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Missouri_Rebel -> Manual Download (9/30/2012 11:24:26 PM)

Is there a chance that you will release the manual for DL for those of us that would be new to WiF so we can see if it something we would be willing to dedicate the time to learn, especially considering that the A.I. that I was hoping to help teach me will be absent upon release?

TIA

mo reb




michaelbaldur -> RE: Manual Download (9/30/2012 11:29:17 PM)


the manual are more or less the same as the standard wif rules.

and the standard wif rules can be downloaded from ADG home page




michaelbaldur -> RE: Manual Download (9/30/2012 11:31:42 PM)


http://www.a-d-g.com.au/

downloads/ World in Flames Rules Aug 2004




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Manual Download (9/30/2012 11:39:41 PM)

Yeah, I've seen those some years ago. I was thinking of something that showed examples, hyperlinked index and how one would perform actions with the game engine etc..

Releasing a manual independently from the game is something Matrix does at times.

mo reb





Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Manual Download (9/30/2012 11:58:07 PM)

Just downloaded the RAW Doc. Not what I was looking for at all. The idea is to attract potential buyers not turn them off with a dated document laid out with space in mind that has had all of its limited examples removed.

mo reb




Cad908 -> RE: Manual Download (10/1/2012 3:28:07 AM)

Mo Reb,

Here is a link to the final edition rules with the examples included. The one on ADG's website for some reason does not include the graphics. It was done by a fan, and I would give credit if I knew his / her name.

http://manlig.org/wif/RaW-7mAug2004.pdf

This RAW forms the basis of the game.

Two other documents:

Rules as Coded (RAC) Some 98% of RAC is directly from RAW. It provides clarifications to the rules and the transition form a paper game to the computer one.
Players Manual (PM) Details sequence of play and all the forms used in MWIF, along with many other goodies.

are part of MWIF. The timing of their release is up to Matrix.


-Rob






SewerStarFish -> RE: Manual Download (10/1/2012 3:39:11 AM)

I certainly can see how the Tutorials could go a long way to helping the uninitiated to decide. Perhaps those will be made fully available without purchase.




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Manual Download (10/1/2012 3:52:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cad908

Mo Reb,

Here is a link to the final edition rules with the examples included. The one on ADG's website for some reason does not include the graphics. It was done by a fan, and I would give credit if I knew his / her name.

http://manlig.org/wif/RaW-7mAug2004.pdf

This RAW forms the basis of the game.

Two other documents:

Rules as Coded (RAC) Some 98% of RAC is directly from RAW. It provides clarifications to the rules and the transition form a paper game to the computer one.
Players Manual (PM) Details sequence of play and all the forms used in MWIF, along with many other goodies.

are part of MWIF. The timing of their release is up to Matrix.


-Rob






Much better. Thanks. I'll give them some time and see if it 'clicks'. I'm just hoping that a game of this scale can be self taught. Seems the best way is for an experienced player to teach someone face to face, which takes time, patience and commitment. Easier done amongst familiar friends IMO.

mo reb




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Manual Download (10/1/2012 11:25:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cad908

Mo Reb,

Here is a link to the final edition rules with the examples included. The one on ADG's website for some reason does not include the graphics. It was done by a fan, and I would give credit if I knew his / her name.

http://manlig.org/wif/RaW-7mAug2004.pdf

This RAW forms the basis of the game.

Two other documents:

Rules as Coded (RAC) Some 98% of RAC is directly from RAW. It provides clarifications to the rules and the transition form a paper game to the computer one.
Players Manual (PM) Details sequence of play and all the forms used in MWIF, along with many other goodies.

are part of MWIF. The timing of their release is up to Matrix.


-Rob






Much better. Thanks. I'll give them some time and see if it 'clicks'. I'm just hoping that a game of this scale can be self taught. Seems the best way is for an experienced player to teach someone face to face, which takes time, patience and commitment. Easier done amongst familiar friends IMO.

mo reb

Communicating the rules to new players has been a concern of mine since I started working on MWIF.

I am not sure exactly what elements of my solution to this problem, if any, will be free prior to buying the game - that is up to Matrix/Slitherine to decide.

Here are the pieces I've added to MWIF for new players. Each player can pick and choose from these various sources of information, depending upon their personal preference:

1. Ten Picture and Text Tutorials, 125+ pages. Each page shows a screenshot and has text describing the screenshot. The goal for these tutorials is to familiarize the player with the basic game elements (e.g., map and units). They also cover starting a new game, the sequence of play, stacking, zones of control, and supply.

