RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (Full Version)

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terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/10/2012 2:04:22 PM)

Comparison with the previous game

Hmm, seems I am 1 turn ahead in this one in terms of territory taken, somewhat ahead in units destroyed as well, but the placement of my units makes more sense this time around.
So, all in all I am doing a little bit better this time around, but I am still too slow on the advance, epesially in the north. Guess I'll keep attacking that AI to learn some more.


Terje




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/11/2012 8:42:58 AM)

Turn 11

Overall
We continue to do quite good (for me that is) in the south, while we crawl ahead in the north. I am now counting VP hexes in the south to see if it is possible to "skip" Leningrad/Moscow and drive hard and quick in the south instead, but probably just a dream. Also HAVE to stop looking at CVs when considering if I want a hasty or deliberate attack. WAY too many 8:1+ attacks that end up with a held result this turn...
99 attacks resulted in 21 helds (far too many), 70 retreats, 7 routs and 1 surrender.

USSR units in pockets at the start of the turn
1.

USSR units in pockets at the end of the turn
14 (including 5 Cav Divs [&o]).

Losses
USSR : 78.000 troops, 1.676 guns, 423 AFVs, 355 AC.
Axis : 49.000 troops, 521 guns, 214 AFVs, 183 AC.

USSR units destroyed
1 tank division, 2 PVO AA regiments.

German pools
Manpower : 1.007
Vehicles : 158.507
Armaments : 95.491
Hiwi : 87.071




[image]local://upfiles/11504/8301C51589614A499AFFABB9114FB13A.jpg[/image]




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/11/2012 8:43:22 AM)

Centre



[image]local://upfiles/11504/BEAFF626335346B6A50F8895BDECC8BD.jpg[/image]




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/11/2012 8:43:49 AM)

North



[image]local://upfiles/11504/1552C0FAF80E4663B79F8DCC62856917.jpg[/image]




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/11/2012 8:46:02 AM)

Production

Anything that seems "wrong" to more experienced players (hope not...)?



[image]local://upfiles/11504/94F89E37E8F54213857674A68FEEA8EF.jpg[/image]




bigbaba -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/11/2012 11:17:08 AM)

yes. the little territory&POW's you captured.

one important advice for the blizzard:

just run.[:D]

seriously:

don't let him get too many attacks and guards divisions. walk away and keep your unit's moral while preventing him to get easy "moral building" victories. retreat until end of january 2-3 hexes per turn. you must keep your men&moral together when you want to have a chance in 42.

try to grind a little bit when you can not form more pockets. just attack at the whole front (no hasty attacks) and try to cause his units to rout and lose men&moral.

good luck meatball.[;)]

edit:

against gids (i play OKH) i had a average summer 41. then i tried to attack in 42 and got few pockets but the costs were too high. in summer 42 i decided to go into defensive modus and now we are at the end of 43 and loses are 3.000.000 to 11.000.000 and i am still east ofleningrad kiev and smolensk.

what i tried to say:

you must not burn out your troops in 42. if you get the feeling that attacking is too expensive just dig. dig multiple lines and use all natural defensive CV boost (woods, rivers...). then let him come with most of your tanks in reserve modus and let him bleed. you will have more then enough AP in 42 to get a good army organization (better CV) and enough fort units.

too many german players try everything to stay in the offense and lose their army in 42-43 in fight against high soviet defensive CV.




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 11:23:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

1. yes. the little territory&POW's you captured.

2. one important advice for the blizzard:

just run.[:D]

seriously:

don't let him get too many attacks and guards divisions. walk away and keep your unit's moral while preventing him to get easy "moral building" victories. retreat until end of january 2-3 hexes per turn. you must keep your men&moral together when you want to have a chance in 42.

3. try to grind a little bit when you can not form more pockets. just attack at the whole front (no hasty attacks) and try to cause his units to rout and lose men&moral.

good luck meatball.[;)]

edit:

against gids (i play OKH) i had a average summer 41. then i tried to attack in 42 and got few pockets but the costs were too high. in summer 42 i decided to go into defensive modus and now we are at the end of 43 and loses are 3.000.000 to 11.000.000 and i am still east ofleningrad kiev and smolensk.

what i tried to say:

4. you must not burn out your troops in 42. if you get the feeling that attacking is too expensive just dig. dig multiple lines and use all natural defensive CV boost (woods, rivers...). then let him come with most of your tanks in reserve modus and let him bleed. you will have more then enough AP in 42 to get a good army organization (better CV) and enough fort units.

too many german players try everything to stay in the offense and lose their army in 42-43 in fight against high soviet defensive CV.


