springboard for XXXIX PzKps to drive east and around the Volga Res. One key attack against 2xRifle Divs fail, forcing the PzKps to push further east before heading south. This is just enough to prevent a linkup with LVII PzKps driving a spearhead eastward against stiff opposition. LVII PzKps finds a weak spot, but it's oriented south, toward 9th Army which is attacking east.

End result of these attacks are two Soviet Salients jutting west between the German spearheads - which are stretched thin, and unable to bring enough combat power to cut off the well dug in salients. Its a standoff for the moment.

I fully expect the Soviets to counter attack the now exposed German panzer spearheads - hopefully they will fail in cutting them off...

If we can hold the turn, there is a good chance we can cut off the Soviet salients - which is essential to resuming the attack toward Moscow.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/C84508F65E7040F7A818403632C0F2B4.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/30/2013 4:06:37 AM)

South of Moscow, near Tula, the time has come to bring up both 2nd and 4th Pz Armee. To provide some room for the buildup, 2nd Army infantry attacks to widen the salient west of Tula. Soviets commit reserves well, but German infantry with engineer support push the Sovies back.

Recently arrived infantry from both Pz Armees take positions in the line, while the panzer rail and road march to final assembly positions behind the lines.

4th Army also conducts a preliminary attack north of Kalinin, taking a level 3 fort position before it can be reinforced.

Moving the panzers forward will definately "tip the hand" - not that it hasn't been painfully obvious that a major attack is building just west of Tula....

[image]local://upfiles/32782/C3AAAAE5B7554DFF988C70EA0B778251.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/30/2013 4:13:44 AM)

In the south, the main emphasis was on reducing the Stalino Pocket - accomplished by infantry from 17th, 11th, 1st Pz and the Rumanian armies. The pocket falls relatively quickly, without any surprises.

With most of the infantry tied up, AGS makes some preliminary attacks eastward. 1st Pz establishes a bridgehead across the Aidar River while 11th Army pushes against stiff (with reserves) resistance NE of Rostov.

Soviet forces still appear fairly weak here in the south, and I want to take advantage of it, before they can dig in and fortify - especially along the Don/Donets Rivers. However, neither 1st Pz and 11th Army is concentrated, and in need of a rest. Goal will be to destroy the Soviets west of these major rivers, and with some luck, the Soviets will attempt to hold west of the rivers until the Germans can concentrate and attack in force. Figure that will take about 2 weeks....

[image]local://upfiles/32782/FADB000237B84C88A193B9F2212FE02E.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/30/2013 4:17:32 AM)

And for the monthy admin stuff.......

May was a good month indeed.....unexpected clear weather certainly helped!


Destroyed units reflect the sizable haul from the Stalino Pocket - over 30 divisions, including some valuable mountain divisions. Note the lack of armored units however. Soviets seem to be focused on transitioning the tank Bdes into Tank Corps - and keeping them in reserve for the defense as well as available for counter attack.

Now to maintain this each month this summer.....

[image]local://upfiles/32782/2186356175E945A7B056D740F1E71360.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/30/2013 4:20:17 AM)

Losses also reflect the effect of the Stalino Pocket - as well as the bitter fighting west and northwest of Moscow. German victories are not without casualties....

Still half a million Soviet lost in a month - and pushing the Soviets over 3 million captured is sweet...very sweet...

[image]local://upfiles/32782/3BF8EA0361BE4B2E9E31337AE029BF9C.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/30/2013 4:29:10 AM)

Forces available.

German forces continue to expand due to reinforcements. Panzers strength only slightly expands despite fresh panzer division arrival - losses taken in the Moscow fighting negate the reinforcements.

Soviets show the first drop in manpower since October! That is welcome news, but it took a loss of 500k to drop the manpower 140,000. Thats going to be tough to duplicate each month! Of course, if we continue to seize manpower centers, we can push the Soviets to the edge...

[image]local://upfiles/32782/DA73C514481F469395330A7DE43F63D9.jpg[/image]




IdahoNYer -> RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited (1/30/2013 4:32:09 AM)

Panzerwaffe strength actually drops - 10th Pz has departed to the west, and 24th Pz has just arrived. The drop can be attributed to the new 42 TOE. Still, its going to be hard for the panzer strength to increase now that the Summer Offensive is about to begin.

As an interesting side note, 18th Pz remains weak at only 73 tanks - despite being in refit, near its HQ in the rear for a number of months. Strange....

[image]local://upfiles/32782/A054A985DCA84ACF88BD0FF289695835.jpg[/image]




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