2. Ten Interactive Tutorials (almost entirely done by Rob W.). Each of these starts by loading in a saved game and instructing the player on what to examine in the given game, with accompanying commentary. Basically the player moves the mouse, clicks on keys, etc., thereby exploring the player interface. Besides examining many of the 150+ forms, these tutorials let the player move units and conduct combat for land, naval, and air units. Also covered are setting up units at the start of a game, production, and politics (e.g., declarations of war, aligning minor countries).

3. Twelve Training Videos, which essentially cover the same material as the 20 tutorials described above. The difference is that the player simply sits back and watches a video of me narrating the tutorials. They don't include all the items in the tutorials, but probably about 3/4s. In total, these run for 6+ hours.

4. Rules as Coded (RAC). This is my minimal rewrite of RAW, not so much to improve upon the clarity of the text, but instead to insert recent rule clarifications and corrections from Harry Rowland and MWIF's deviations from RAW.

5. Players Manual. This is my magnum opus on MWIF. It runs to 350+ pages with 250+ screenshots. It details the sequence of play for each of the 150+ phases/subphases/sub-subphases/digressions. It includes screenshots of all the 150+ forms, with background information from RAC (i.e., why the form exists), descriptions of the form components, and how to use the form. For example, the form for setting up units describes how to select 4 fighters from a group of 8 that are available in the setup tray and how to transfer them to the map. Likewise, the Production form describes how to select which unit types to 'buy' using your build points.




pzgndr -> RE: Manual Download (10/1/2012 11:52:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Communicating the rules to new players has been a concern of mine since I started working on MWIF.

I am not sure exactly what elements of my solution to this problem, if any, will be free prior to buying the game - that is up to Matrix/Slitherine to decide.




Will there be a demo, as there was with CWiF, with the Barbarossa and Guadalcanal scenarios? That would be helpful.

A beta demo, like now, would be sweet. [:D]




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Manual Download (10/2/2012 1:25:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


Communicating the rules to new players has been a concern of mine since I started working on MWIF.

I am not sure exactly what elements of my solution to this problem, if any, will be free prior to buying the game - that is up to Matrix/Slitherine to decide.

Here are the pieces I've added to MWIF for new players. Each player can pick and choose from these various sources of information, depending upon their personal preference:

1. Ten Picture and Text Tutorials, 125+ pages. Each page shows a screenshot and has text describing the screenshot. The goal for these tutorials is to familiarize the player with the basic game elements (e.g., map and units). They also cover starting a new game, the sequence of play, stacking, zones of control, and supply.

2. Ten Interactive Tutorials (almost entirely done by Rob W.). Each of these starts by loading in a saved game and instructing the player on what to examine in the given game, with accompanying commentary. Basically the player moves the mouse, clicks on keys, etc., thereby exploring the player interface. Besides examining many of the 150+ forms, these tutorials let the player move units and conduct combat for land, naval, and air units. Also covered are setting up units at the start of a game, production, and politics (e.g., declarations of war, aligning minor countries).

3. Twelve Training Videos, which essentially cover the same material as the 20 tutorials described above. The difference is that the player simply sits back and watches a video of me narrating the tutorials. They don't include all the items in the tutorials, but probably about 3/4s. In total, these run for 6+ hours.

4. Rules as Coded (RAC). This is my minimal rewrite of RAW, not so much to improve upon the clarity of the text, but instead to insert recent rule clarifications and corrections from Harry Rowland and MWIF's deviations from RAW.

5. Players Manual. This is my magnum opus on MWIF. It runs to 350+ pages with 250+ screenshots. It details the sequence of play for each of the 150+ phases/subphases/sub-subphases/digressions. It includes screenshots of all the 150+ forms, with background information from RAC (i.e., why the form exists), descriptions of the form components, and how to use the form. For example, the form for setting up units describes how to select 4 fighters from a group of 8 that are available in the setup tray and how to transfer them to the map. Likewise, the Production form describes how to select which unit types to 'buy' using your build points.



Fantastic and worth the price of admission alone. Count me as going from the safe side of the fence to an almost certain buy. I've been wanting to learn this system for years, but could never find the adequate learning material to help me along and certainly not any players close enough to tutor me.

And to michaelbaldur, please forgive me if my post sounded ungrateful or gruff. That wasn't my intention although after reading it again I did appear to be snarky. I appologize.

mo reb




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Manual Download (10/2/2012 3:36:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Communicating the rules to new players has been a concern of mine since I started working on MWIF.

I am not sure exactly what elements of my solution to this problem, if any, will be free prior to buying the game - that is up to Matrix/Slitherine to decide.