1. That goes without saying, but ment more in terms of what has been produced [;)]
2. Aye, will try not to lose 20 divs this time around.
3. Yup, although it depends upon how well I perform #2
4. Agreed.

Terje




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 12:41:44 PM)

Turn 12

Overall
Starting to loose heart really.
The going in the north is so slow that it is ridiculus, and the south does not really hold the manpower centres that will drastically alter the USSR manpower situation. The USSR OOB is now at 4.7M and rising, add the fact that mud and that accursed blizzard is coming as well, it does not matter that the south is completely open. I fear this one too will end in -44 [:(]
And right now the CV display is starting to make me hate this game, sorry but when I see a COMBAT VALUE ratio of 11 : 1, I expect a walk in the park, not 4 successive attacks to move the defender.

Oh well, rant off.
Slow movement in the North and Centre, killing off a pocket in the south and forming another one around Zaporozhye, as well as starting to crack the gates to the Crimea.
Our 100 attacks result in 24 helds, 57 retreats, 7 routs, 1 shatter and 11 surrenders.

USSR units in pockets at the start of the turn
14.

USSR units in pockets at the end of the turn
17.

Losses
USSR : 357.000 troops, 3.314 guns, 740 AFVs, 481 AC.
Axis : 57.000 troops, 640 guns, 199 AFVs, 129 AC.

USSR units destroyed
1 motorized division, 8 rifle divisions, 3 cavalry divisions, 1 AT artillery brigade, 1 PVO AA regiment, 1 fortified zone.

German pools
Manpower : 1.076 (+69)
Vehicles : 162.191 (+3.684)
Armaments : 83.238 (-12.253)
Hiwi : 91.126 (+4.055)




[image]local://upfiles/11504/E3D5C87C93124CB59E04D09AAD32EB5C.jpg[/image]




Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 1:31:11 PM)

Hi Terje,

I know its not really inline with ur personallity if i read u right. Non the less. This will be a replay of the last game. If this is a game where u should do better learning from past mistakes. Well, i think as u strongly hint at, thats not going to happen. So why continue. U might consider, here is the part where i expect "objections", to restart. U will hafta practice ur first turns tho. Problem is u really lose 1-2 turn on turn 1 and so on. U simply very early on gets way behind the curve.
If so before starting again i would look at Saper/Speedy new AAR. While Sapers start is near prefect u will need to get some where near that at leased make both a bullit profe Lvov pocket considering the forces involved and doing AGN with AGN only forces that gets both Riga and crosss the Davguna in first turn. U really should be near Pskov on turn 2, not turn 11 ;-). That will require some pratice tho. Prolly playing ur "self" head to head.

Some hints from looking at this AARs first turn. It seems to me u use in the inf way to little on turn one.(try and look where sapers inf are at end turn 1 and where urs are). In order to create big pockets u try to achieve that by not attacking much keeping enemy units where they are. The problem is to achieve the deep penetrations and making pockets hard/impossible not to open u really need the inf to create some holes for pz/mot and have them help in screening of pockets/RR lines. Leaving Pz with full mp to exploit/pocket making/securing.
The price is that a few units migth escape through routs yes, but if ur overall goal on turn 1 is met by maybe 4-6 units routing away instead of the first turn goals being met at turn 2-3. Well its the price u hafta pay. Btw and u can ask Ketza for advice. When u routs then units go, have a mechanic to it. That mean you can to some extend shape routs to be inside ur intedned "pockets". If u have a feeling for where routed units will and wont go too. 2ndly u didnt advance any of u RR units on turn 1. This is bad. Use the inf to make the holes where u can get RR repairing right off the bat plus secure those lines u want to use, so u can repair full or near alrdy on turn 2. Use inf to make this happen.

Kind regards, always cheery [;)]

Rasmus




Seminole -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 3:14:03 PM)

quote:

And right now the CV display is starting to make me hate this game, sorry but when I see a COMBAT VALUE ratio of 11 : 1, I expect a walk in the park, not 4 successive attacks to move the defender.


Are their possible issues with your command and control (keeping HQs close to their fighting units, and in turn within range of their parent HQs) that is killing your combat rolls?

