Rumanian Surrender (Full Version)

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Marquo -> Rumanian Surrender (9/16/2012 3:26:20 PM)

9/2/1943; Turn 116. The Soviets broke through the Roumanian line in west Ukraine and stepped over the border; the town of Vaslui at 66, 106 was coverted and subsequently Roumania surrendered.

Rule 19.14.1 = Rumania automatically surrenders if Bucharest is Soviet controlled. There is a chance that Rumania will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, a Rumanian city or town that is located in the area where the Y coordinate of the hex is equal to or greater than 105 is Soviet controlled. With the exception of much of the Northeastern "bulge" to the east of Hungary, this area includes most of Rumania. If this condition is met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST) value is calculated equal to 2 plus 1 for each German Division in Bucharest plus 2 additional points for each Division that is an Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater than 9. Once the ST is determined, if Die (10)>ST, then Rumania surrenders.

Is this a bit harsh? The Axis must garisson Budapest to lower the odds of surrender? Why not just count the number of German units in Roumania as a token of support to lower the odds of surrender? This is a game killer if the entire south flank can crumble so quickly.




Joel Billings -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/16/2012 6:09:14 PM)

It can, and it did historically, although a year later than in your game. Take a look at how 6th Army was destroyed again in 1944.




Marquo -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/16/2012 7:07:46 PM)

Yeah, there is history and there is the game....

[:)]




turtlefang -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/17/2012 1:12:19 AM)

I maybe off base as I'm not a Romanian political WW2 expert, but everything I've read indicates that the Romanian's were more opportunitic and allies of convience rather than die in the wool anti-Soviets to the core.

I could easily see them pulling out if they thought the war was going badly and Hitler was going to be on the losing end to prevent as much Soviet retributuion as possible. And if they were losing territory in 43, yes, they might change sides or surrender. Because that would indicate that the war was going badly.

A game's problem is always in chosing the trigger - loss of capital, loss of xx towns or territory, random chance after xx loss. I prefer the random chance after xx loss just due to the uncertainity factor. And when you have an uncertainity factor, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose base on that factor. Sounds like you got unlucky here - but that happens sometimes.

And I feel for you. Its a tough break.

But I would also argue that having the Rumanians activate on turn 1 is even less historically accurate - they simply were not either politically OR logistically prepare to act at that time. Yet that's not even random with the Lvov opening. Given that the first turn represents 3.5 days, the Germans have use some of that to create the opening AND then the Rumanian's get a full turn? Not particularly realistic.

BTW, not recommending a change on anything. Just pointing it - things just swing both ways at different times.




map66 -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/17/2012 5:55:35 PM)

I've been playing a GC '44 and experienced Rumanian surrender in all its disastrous implications... In general, I think the rules for it are fairly decent--- the actual historical surrender came very quickly just as it does in the game--- but there are a few problems. The first is that all rails in Rumania on hexes that flip convert automatically to fully repaired Soviet rail. I imagine they should instead be damaged. Second, as happened to me (and I only blame myself for not studying the surrender rules more), the flipping of Rumania can cause the towns in NW Rumania that start a Hungarian surrender check to switch sides, and Hungary can surrender immediately on the same turn as Rumania. Actually, I'm not entirely sure how the Hungarian surrender happened, as I had an SS and normal division in Budapest which would seem to guarantee me passing every surrender check, but I'm probably missing something... I do think that probably the Hungarian surrender locations need to default to Axis control when Rumania surrenders to prevent this kind of chain reaction, or at the very least there needs to be a time delay between Rumanian and Hungarian surrender.

That said, now having experienced the surrender process once, I've come to the conclusion that Germany can't risk fighting in Rumania until AFTER the Rumanians surrender, as the risk is just too great that something disastrous will happen, nor can one ever have enough units in Bucharest to negate the surrender check. But the surrender can be properly managed--- largely one would need to create a ZOC screen of German units from the Hungarian border south along the rail line through Budapest and to the Bulgarian border, as well as make sure all Rumanian units are adjacent to German ones so that they don't switch sides. I think with that strategy, one can then safely withdraw from the exposed parts of Rumania, keep Hungary in the war, and utilize the rough terrain in Transylvania for a fairly decent southern anchor to one's front. Of course, I'm not sure if it really makes sense to have a disastrous event like the Rumanian surrender be able to be "managed" in game terms, but so it goes...




AFV -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/18/2012 5:34:03 AM)

I did not know that having German units next to Romanian ones will keep them from switching sides. What do they do, just disband if they are next to a German unit?




Baelfiin -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/18/2012 5:47:15 AM)

It can be disastrous to get a surrender at just the wrong moment. If german and rumanian units are stacked together whoever has the least amount of CV is disbanded. So make sure you are not like me and leave your panzer army HQ stacked with a rumainian fort unit .. it will be dead forever hehe. Its really not that bad fighting in there, you just have to make sure that you have some sort of combat unit in each of the towns so they dont flip ( i like sec rgts) and your rumainain troops are someplace where they wont do much harm, or better yet when the time gets close, disband them so they cant hurt you.