Will there be a demo, as there was with CWiF, with the Barbarossa and Guadalcanal scenarios? That would be helpful.

A beta demo, like now, would be sweet. [:D]

I seriously doubt it. A person would need virtually the entire game to play those two scenarios.




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Manual Download (10/5/2012 2:20:26 AM)

Are there any good fan sites that someone can recommend? Seems like some years ago there were several, but I guess they are either gone or not easily found.

What are the best?

mo reb




Extraneous -> RE: Manual Download (10/5/2012 2:33:51 AM)

French World in Flames (in english)




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Manual Download (10/5/2012 3:51:47 AM)

Thanks. Just the kind of stuff I am looking for. Do you know of any detailed AAR's especially with beginners in mind?




Extraneous -> RE: Manual Download (10/5/2012 12:27:32 PM)

MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR)




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: Manual Download (10/6/2012 4:03:03 PM)

Great. Like I was saying earlier, I've always wanted to learn WiF since the days of being in the hobby shop buying whatever ASL module it was at the time and asking the guy in front of me what he was purchasing. He said 'Wallet in Flames' and I laughed. Surely there wasn't more add-ons than ASL. My next trip there the owner was out of WiF so I picked up Advanced Third Reich although my time was committed to ASL and I never fully learned that system

I think I am going to like the more detailed units of WiF as opposed to A3R, although it would seem that the latter had a far more detailed diplomacy aspect. For instance, there were situations and country specific rules and forced actions for almost every nation in the conflict. That has always intrigued me. In hindsight, and while skimming the RaW's, I'd say that A3R and its sister game, Empire of the Rising Sun, were much more complex systems, the naval battles notwithstanding. Of course complexity doesn't always correlate to being superior.

Is this a fair assessment? What are your thoughts and how would you direct a noob to learn the system?

What makes WiF shine in you guys' opinion? What has been its secret of longevity especially compared to the obscure A3R?

mo reb




SLAAKMAN -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 5:50:21 AM)

MoReb,
quote:

What makes WiF shine in you guys' opinion? What has been its secret of longevity especially compared to the obscure A3R?

Game mechanics that integrate air, land & sea with the arms race on a global scale from 39-45. No other WWII game has achieved that so superbly. My life is complete now. [:D]




warspite1 -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 6:39:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

What makes WiF shine in you guys' opinion? What has been its secret of longevity especially compared to the obscure A3R?

mo reb
warspite1

Mo Reb I never played Advanced 3rd Reich (although did try 3rd Reich). In my opinion, 3rd Reich and WIF simply do not compare.

There are a number of reasons for WIF being simply the best game ever.

1. I believe it has the right mix of playability and complexity.
2. It is fun without being in any way a "beer and pretzels" game.
3. There are no sure-fire strategies - variable weather, variable turn-length, a degree of luck when picking reinforcements plus of course good old fashioned dice, all go together to ensure that no two games are alike.
4. For those expecting a 100% accurate OB and unit factors, then this is not the game for them. However, what WIF does is give each player an accurate feel for their country's armed forces; the benefits and the problems that go with them - e.g. Commonwealth a small, mobile army - the Commonwealth army must be used sparringly; decent aircraft with a large variety of types giving a good degree of flexibility; and a lot of ships - by no means the best quality (except HMS Warspite of course) and massively overstretched.
5. The ruleset gives the game a proper historical context, but within that framework a player is not strait-jacketed in terms of players being able to try loads of different strategies.
6. A really important element for me with any game is the "look" of the game. WIF looks fantastic (except for the Final Edition maps [:(]) but the superb MWIF map sorts that little problem out [:)]. The counters are exceptionally good - NATO symbols for the army, silhouettes for the ships, and full colour camoflagued aircraft. Playing with SIF and PIF is a must for me as these excellent counters really add to gaming experience.






Empire101 -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 6:54:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

What makes WiF shine in you guys' opinion? What has been its secret of longevity especially compared to the obscure A3R?

mo reb
warspite1

Mo Reb I never played Advanced 3rd Reich (although did try 3rd Reich). In my opinion, 3rd Reich and WIF simply do not compare.

There are a number of reasons for WIF being simply the best game ever.

