How to stop Germany as USSR? (Full Version)

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BootyJoe -> How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/1/2012 11:42:05 PM)

How on earth can I stop - not to talk about going on the offensive - Germany as USSR? On Normal difficulty they simply walk over me. It is April 1942 and Germany is running amok with 9 Panzer units - 4 of them armies. They one or two shot anything I throw in their way. I noticed that the negative efficency penalty is still effective at -25 in April 1942 - that is just ridicoulus. Said penalty is -45 in winter 1941 making any historical counteroffensive impossible. The -25 in fact continues way into 1943! I enjoyed playing the Axis but playing USSR is just frustrating. Some serious balancing needs to be done patchwise.




AZ Gung Ho -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 4:06:29 AM)

I've tried several strategies and haven't found anything that even comes close to working. IMHO they are either going to have to de-power the Germans or give the Russians more units that are more powerful - some built in fortresses would help as well.




doomtrader -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 9:04:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BootyJoe

How on earth can I stop - not to talk about going on the offensive - Germany as USSR? On Normal difficulty they simply walk over me. It is April 1942 and Germany is running amok with 9 Panzer units - 4 of them armies. They one or two shot anything I throw in their way. I noticed that the negative efficency penalty is still effective at -25 in April 1942 - that is just ridicoulus. Said penalty is -45 in winter 1941 making any historical counteroffensive impossible. The -25 in fact continues way into 1943! I enjoyed playing the Axis but playing USSR is just frustrating. Some serious balancing needs to be done patchwise.


If I remember correctly the Germans were kicking Soviet asses till middle of 1943. The only thing that stopped the Germans to reach Ural were the masses of Soviet Infantry sent division after division.




BootyJoe -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 9:18:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AZ Gung Ho

I've tried several strategies and haven't found anything that even comes close to working. IMHO they are either going to have to de-power the Germans or give the Russians more units that are more powerful - some built in fortresses would help as well.


Oh at least I am not just a bad player then - good news. I have been playing wargames since the 1980s (first game AH's Afrika Korps). IMHO a first step would be to get rid of that hefty "surprise" penalty for the USSR listed as "Event" under efficiency mods. Perhaps I can mod that myself? A second step would be to give the Germans a hefty first winter penalty. These two measures can be argued for on basis of historical accuracy as well as play balance. I totally agree on the forts issue - several Russian cities should have some forts (Leningrad and Moscow are two examples). Also it would be nice if your were able to purchase forts.




doomtrader -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 9:21:21 AM)

The winter penalty is already implemented within the game.

Those cities were not really too well fortified.
Most of the fortifications where ad hoc dirt shelters. Every unit when stands in one place gets an entrenched bonus.




doomtrader -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 9:22:14 AM)

And BTW, all those things can be modded of course.




BootyJoe -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 9:29:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
If I remember correctly the Germans were kicking Soviet asses till middle of 1943. The only thing that stopped the Germans to reach Ural were the masses of Soviet Infantry sent division after division.


True but the problem is that that is not reflected in the game. I have spammed inf but that is hardly slowing the Germans down, much less stopping them. On this scale there is not all that much territory you can afford to loose. It must be possible for the Soviets to construct a line that holds. I can't see how that can be done right now. I am surprised how much I like this little gem of a game - it gets to you! Perhaps I should get Time of Fury as well.




BootyJoe -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 9:30:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

And BTW, all those things can be modded of course.


How? Are there any instructions for such modding?




BootyJoe -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 9:40:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

The winter penalty is already implemented within the game.


It is? Oh I never noticed. How? As an eff modifier listed as events? How much is the penalty? When does it kick in? When does it end?

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
Those cities were not really too well fortified.


The Germans sieged Leningrad for three years failing to occupy it. The way in game to represent the challenge of taking Leningrad would be to give the city some forts I think.





doomtrader -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 12:10:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BootyJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

And BTW, all those things can be modded of course.


How? Are there any instructions for such modding?



Time of Fury's modding subforum is the best place to lurk for the infos:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1025




doomtrader -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/2/2012 12:13:21 PM)

quote:

It is? Oh I never noticed. How? As an eff modifier listed as events? How much is the penalty? When does it kick in? When does it end?


There is a winter modifier implemented in the game, and it affects all units acting in the winter weather.
So it's starts accordingly to the weather.




ricodc -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/5/2012 2:19:49 PM)

ive tried as allies and russians even russian ai keeps losing. Have tried altering the diff, but dosent seem to make any diffrence to game play.