What do the combat screens look like?




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 4:14:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Hi Terje,

I know its not really inline with ur personallity if i read u right. Non the less. This will be a replay of the last game. If this is a game where u should do better learning from past mistakes. Well, i think as u strongly hint at, thats not going to happen. So why continue. U might consider, here is the part where i expect "objections", to restart. U will hafta practice ur first turns tho. Problem is u really lose 1-2 turn on turn 1 and so on. U simply very early on gets way behind the curve.
If so before starting again i would look at Saper/Speedy new AAR. While Sapers start is near prefect u will need to get some where near that at leased make both a bullit profe Lvov pocket considering the forces involved and doing AGN with AGN only forces that gets both Rige and crosss the Daugana in first turn. U really should be near Pskov on turn 2, not turn 11 ;-). That will require some pratice tho. Prolly playing ur "self" head to head.

Some hints from looking at this AARs first turn. It seems to me u use in the inf way to little on turn one.(try and look where sapers inf are at end turn 1 and where urs are). In order to create big pockets u try to achieve that by not attacking much keeping enemy units where they are. The problem is to achieve the deep penetrations and making pockets hard/impossible not to open u really need the inf to create some holes for pz/mot and have them help in screening of pockets/RR lines. Leaving Pz with full mp to exploit/pocket making/securing.
The price is that a few units migth escape through routs yes, but if ur overall goal on turn 1 is met by maybe 4-6 units routing away instead of the first turn goals being met at turn 2-3. Well its the price u hafta pay. Btw and u can ask Ketza for advice. When u routs where they go have a mechanic to it. That mean to some extend to can shape "pockets" if u have a feeling for where u units will and wont route too. 2ndly u didnt advance any of u RR units on turn 1. This is bad. Use the inf to make the holes where u can get RR repairing starts off the bat plus secure those lines u want to use, so u can repair full or near alrdy on turn 2. Use inf to make this happen.

Kind regards, always cheery [;)]

Rasmus


Hehe first things first;
1. Restart. Nah. Still things that can be learned in this one, most importantly;
a) Blizzard operations
b) Getting better at making pockets
c) Get a better look at the various pools and how they fluctuate
d) Improve my defensive play

2. The "loss" of turn 1. That was a "I thought I did good but overlooked a few things"-turn, learnt from it, believe it or not [:)]

3. Not using Inf on T1, disagree with you on that one tbh. Yes, a few Inf was not used, they merely held positions to screen HQs/AFs from a possible USSR move west from the pocket. I did however use Inf to open a breach in the USSR line, but will look at more AARs to see how to best improve this aspect.

4. Not advancing RR units on T1, yup, that one was all me and piss poor planning on my behalf. Did not attack the "correct" hexes there.

So, what do I see with a perfect 20/20 hindsight? A couple of things stands out;
-poor placement of units during T1 (allowing the pocket to reopen etc)
-due to the above, I lose one turn, which again gives Brad one more turn to reinforce his Leningrad defences.
-I am moving way too slow, how people manage better speed is beyond me. The best (MP wise) Inf unit I have has 16 MP, that means up to 8 hexes if they do not attack and do not enter enemy ZoC. However, since they WILL enter enemy ZoC, this number drops. And since only a few units have such high MPs, most of my Inf will be even worse in terms of advancing. So, the only real mobile units ends up being the mech/Pz divs, which are quickly worn out.
Not to mention the uselessness of hasty attacks on my part, that is a 70-30 chance of success, the higher number being for a hold it seems.
-my ability to form pockets have increased somewhat however, as I am now managing to create pockets even when the enemy has a proper line in place.

All in all, still lots of work to do, and yes, this one too will be lost, but I will atleast TRY to learn as much as I can from it.


Terje




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 4:16:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

And right now the CV display is starting to make me hate this game, sorry but when I see a COMBAT VALUE ratio of 11 : 1, I expect a walk in the park, not 4 successive attacks to move the defender.


Are their possible issues with your command and control (keeping HQs close to their fighting units, and in turn within range of their parent HQs) that is killing your combat rolls?

What do the combat screens look like?


Seems more to do with the fact that either the game or my PC hates me and gives me annoyingly poor rolls.
HQ modifiers tends to be from nothing to -6%, so nothing major there. Will load the game and see if I can't manage to earn yet another silly/stupid/annoying held result (have no end-turn-save file going atm).