1. I believe it has the right mix of playability and complexity.
2. It is fun without being in any way a "beer and pretzels" game.
3. There are no sure-fire strategies - variable weather, variable turn-length, a degree of luck when picking reinforcements plus of course good old fashioned dice, all go together to ensure that no two games are alike.
4. For those expecting a 100% accurate OB and unit factors, then this is not the game for them. However, what WIF does is give each player an accurate feel for their country's armed forces; the benefits and the problems that go with them - e.g. Commonwealth a small, mobile army - the Commonwealth army must be used sparringly; decent aircraft with a large variety of types giving a good degree of flexibility; and a lot of ships - by no means the best quality (except HMS Warspite of course) and massively overstretched.
5. The ruleset gives the game a proper historical context, but within that framework a player is not strait-jacketed in terms of players being able to try loads of different strategies.
6. A really important element for me with any game is the "look" of the game. WIF looks fantastic (except for the Final Edition maps [:(]) but the superb MWIF map sorts that little problem out [:)]. The counters are exceptionally good - NATO symbols for the army, silhouettes for the ships, and full colour camoflagued aircraft. Playing with SIF and PIF is a must for me as these excellent counters really add to gaming experience.






+1 to all that!![8D]

Except of course, I am looking forward one day to fighting out MWIF with you, with Yamato and HMS Warspite slugging it out in the Pacific!![:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN
Game mechanics that integrate air, land & sea with the arms race on a global scale from 39-45. No other WWII game has achieved that so superbly. My life is complete now.


Surely Slaak, our lives will be complete when Days of Decision is incorporated into one glorious whole!!!
( only joking Steve!!![;)] )




warspite1 -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 7:20:30 AM)

I look forward to it Empire. I can see the AAR now:

April 1942. The RN's Eastern Fleet, led by HMS Warspite, sorties into the South China Sea and quickly despatches Yamato, Hiei, Kongo and Nagato to the bottom of the sea. Yamato and Warspite fought a duel that lasted 30 minutes. Warspite's 15-inchers pummelled the hapless Japanese battleship into oblivion, while in reply, the Grand Old Lady required a new lick of paint when she returned triumphantly to Singapore after the battle.




Empire101 -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 7:27:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I look forward to it Empire. I can see the AAR now:

April 1942. The RN's Eastern Fleet, led by HMS Warspite, sorties into the South China Sea and quickly despatches Yamato, Hiei, Kongo and Nagato to the bottom of the sea. Yamato and Warspite fought a duel that lasted 30 minutes. Warspite's 15-inchers pummelled the hapless Japanese battleship into oblivion, while in reply, the Grand Old Lady required a new lick of paint when she returned triumphantly to Singapore after the battle.



Yes yes....I can picture it now.

Warspite: Suck on this Empire ( rolls 4 sixes )

Empire:- No..Noooo....NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! ( Yamato is sunk....Empire presses the eject button on his chair and is catapulted into the nearest heap of discarded 3rd Reich games )

Even now I can hear the screaming........



[image]local://upfiles/29250/ADA92ED43344451AA7CC0EEC3F5156D7.jpg[/image]




warspite1 -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 8:55:38 AM)

HMS Warspite opens the ball with a 15-inch broadside



[image]local://upfiles/28156/414E8CF9C3FE4AED92330EDF4D90E7FA.jpg[/image]




warspite1 -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 8:56:59 AM)

Prior to his ejector seat shenanigans, Empire looks on in disbelief as his Flagship disappears



[image]local://upfiles/28156/B8266A7809E749DE9A76E5609C694699.jpg[/image]




warspite1 -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 8:58:04 AM)

Warspite1, who has dressed up in his usual World In Flames attire, celebrates his victory



[image]local://upfiles/28156/32A438F9FF7D48A68C2E190C0A8E8426.jpg[/image]




Orm -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 10:21:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

What makes WiF shine in you guys' opinion? What has been its secret of longevity especially compared to the obscure A3R?

mo reb
warspite1

Mo Reb I never played Advanced 3rd Reich (although did try 3rd Reich). In my opinion, 3rd Reich and WIF simply do not compare.

There are a number of reasons for WIF being simply the best game ever.

1. I believe it has the right mix of playability and complexity.
2. It is fun without being in any way a "beer and pretzels" game.
3. There are no sure-fire strategies - variable weather, variable turn-length, a degree of luck when picking reinforcements plus of course good old fashioned dice, all go together to ensure that no two games are alike.
4. For those expecting a 100% accurate OB and unit factors, then this is not the game for them. However, what WIF does is give each player an accurate feel for their country's armed forces; the benefits and the problems that go with them - e.g. Commonwealth a small, mobile army - the Commonwealth army must be used sparringly; decent aircraft with a large variety of types giving a good degree of flexibility; and a lot of ships - by no means the best quality (except HMS Warspite of course) and massively overstretched.
5. The ruleset gives the game a proper historical context, but within that framework a player is not strait-jacketed in terms of players being able to try loads of different strategies.
6. A really important element for me with any game is the "look" of the game. WIF looks fantastic (except for the Final Edition maps [:(]) but the superb MWIF map sorts that little problem out [:)]. The counters are exceptionally good - NATO symbols for the army, silhouettes for the ships, and full colour camoflagued aircraft. Playing with SIF and PIF is a must for me as these excellent counters really add to gaming experience.




