Blowing Bridges (Full Version)

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azpops -> Blowing Bridges (9/19/2012 7:31:05 AM)

I'm new to this game so I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but can you blow the Nijmegen Rail and Highway bridges? I have been able to prime them for demolition, but they will never blow. Is it a given that you can't blow these bridges?

Norm




phoenix -> RE: Blowing Bridges (9/19/2012 8:08:36 AM)

Have you actually had time to prime them completely? (Full green bar). I've never managed to hold them long enough to get that far.

Not sure if there's a block on it. There wouldn't be much of a game left in 'From the Meuse to the Rhine', for example, if you could actually blow both. There's no other crossing points, and not sure Engineers have the capability to bridge that kind of gap. So I could understand if they had blocked it.

Be interested to know for sure if you can blow them or not.




azpops -> RE: Blowing Bridges (9/19/2012 9:17:50 AM)

Actually, I was able to blow the highway bridge. Never got the rail bridge primed all the way. I saved the game just before the engineer blew it and I kept reloading the game over and over until it finally blew. The final success determination must be really biased, though. As I said, it took me about 10 times before I got a success.

To prime the bridge, I had to throw practically everything I got as the German south of Arnhem in front of the Nijmegen bridge to hold back the British. They held long enough for me to prime the highway bridge, but it took a while to get the second engineer for the rail bridge and it never reached fully primed status before my engineer was blasted by British artillery and forced from the bridge.




simovitch -> RE: Blowing Bridges (9/22/2012 9:52:07 PM)

Any crossing can be blown if it is primed or even partly primed. Experienced Engineers in good order will achieve the best results.




rfrizz -> RE: Blowing Bridges (12/18/2012 7:38:11 AM)

It seems to me that it should be possible to give an order to blow a bridge rather than having your units wait until enemy units are near. That is the way it happens in the real world, right?




simovitch -> RE: Blowing Bridges (12/21/2012 4:03:50 AM)

The "deny crossing" order is an order to prime and/or blow the bridge if an enemy gets near. That is pretty accurate representation of the actual defensive delaying tactic.




davidx -> RE: Blowing Bridges + other bridge questions (6/18/2013 8:26:36 PM)

Is it possible to have a switch in the deny crossing to blow when primed? My logic is that currently, you have to wait till something threatens, then the bridge may be blown. If this threat is large, it may prevent the blowing of the bridge. Therefore, for a good chance, you must leave support. I would at time like to just blow the bridge and move on, and this would be considered an operational option, i think. The beauty of command ops AI is then it becomes dynamic and shifts strategy, maybe increasing interest in the bridge your actually interested in!!! Never the less, you should be able to blow the bridge,maybe including an Hhour, etc. Likewise, I would like to close a built pocket in "Piepers Race for the Muese" and blow the road bridges as the pocket closes under control to use it as a delay as every one heads for the exit zone, even though the games ends once enough points exit. Also, I thick, good game scenario should probably allow alternative strategies to win at some level, such as the threat in the originating thread, blowing both bridges is game over, for one side hero victory for the other end game. In real life such a tramatic outcome on the opponent is probably the desired outcome but a boring replay scenario, without some, "eureka, thats it approach". Real life versus interesting game/historical scenario. Another thread...

Also, can a primed bridge be detonated by indirect fire? Intentional or accidental. I saw a primed bridge explode right after enemy bombardment without a deny crossing order. Is that programmed in?

Lastly, are there weight limits on bridges? In "Pipers Race for the Muese" I by-pass and cross on a light bridge near Bra, rather than slug it out thru Habliemount which has a medium road bridge, I distract. The light bridge crossing typically includes the big king tigers at 68000. While it works, should it?

thanks









Brindlebane -> RE: Blowing Bridges + other bridge questions (6/18/2013 9:51:22 PM)

Bridge blowing is quite well simulated in the game i think.Having a button to press to blow bridges would surely introduce 'gamey' tactics.One of the beauties of this game,a win isn't always guarenteed.I play this game and another similar one for that very reason.It's still a pleasure to lose [:D]




jimcarravallah -> RE: Blowing Bridges + other bridge questions (6/18/2013 10:15:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brindlebane

Bridge blowing is quite well simulated in the game i think.Having a button to press to blow bridges would surely introduce 'gamey' tactics.One of the beauties of this game,a win isn't always guarenteed.I play this game and another similar one for that very reason.It's still a pleasure to lose [:D]


Given the time scale for BftB, and "bridge blowing" is an "iffy" proposition.