Terje




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 4:24:04 PM)

And that was all the time needed to get another high ratio CV attack fail with a hasty, paste it to paint and write some comments...




[image]local://upfiles/11504/5866CA5F55F54223A5640C8CB1388959.jpg[/image]




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 5:00:32 PM)

@All you experienced Axis players

So, heeding Rasmus' advice, I've played through some T1s, focusing only on AGN. Any comments to the screenie below?
Any feedback is appreciated.

Terje




[image]local://upfiles/11504/71B407D2600445D2837EC75041EBFBBC.jpg[/image]




Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 5:54:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

@All you experienced Axis players

So, heeding Rasmus' advice, I've played through some T1s, focusing only on AGN. Any comments to the screenie below?
Any feedback is appreciated.

Terje


Overall this is to much rout and too little pocketing, but i like that u try. Still should be able to do it with out AGC help!!
U clear to mnay cities denying rout spots. Again look at sapers first turn in Speedy's AAR.

Notes.
1. U can reach and occupy the S port by inf alone, if u move/attack with inf in the right order.
2 1 Mot can go up and take other port. The unit still has / MP left IIRC so i would move it on.
3. Ill give a few pic. What is importand to know is that units rout to towns/cities. Note how i dont go near those converting them. allowing routed units to go there and stay inside my pocket.
4 Alot of his hexes will convert to mine in his logicstic phase as they are isolated so it will look different in his turn.
5. Cleared RRs and moved inf into position so he cant move and zoc convert RR hexes.


[image]local://upfiles/22745/7F91A2438084484FA9A4E7D1E58DE8FB.jpg[/image]




timmyab -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 5:59:44 PM)

The main problem is that you can't afford to use all of 3rd pz group in the North.One corps at most and it should be crossing the Dvina between Daugavpils and Jekabpils.
Riga is pretty much a sure thing if 1st and 6th pz divisions cross the Dvina first and hasty attack from the East.Attach all support units from 41st pz corps with these two divisions and place 41st HQ and 4th pz group HQ as close as practical.It usually falls first time, if not second.If it needs three or four attacks then it does create complications.
Also as already mentioned, too much stuff routed and Liepaja not secured.

Edit.Actually I've just noticed that Liepaja is secured so I think it should be useless for supply or evacuation purposes?




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 6:05:26 PM)

Ok then, back to the planning board as soon as I am off work tomorrow [:)]

Terje




Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 7:24:38 PM)

Had to restart as its been a while since i did opening but idea is same. Eh painted ****ed up... sec

Terje note how my HQs are moved up so they can assist in rolls when attacking for example Riga. Do u move ur HQs during the turns so they always are in range to supprt rolls? the pic u gave going from unmodified 41 CV to modified 16 CV seems to suggest u dont. If it had been a pbem i would have moved PzG HQ too. So it be in supporting range on rolls.

Note how the RR are clear and how inf makes it impossible to move and ZoC convert any of the hexes ill use next turn.

When moving the mot/pz units up to Rige and across Daugava im very carefull about moving the units Terje. If u let the "auto" move long dsitances they will many times move adjcent to routred units. Routing them once again. I dont want that to happen as the 2nd rout would rout them out side the intended pockets.

Havent broken down any of the divs = Good to go next turn no MPs lost due to that.

Compare the inf positions to ur north turn 1 pic. Mine far more advance and i secured RR and no more units than on urs escape. This is what i meant about use of inf on turn 1. I dont mind attacking the Russian first line. I know where they will rout. Just shape pockets after that,. Then they as trapped as in ur version.


[image]local://upfiles/22745/4BB642C37B5240CEBDAA9C2A90A0E921.jpg[/image]




Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 7:28:25 PM)

Start russian turn. 1 tank div that usually only retreats and a sec reg routed out side pockets all other units are inside in AGN areas. Of those that are pocketble.





[image]local://upfiles/22745/B7007F4E8D2F468E86C49C1E92831895.jpg[/image]




Schmart -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 9:00:18 PM)

Terje,

I noted that in this game you didn't get Brest-Litovsk on T1. I find that this is critical in getting a good T1 sweep going for 2nd PzGrp. I've found that it's not that hard to capture on T1 with the right deliberate attack. On a bad roll, it may take 2 or even 3 attacks, but it is one of those MUST wins for T1. Which brings me to ask how often you are using hasty vs deliberate attack? I don't usually use hasties unless the enemy has already been worn down and pushed back at least once, no fortifications, no terrain modifiers, etc. or an obviously weak unit like SEC or vulnerable Brigade.