Savanniperkele -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/18/2012 11:38:16 AM)

The suggestion of disbanding the Rumanian troops is on the border of gamey and very gamey when playing another human, I think.

I am currently crossing the Rumanian border in my game as the player in charge of STAVKA (hehee), so please do suggest something more gentlemanlike :)

But does something happen to Rumanian troops next to German ones or just to the troops in same stacks? I am a bit confused here?





Baelfiin -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/18/2012 2:57:49 PM)

As far as I know troops have to be stacked and whoever has the most CV wins. You want to have the cities and towns occupied so they dont flip over taking their adjacent hexes with them. Gamey-ness in a wargame? You cant really do anything to stop the surrender, or even have a decent chance of slowing it down, so the german player should have some options to mitigate the damage. Disbanding fort units behind the lines doesnt seem like it is abusive.




Savanniperkele -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/18/2012 3:01:47 PM)

Ok.

I have not really looked into this but thought that you wrote about all of the Rumanian army and not just some fortified zones which are not relevant.




LiquidSky -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/20/2012 7:54:15 AM)



I can think of several more gamey things to do with the Rumanian army then disband it. How about just leaving it in the front to 'stop' the Russians from moving forward towards the border?




jaw -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/20/2012 12:57:08 PM)

With all the surrender rules, not just the Rumanian ones, the Axis player knows his Allies are going to surrender and under what conditions, information his historical counterpart never had. Sorry but I have no sympathy for Axis players complaining about surrender rules.




Marquo -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/23/2012 1:54:39 PM)

As the Soviet player who started the thread, I find it curious that all of Rumanian resistance dissolved the first week after a 1 - 2 hex penetration into Rumania. I am unaware of the historical basis for requiring whole German divisions including ss units to be garrisoned in Budapest to mitigate the chances for Rumania surrender - why is that?




el hefe -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/23/2012 2:41:16 PM)

Bottom line up front. German garrison divisions in capitols prevent political coups.


The Germans failed to recognize that the Rumanians were about to flip and that a coup was imminent around Aug 1944. The Germans redirected the 4th SS Panzergrenadier Division from Greece to Bucharest but never made it in time. They also sent elements of the Brandenburg Parachute Regiment and local units of a Flak Division to try and prevent the coup in Bucharest but it was too little, too late. When the Soviets made their big push in aug 1944, the Rumanians completely collapsed resulted in the destruction of the German 6th Army (again) and the near destruction of the German 8th Army. When Hungary showed signs of flipping, they reacted immediately in Budapest and secured their commitment to the end of the war.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

As the Soviet player who started the thread, I find it curious that all of Rumanian resistance dissolved the first week after a 1 - 2 hex penetration into Rumania. I am unaware of the historical basis for requiring whole German divisions including ss units to be garrisoned in Budapest to mitigate the chances for Rumania surrender - why is that?





Baelfiin -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/23/2012 7:47:44 PM)

One thing to note about preventing Rumainian surrender: There are two Rumanian HQs (Rumainian High Command and Rumainian Air Command) frozen in Bucharest so you can only get a max of one unit in to effect the surrender die roll. Chances are pretty slim to avoid the surrender no matter what you do, so for playing the game its probably better just to plan for it when the time comes and make sure you don't leave yourself exposed.




IdahoNYer -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/24/2012 12:29:28 AM)

quote:

One thing to note about preventing Rumainian surrender: There are two Rumanian HQs (Rumainian High Command and Rumainian Air Command) frozen in Bucharest so you can only get a max of one unit in to effect the surrender die roll. Chances are pretty slim to avoid the surrender no matter what you do, so for playing the game its probably better just to plan for it when the time comes and make sure you don't leave yourself exposed.


you can relocate the air command HQ




Baelfiin -> RE: Rumanian Surrender (9/24/2012 4:40:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

quote:

One thing to note about preventing Rumainian surrender: There are two Rumanian HQs (Rumainian High Command and Rumainian Air Command) frozen in Bucharest so you can only get a max of one unit in to effect the surrender die roll. Chances are pretty slim to avoid the surrender no matter what you do, so for playing the game its probably better just to plan for it when the time comes and make sure you don't leave yourself exposed.


you can relocate the air command HQ

Nice one 8) Never even occurred to me to use relocate unit.

So you can fit 2 divisions and have a roughly 50-50 every turn. Not as bad as with one division for sure, but having been on the wrong side of a rumainian surrender, 50/50 is not something I would bank on. Thankfully the Hungarians are much easier to hang onto especially if you dont get completely out of whack in a rumainian debacle.





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