Naval Guard Units (IJN) (Full Version)

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michaelm -> Naval Guard Units (IJN) (9/15/2012 8:01:10 AM)

There are several units (such as 15th Nav Gsn from scenario #2) found in the game.

I am curious what the correct name of these units are.
The suffix calls them "Naval Garrison Unit" in the editor, but in the AE code, the suffix is called "Naval Guard Unit".

I realize that 'Guard' and 'Garrison' are really doing the same thing, but I can't seem to find a definite reference to such unit names.




treespider -> RE: Naval Guard Units (IJN) (9/15/2012 2:57:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

There are several units (such as 15th Nav Gsn from scenario #2) found in the game.

I am curious what the correct name of these units are.
The suffix calls them "Naval Garrison Unit" in the editor, but in the AE code, the suffix is called "Naval Guard Unit".

I realize that 'Guard' and 'Garrison' are really doing the same thing, but I can't seem to find a definite reference to such unit names.



W. Victor Madej refers to them as Guard Forces (Keibitai) in Japanese Armed Forces Order of Battle Volume II.

Gary Nila & Robert A Rolfe references Guard Forces in their Osprey Publishing book about Japanese SNLFs.

Gordon Rottman references Guard Forces in his Osprey book about Japanese Pacific island Defenses.




michaelm -> RE: Naval Guard Units (IJN) (9/15/2012 3:11:25 PM)

Thanks




US87891 -> RE: Naval Guard Units (IJN) (9/15/2012 6:36:34 PM)

Niehorster calls them “naval guard’ units, but as Treespider says, the Japanese is Keibitai. It doesn’t translate well, so they can be guard, or garrison, or assault, or simply “units”. The thing is not necessarily defined by the noun.

Some SNLFs were redesignated as Keibitai. Some Keibitai were incorporated into later war SNLFs. They were the same thing; they were IJN ground defense troops that defended IJN facilities like Base Forces or some Island the IJN was defending. They were the ground defense element of the IJN structural deployment.

Were they gnarly? No. Some of the early ones were IJA trained. They were ok, but they clearly weren’t jack-all as so-called “elites”. They were Japanese, so they did Japanese things in a Japanese way, but that don’t make them super, or even nominal.

With all due apologies to the JFBs, the later war SNLF was a bunch of conscripts that got some guns and who were tasked to die for the Emperor. They were not, and cannot ever be conceived as some sort of elite troops. If you want to put it into Western terms, these guys were gobs with guns that were taught to shoot, and that’s about it.

Think I know where you might be coming from. Please talk to me by email before you go there.




witpqs -> RE: Naval Guard Units (IJN) (9/15/2012 8:43:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891

Niehorster calls them “naval guard’ units, but as Treespider says, the Japanese is Keibitai. It doesn’t translate well, so they can be guard, or garrison, or assault, or simply “units”. The thing is not necessarily defined by the noun.

Some SNLFs were redesignated as Keibitai. Some Keibitai were incorporated into later war SNLFs. They were the same thing; they were IJN ground defense troops that defended IJN facilities like Base Forces or some Island the IJN was defending. They were the ground defense element of the IJN structural deployment.

Were they gnarly? No. Some of the early ones were IJA trained. They were ok, but they clearly weren’t jack-all as so-called “elites”. They were Japanese, so they did Japanese things in a Japanese way, but that don’t make them super, or even nominal.

With all due apologies to the JFBs, the later war SNLF was a bunch of conscripts that got some guns and who were tasked to die for the Emperor. They were not, and cannot ever be conceived as some sort of elite troops. If you want to put it into Western terms, these guys were gobs with guns that were taught to shoot, and that’s about it.

Think I know where you might be coming from. Please talk to me by email before you go there.


This is mostly an aside, keying in on part of what you wrote. When we think of the (obviously) English language term SNLF, should we be thinking of "Special Naval Landing Force" or "Special Naval Land Force"?




Kereguelen -> RE: Naval Guard Units (IJN) (9/15/2012 10:11:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891

Niehorster calls them “naval guard’ units, but as Treespider says, the Japanese is Keibitai. It doesn’t translate well, so they can be guard, or garrison, or assault, or simply “units”. The thing is not necessarily defined by the noun.

Some SNLFs were redesignated as Keibitai. Some Keibitai were incorporated into later war SNLFs. They were the same thing; they were IJN ground defense troops that defended IJN facilities like Base Forces or some Island the IJN was defending. They were the ground defense element of the IJN structural deployment.

Were they gnarly? No. Some of the early ones were IJA trained. They were ok, but they clearly weren’t jack-all as so-called “elites”. They were Japanese, so they did Japanese things in a Japanese way, but that don’t make them super, or even nominal.

With all due apologies to the JFBs, the later war SNLF was a bunch of conscripts that got some guns and who were tasked to die for the Emperor. They were not, and cannot ever be conceived as some sort of elite troops. If you want to put it into Western terms, these guys were gobs with guns that were taught to shoot, and that’s about it.

Think I know where you might be coming from. Please talk to me by email before you go there.


This is mostly an aside, keying in on part of what you wrote. When we think of the (obviously) English language term SNLF, should we be thinking of "Special Naval Landing Force" or "Special Naval Land Force"?


The SNLF were landing forces. The term "special" is somewhat misleading, however. It just means that they were temporary formations.




Dili -> RE: Naval Guard Units (IJN) (9/16/2012 3:08:06 AM)

I think i already posted this but maybe is not bad to repeat it in this thread:

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/japanesenavalgroundforces.htm

http://www.oocities.org/dutcheastindies/japan_garrison.html




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