AZ Gung Ho -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/5/2012 5:05:29 PM)

Doomtrader,

I was not aware of the built in weather effects and digging in, that's fine but doesn't solve the problem. I have play the 1941 scenario four times, I have played quickly and have made mistakes as the German, and EVERY TIME by the end of 1941 the Germans have held Leningrad, Moscow, Vorenzh (or however you spell it), and Rostov.

Clearly there is a balance problem here that needs to be addressed one way or another. Perhaps giving the Russians a lot more units would help, but they are going to have to be much more powerful than most of the forces the Russians currently have it they are going to be able to even slow down what I call the "Super Panzers."

That's another problem with the game, when in late '44 and '45 the Germans are still capable of building several Panzer units with the strength in the 40's, somethings not quite right here!

Love the game and hope it help make it better!




doomtrader -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/5/2012 6:33:14 PM)

AZ Gung Ho, did you tried to play on different difficulty levels?
Check this thread:
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=205&t=37097




CLEVELAND -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/5/2012 6:47:31 PM)

I just started my first ever game as Germany (Quick game, all the default settings, 1939 scenario) and the USSR has laid waste to the Wehrmacht. Granted, my AI allies are worthless so I'm essentially playing alone and I've made some bad mistakes but the USSR is unstoppable in my game.

It bears repeating that I'm a complete newb here.

Also, in October 1941 all of my German units' combat strength went down quite a bit. Is this a winter effect?




usmcE4 -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/5/2012 10:12:34 PM)

I can't believe the Germans are losing. Everything I've read and the few times I've tried USSR has no chance. Be sure to build your Panzers to level 3 armies and crush everything. Don't bother with air forces, they are not crucial. Still a great game. Working on a method for Soviets to survive.




CLEVELAND -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/6/2012 12:18:41 AM)

Believe it! [:)]

Here were my mistakes:

1. I committed too many units to crush Yugoslavia and Greece and had to postpone Barbarossa till July '41.
2. Even then I was still moving units into position while the offensive took place (I didn't have the full strength of the German Army arrayed against the USSR)
3. There were no Russian units on the border so I moved into the Soviet Union over confident and without knowledge of their positions (I kept one fighter unit in France to "simulate" the Battle of Britain)
4. Soviet AI counterattacked and dropped a parachute corps into an undefended Warsaw which cutoff the rail line.
5. I built a Panzer Armee, strength of 30, which went down to 18 in October and was hit by several different Tank Armies and was lost.
6. Soviets attacked into AI controlled Romania and well the AI lost the border war.

In other words, I blame the Romanians. [;)]




CLEVELAND -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/6/2012 12:23:54 AM)

Still getting used to the game. The rules etc.




papajack -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/6/2012 2:45:01 AM)

Play with very hard difficulty (-50%pp). the German will struggle against USSR




panzers -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/6/2012 9:16:22 PM)

I am playing as the Germans in the 1939 scenario.
What I have seen is that after about three turns in Barbarossa the Soviets show up with about 15 divisions and 8 tanks all in one turn. I don't have the strength to beat that. I have only 5 panzer armies and 7 mechs as well as the starting infantry. I am obviously doing something wrong because I can't compete with that.
I am playing the Germans on very easy and the Russians as normal.
What am I doing wrong that everyone seems to be having a relatively easy time with the Germans?
As a side note, my Panzers are all at level 3.




Misconduct -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/6/2012 11:24:48 PM)

I've beaten both Germany and USSR. As the Germans you have to play defensively, the AI is not to bright as shortly after you declare war or russia declares war on you - you have to instantly block off poland all the way south.

As the Russians I pulled most my units back, Left Finland alone - and started a massive build up around Stalingrad and Moscow, worked fine.

as far against a REAL player it will certainly be interesting.




papajack -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/7/2012 12:25:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

I am playing as the Germans in the 1939 scenario.
What I have seen is that after about three turns in Barbarossa the Soviets show up with about 15 divisions and 8 tanks all in one turn. I don't have the strength to beat that. I have only 5 panzer armies and 7 mechs as well as the starting infantry. I am obviously doing something wrong because I can't compete with that.
I am playing the Germans on very easy and the Russians as normal.
What am I doing wrong that everyone seems to be having a relatively easy time with the Germans?
As a side note, my Panzers are all at level 3.