Where the tactics dictated constraining maneuver, the scenarios appear to mimic some pre-planning for "primed" bridges.

But, seat of the pants decisions to halt maneuver over waterways required lead times to prime and blow bridges that often aren't allowed in BftB scenario durations.

The movie, "Bridge over the River Kwai" shows some of the real dynamics associated with destroying crossing points with "boots on the ground" demolition teams.




starbuck310 -> RE: Blowing Bridges + other bridge questions (6/18/2013 10:39:52 PM)


Blowing bridges allied doctrine

On the defensive all bridges would be prepared for demolition state 1. This needs no more than attaching the detonator to the ring main to put the bridge to stage 2 armed. 5 min job tops. Once armed the bridge can only be blown on receipt of the code word. Local commanders rarely had the authority devolved down to them such decisions would be taken at Div and Corp level. The time required to prepare a bridge for demolition is really dependent on its size, length and construction. It would require a detailed recce, a demolition plan, resources and specialist equipment and trained manpower. So whilst the actual job is simulated at say a day the whole task from beginning to end might take a few days to a week or more for large bridges in the real world. So in scenarios where the units have been in their positions some time itís very likely that all the bridges would be prepared for demolition. Have a protection party and demolition firing party on site. I find the current 'chance' that it might not demolition correctly strange as experience shows that a complete failure of a bridge demolition is a very rare event. The allies also carried out preliminary demolitions so you should be able to demolition a bridge at the start of a scenario. Such demolitions also included mines and booby traps.

Not sure of the WW2 German doctrine but I doubt it would be very different.




davidx -> RE: Blowing Bridges + other bridge questions (6/18/2013 11:24:22 PM)

Not really, within the game time scale I typically can prime and have attempts to blow the bridge made often. Whether it is successful is a different story, many times it is not. I make no suggestion to change that. I merely would like a toggle, to make the attempt when primed. I think that fits well with in operational scale. I make no claim to replay history in the scenarios and will dynamically change strategy as need, but within historical plausibility.

Im current into "Piepers Race for the Muese", which was overall in essence the german northern screen, my main enemies are to the north and west. To the south there is/was the main battle group. Therefore my assumption is most enemies from the south will be in some manner depleted, thats how I played, and in (**spoiler**) essence thats how it play out in the scenario and ultimately use the river as north screen. I have never played the allied side, so I do not know any official objectives and points. I also dont know in reality if that was true, beacuse they broke ahead of everybody else, so southern approaching forces may not in reality be depleted as is my assumption. Though this does creates a successful overall strategy than wins most of the time within the game, but not always, i.e. operational success. Bad luck and the AI notices a large movement, it will reinforce locations, like wise get blocked by an infilrator and jamb up as a column expect to be blasted by artillery. I dont alawys win and small adjustment can amazingly can create large differece in AI response. Of course, that is probably why I like the game and suspect most other players like about command ops, the dynamic replay ability cause by the dynamic AI.

Though within the game, if a bridge is not to be blown, for example to simulate an over arching plan, it can easy be weight in victory point by control period and completion, therefore motivating an appropriately weight stragedy. Likewise, if the bridge should be extremely complex or massively large, make the period to prime longer than the time frame of the scenario.

Also, how can you "deny a crossing", without getting your guys caught on the wrong side. I always seem to loose some units caught on the wrong side when the bridge blows. Is there any control. I assume, that the side you put the task marker on is the side you want to be on after it blows, but I do not think it works like that.

thanks




phoenix -> RE: Blowing Bridges + other bridge questions (6/19/2013 8:15:33 AM)