You may already be doing this, but just in case you're not:

I think it's generally best to blast a hole with deliberate infantry attacks to let the panzer run through, rather than using the panzers to blast the hole themselves at the same time as using the infantry to blast and exploit their own holes. Use infantry in more of a stop and go fashion (deliberate attacks one turn, then catch up with panzers the next turn), rather than trying to squeeze more MPs out of them using hasty attacks. Infantry can fight or march, but very rarely can/should they do both in the same turn. Better to have an almost guarranteed win (deliberate attack) and cause more enemy losses through retreat and routing, than trying to keep up with the panzers by risking hasty attacks. Use some infantry to blast away then different infantry to run into the gap, but the same units generally shouldn't be doing both tasks.




Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 9:11:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

Terje,

Which brings me to ask how often you are using hasty vs deliberate attack? I don't usually use hasties unless the enemy has already been worn down and pushed back at least once, no fortifications, no terrain modifiers, etc. or an obviously weak unit like SEC or vulnerable Brigade.


Im prolly a contrarian in that area. Its a question of knowing this early on. Things will change later but the first 5ish turns its np. As u can see in pic below. 30 battles battles only 7 are deliberate and 23 are hasty. Nada helds. Atlased 2 of the hasty is 2 or 3 inf divs attacking a russian inf div in fort 2. As long as u GS and have HQs correctly placed for maximum CV modification and there are no other modifiers like across river or fort + terrain, u can get away with much. Heck Riga a fort 2 and light urban was taken on a hasty vs an inf div.

Move up ur HQ for CV modification during the turn! lesson of the day.

Rasmus

[image]local://upfiles/22745/9711A01CCDD04AF29A5A5CC4F34B82FB.jpg[/image]




Schmart -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 9:17:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc
Im prolly a contrarian in that area. Its a question of knowing. As u can see in pic below. 30 battles battles only 7 are deliberate and 23 are hasty. Nada helds. 2 of the hasty is 2 or 3 inf divs attacking a russian inf div in fort 2. As long as u GS and have HQs correctly placed for maximum CV modification and there are no other modifiers like across river or fort + terrain, u can get away with much.


I was speaking more generally. Turn 1 is totally different, and even the first 5-10 turns can be more suitable to infantry hasties. But it's still situation dependent, as when the Russians start being able to re-form the front line hasties are much more risky.




Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/12/2012 9:18:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc
Im prolly a contrarian in that area. Its a question of knowing. As u can see in pic below. 30 battles battles only 7 are deliberate and 23 are hasty. Nada helds. 2 of the hasty is 2 or 3 inf divs attacking a russian inf div in fort 2. As long as u GS and have HQs correctly placed for maximum CV modification and there are no other modifiers like across river or fort + terrain, u can get away with much.


I was speaking more generally. Turn 1 is totally different, and even the first 5-10 turns can be more suitable to infantry hasties. But it's still situation dependent, as when the Russians start being able to re-form the front line hasties are much more risky.


Ok, Gotcha.

Rasmus




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/13/2012 8:55:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc
1a. Terje note how my HQs are moved up so they can assist in rolls when attacking for example Riga. Do u move ur HQs during the turns so they always are in range to supprt rolls?
1b. The pic u gave going from unmodified 41 CV to modified 16 CV seems to suggest u dont. If it had been a pbem i would have moved PzG HQ too. So it be in supporting range on rolls.

2. Note how the RR are clear and how inf makes it impossible to move and ZoC convert any of the hexes ill use next turn.

3. When moving the mot/pz units up to Rige and across Daugava im very carefull about moving the units Terje. If u let the "auto" move long dsitances they will many times move adjcent to routred units. Routing them once again. I dont want that to happen as the 2nd rout would rout them out side the intended pockets.

4. Havent broken down any of the divs = Good to go next turn no MPs lost due to that.

5. Compare the inf positions to ur north turn 1 pic. Mine far more advance and i secured RR and no more units than on urs escape. This is what i meant about use of inf on turn 1. I dont mind attacking the Russian first line. I know where they will rout. Just shape pockets after that,. Then they as trapped as in ur version.