Dont forget about assigning Commanders

You cant just blast your way through with USSR , they are not Polish,dont push your panzers too far deep ,

Dont be fool by the initial easy breakthrough , I made that fatal mistake during my first game , underestimate them and get slaughter by their counter attack:}




Misconduct -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/7/2012 12:40:23 AM)

Hold your panzers up in poland, let the russians attack, they pretty much throw everything except for units occupying towns into the fight.

I usually target the Tanks so they don't upgrade, once you destroy 4-5 of them then they are usually easy to simply by pass and get them later.




Texican -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/7/2012 2:46:13 AM)

Soviets should be good defenders in any game. When I was younger, I met a guy who was German and claimed to be the grandson or grand-nephew or something of Von Manteuffel. He said Manteuffel told him of the Russians and said if you didn't attack within 48 hours, you might as well forget it. (Referring, I assume, to the abilities of the Soviets to effectively and quickly dig in).

Will have to give the game a try and see how this is represented and if the claims of the Germans being too strong are reasonable ones.




AZ Gung Ho -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/7/2012 4:46:26 PM)

Hey Misconduct,

I tried your approach as the Russian in the 1941 campaign. I held Moscow and Leningrad in 41, early in 42 lost Leningrad and Moscow went in mid summer, Stalingrad fell late in the year and by July of 43 the Germans held all of Russia and I had three units left not far from Baku, when Russia surrendered.

You plan worked better, but I still say the Germans are too powerful or the Russians to weak - oh and the AI was on Normal.




Menschenfresser -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/7/2012 7:33:44 PM)

Sorry guys...from my limited experience in this game, the Soviets are hopeless. Too hopeless. Not even that...they might as well surrender from the outset.

I've now played them several times and nothing lasts more than a turn against the German panzer units. One hit kills. I've tried inf corps spamming. Upgrades. Armor. Commanders. Nothing seems to work. The last game I purchased only Inf Corps. Not 1 PP spent on anything else. I lasted until Spring '42 when they took Leningrad, Moscow & Stalingrad on the same turn and I had nothing left on the map expect one fighter unit. It wasn't that they pushed me back, or executed an excellent breakthrough. No, it's just one hit and dead. One hit and dead. Until there's nothing left and they walk into my major cities.

Maybe it's just me, but I know from playing other WWII strategic level games that if the East Front doesn't play correctly, the simulation doesn't work. The majority of the German cause is decided in the east and therefore it needs to be spot on.

Furthermore, playing such a defense where one has no chance to retreat, counterattack, etc is just not fun. I felt like I was playing a game of Arkanoid and I was the blocks.

Is my experience abnormal?

I might add I've only tried it on normal. No changes to the stock set up.




AZ Gung Ho -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/7/2012 8:30:10 PM)

Okay - tried again this time with the AI set on Easy for Germany and her allies.

Russia surrendered in February of '43 this time.

There is no stopping the Super Panzer Destroyers at this point. By games end there were at least 7 Super Panzer Destroyer Armies, a couple of Mech Armies and lots of others.

If this isn't addressed and soon it renders the game unplayable against the AI at least, and I would imagine the same for head to head play as well.




CLEVELAND -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/7/2012 9:09:37 PM)

Played the Russians in the '41 game last night as well. Got killed. They only get around 200 PP per turn so building tank armies that can take on the Germans is out of the question. When the Americans entered i thought they'd get a boost due to Lend Lease but nothing, I dunno is Lend Lease even in the game?

I then fired up the '40 scenario thinking I might start building up the Soviet army a little before Barbarossa. USSR starts out with 60PP a turn and every research level at one. I didn't bother playing it.




doomtrader -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/7/2012 9:12:49 PM)

OK, I can still make Soviets a little bit stronger in 1.04, but OTOH, could you please gove me some feedback about playing against Easy AI as USSR?




Menschenfresser -> RE: How to stop Germany as USSR? (9/7/2012 9:17:38 PM)

I'm looking at the data files, hoping to see something to change in order to reduce German invincibility. Still looking.

I see where starting tech levels can be reduced. As well as war economy.

I thought to change mud/winter effects, but those are already (if I understand the numbers) what I guess they should be.

Maybe someone can point me in the right direction. Essentially reduce German unit strength. Let's start with that.

EDIT: Might also want to check the Winter War victory conditions for the Soviets. Seems I can get a victor by just moving a Soviet army on the first turn of the war near Helsinki. No Finnish units opposing, and get a victory without combat. Perhaps that's the AI moving units away from the Leningrad front. Dunno.




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