Warspite1 sums it up nicely.[:)]




Orm -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 10:40:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Empire101


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I look forward to it Empire. I can see the AAR now:

April 1942. The RN's Eastern Fleet, led by HMS Warspite, sorties into the South China Sea and quickly despatches Yamato, Hiei, Kongo and Nagato to the bottom of the sea. Yamato and Warspite fought a duel that lasted 30 minutes. Warspite's 15-inchers pummelled the hapless Japanese battleship into oblivion, while in reply, the Grand Old Lady required a new lick of paint when she returned triumphantly to Singapore after the battle.



Yes yes....I can picture it now.

Warspite: Suck on this Empire ( rolls 4 sixes )

Empire:- No..Noooo....NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! ( Yamato is sunk....Empire presses the eject button on his chair and is catapulted into the nearest heap of discarded 3rd Reich games )

Even now I can hear the screaming........



[image]local://upfiles/29250/ADA92ED43344451AA7CC0EEC3F5156D7.jpg[/image]

I remember a game where my friend, who played Japan, suddenly takes me aside from the game and declares that he wants to declare war on the Commonwealth close to one year earlier than planned. He had noticed that the bulk of the CW fleet, while relocating, had returned to base in a lightly garrisoned port within invasion range.

He quickly convinced me that we should abandon caution and go fast towards war with US since that is the result of a DOW against CW by Japan. His invasion is a success and by rolling incredible with the 10 sided die captures or sinks most of the fleet (close to half the rolls were 1's). CW lost all their carriers and Japan had 3 new carriers that could be used against the only naval threat remaining.

Sadly this caused the game to end because the Allied morale collapsed.




warspite1 -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 12:00:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Empire101


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I look forward to it Empire. I can see the AAR now:

April 1942. The RN's Eastern Fleet, led by HMS Warspite, sorties into the South China Sea and quickly despatches Yamato, Hiei, Kongo and Nagato to the bottom of the sea. Yamato and Warspite fought a duel that lasted 30 minutes. Warspite's 15-inchers pummelled the hapless Japanese battleship into oblivion, while in reply, the Grand Old Lady required a new lick of paint when she returned triumphantly to Singapore after the battle.



Yes yes....I can picture it now.

Warspite: Suck on this Empire ( rolls 4 sixes )

Empire:- No..Noooo....NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! ( Yamato is sunk....Empire presses the eject button on his chair and is catapulted into the nearest heap of discarded 3rd Reich games )

Even now I can hear the screaming........



[image]local://upfiles/29250/ADA92ED43344451AA7CC0EEC3F5156D7.jpg[/image]


His invasion is a success and by rolling incredible with the 10 sided die captures or sinks most of the fleet (close to half the rolls were 1's). CW lost all their carriers.........

warspite1

Er Orm.. either this did not really happen or the stupid game is borked. The CW would never lose a naval battle to the Japanese.




[image]local://upfiles/28156/2B0B95800CC34C7FAA02FE25A77CA8C7.jpg[/image]




Extraneous -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 1:11:20 PM)

I thought I might bring this to your attention (unless your NDA is different than mine).

quote:

Beta Tester Agreement

3. Confidential Information




You shouldn't be giving your opinions of the game (which could be considered a review). I would suggest you re-read your NDA.






warspite1 -> RE: Manual Download (10/7/2012 1:38:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I thought I might bring this to your attention (unless your NDA is different than mine).

quote:

Beta Tester Agreement

3. Confidential Information




You shouldn't be giving your opinions of the game (which could be considered a review). I would suggest you re-read your NDA.



warspite1

Have I missed something here? [&:]

What has the NDA (which I assume is the same as the one you signed) re MWIF got to do with my personal opinions of WIF? Please re-read Missouri_Rebel's question - in which he asked for peoples opinions of WIF - and my answer - in which I responded with my views on WIF. The only reference to MWIF I gave in my response was re the change to the maps. Given that screenshots of the maps have been posted by all and sundry over the last few years, I do not think I was giving away any trade secrets by simply stating that, imo, Steve's maps are better than the Final Edition maps that ADG came up with.

I have re-read my NDA as you suggested but can not see that I have done anything, even remotely, in contravention of said agreement. Can you please let me know what you believe I have done wrong?




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