There's lots on this from previous discussions, including replies from the Devs. I guess you could search for it in the old threads. I remember crying out for the switch to blow function at one point. But I think it would kill the game in many scenarios (Piper's Race, if you're Axis, being one, I think), at least as they are presently balanced. That said, it does seem unrealistic - regardless of doctrine - to not be able to pre-emptively blow bridges. It did happen, after all, during the war (regardless of strict doctrine)that bridges were dropped long before any contact, as part of a plan. Think how many bridges the allies dropped (by air) leading into D-day, for example. Myself, I'm happy with the way it's modelled now, for game play reasons. I want to be able to race Piper over Trois ponts, if possible. That wouldn't happen if you had the switch, because who is going to play Piper's Race as allies and not drop every single primed bridge (bar the northernmost, perhaps) in the first few minutes of the game. And that didn't happen historically.




phoenix -> RE: Blowing Bridges + other bridge questions (6/19/2013 8:17:45 AM)

As for guys getting caught on the wrong side (I've had that too)you can solve it by placing them on the right side to blow it. You have to fiddle with the marker to make sure they stay on the right side. They'll still blow it.




jimcarravallah -> RE: Blowing Bridges + other bridge questions (6/19/2013 1:27:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

There's lots on this from previous discussions, including replies from the Devs. I guess you could search for it in the old threads. I remember crying out for the switch to blow function at one point. But I think it would kill the game in many scenarios (Piper's Race, if you're Axis, being one, I think), at least as they are presently balanced. That said, it does seem unrealistic - regardless of doctrine - to not be able to pre-emptively blow bridges. It did happen, after all, during the war (regardless of strict doctrine)that bridges were dropped long before any contact, as part of a plan. Think how many bridges the allies dropped (by air) leading into D-day, for example. Myself, I'm happy with the way it's modelled now, for game play reasons. I want to be able to race Piper over Trois ponts, if possible. That wouldn't happen if you had the switch, because who is going to play Piper's Race as allies and not drop every single primed bridge (bar the northernmost, perhaps) in the first few minutes of the game. And that didn't happen historically.


Doctrine drives how a military force develops and procures combat weapons and equipment; defines unit organizations and command hierarchy; establishes the lines of communication among peer organizations and within the command hierarchy; defines soldier skill requirements for those organizations; recruits soldiers to meet those skills requirements; and trains soldiers / organizations on using weapons, running the organization, and developing troop readiness for any assigned (by doctrine) operations.

Within real military organizations, ignoring doctrine can lead to court martial, imprisonment, and execution depending on the harm done.

Doctrine does allow for cutting lines of communication among enemy organization and constraining a foe's ability to maneuver.

The issue with Command Ops is whether the scenario designer's plan implemented at the time the battle included preparations for extreme denial of maneuver operations before enemy contact (which leads to the scenario designer designating a number of bridges primed for destruction on short notice and / or showing normal crossings closed to use) or requires the use the deny crossing maneuver to accomplish the mission within the scenario timeframe.

Much like the issue of bombardment effects on armored formations, there may be some room to look into modelling bombardment or even air strikes as a means to take out bridges on an ad hoc basis. My guess is even if bombardment / air strikes are options for destroying bridges, the probability of hitting a structure of a specific design effectively enough to destroy it as a minimum would take as much game time as defined to prime those same structures with appropriate deny crossing resources. Does save the commander from having to use ground resources to prime a bridge, but doesn't implement the destruction of the crossing any more quickly in the long run.

But given the relative importance of other enhancements already planned for the game engine to model expanded combat operations or force confrontations (minefields, water borne combat maneuver, Russian operational doctrine, etc.), I'd say the priority for even more opportunities to blow bridges on command is low.





davidx -> RE: Blowing Bridges + other bridge questions (6/26/2013 5:58:35 PM)

The western allied forces operationally had much more at stake, getting to Germany before the Eastern Allied forces did. So for a bridge to be blown, it must be serious situation, because the bridge works both ways. Likewise, in "Piepers Race for the Meuse", scenario, the bridge at Trios Ponts can be blown by the allies and is blown by the allies, depending. Does the scenario end? You can restart with a new strategy variation, restart till the random number generator works in your favor for same strategy, or continue playing and reroute. Its a game, the choice is the players. In reality, I believe the bridge at Hablemont is what stopped the real thrust of Piepers, but in a game are we obligated to repeat history. It fun to do both in a war game.

Though ultimately, a bridge blow option, fits well into much larger scenarios particularly large timer periods in my opinion without a huge code change. Simply a "blow when primed" switch in the deny crossing command.

regards,

david




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