1a. I could definitively be better at this, as I tend to move them last of all. My impression that it is a good thing not moving them to and from all the time, and rather move them no more than is required (which for me is only figured out AFTER all my moves are made as I never am able to figure out which attacks will hold and which will not).
1b. That one had it's HQ sitting 2 hexes to the rear...

2. Yup, also why I made so many attacks on my version, but guess there is no need to attack outside the rail.

3. I use both ways to move really, but I tend to use the shorter moves only when I want to make sure they do not go into some unneccessary ZoC.

4. Never do that myself, T1 I will rebuild those two divs that start broken down.

5. To be very picky [;)], some (3 of your inf) are further north than mine, while the bulk of y inf is further north than yours [:D]. But I know what you mean, the reason ofc is that I made alot more attacks with my inf to get rid of units.

Ok, so basically I "over"-attacked in my screenie it seems [:)]

Terje




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/13/2012 9:00:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

Terje,

1. I noted that in this game you didn't get Brest-Litovsk on T1. I find that this is critical in getting a good T1 sweep going for 2nd PzGrp. I've found that it's not that hard to capture on T1 with the right deliberate attack. On a bad roll, it may take 2 or even 3 attacks, but it is one of those MUST wins for T1.

2. Which brings me to ask how often you are using hasty vs deliberate attack? I don't usually use hasties unless the enemy has already been worn down and pushed back at least once, no fortifications, no terrain modifiers, etc. or an obviously weak unit like SEC or vulnerable Brigade.

3. You may already be doing this, but just in case you're not:

I think it's generally best to blast a hole with deliberate infantry attacks to let the panzer run through, rather than using the panzers to blast the hole themselves at the same time as using the infantry to blast and exploit their own holes. Use infantry in more of a stop and go fashion (deliberate attacks one turn, then catch up with panzers the next turn), rather than trying to squeeze more MPs out of them using hasty attacks. Infantry can fight or march, but very rarely can/should they do both in the same turn. Better to have an almost guarranteed win (deliberate attack) and cause more enemy losses through retreat and routing, than trying to keep up with the panzers by risking hasty attacks. Use some infantry to blast away then different infantry to run into the gap, but the same units generally shouldn't be doing both tasks.


1. May I ask why it is important to get on T1? *edit* ah, the rail. Did not attack as I did not want to rout the defenders into the path of the panzers and then be routed once more out of the pocket.
2. Deliberate - fortified positions, river crossings, any stack with more than 3 def CV, city attack
Hasty - 1 def CV units, or if I attack with a stack, 2-3 def CV values.
My problem seems to be that those "weak" looking units are all made up of Cpt.America, Spiderman and The Hulk...
3. Yup, let the Inf blow the hole, then pour the mech/pz through, only attacking to clear a path, starting with the rear most pz/mech.


Terje




randallw -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/13/2012 9:07:04 AM)

One division on a hasty attack has a decent chance to fail, even if the target's CV or manpower seem comparatively lower.




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/13/2012 9:45:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

One division on a hasty attack has a decent chance to fail, even if the target's CV or manpower seem comparatively lower.


That then raises the Q, what are the CV numbers for [;)]
Gonna read my 5,6,7 and 8s as Q from now on, so my attack ratio will be Q : 1. Makes as much sense to me atm...


Terje




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/13/2012 9:53:20 AM)

Turn 13

Overall
So, we attack all along the line, and take some hexes, but once more it is in the south we make the most progress. Although, it seems Brad has shifted troops from Leningrad to the south, as a wall of units suddenly appears...
134 attacks result in 25 helds (12 determined, 13 hasty), 82 retreats, 18 routs and 9 surrenders.

USSR units in pockets at start of turn
17.

USSR units in pockets at the end of turn
7.

OOBs
USSR : 4.5M
Germany : 3.3M

Losses
USSR : 291.000 troops, 3.777 guns, 1.083 AFVs, 338 AC.
Axis : 62.000 troops, 691 guns, 161 AFVs, 101 AC.

USSR units destroyed
2 tank divisions, 1 motorized division, 9 rifle divisions, 2 cavalry divisions, 1 airborne brigade.

German pools
Manpower : 1287 (+211)
Vehicle : 163.988 (+1.793)
Armaments : 63.985 (-19.253)
Hiwi : 99.704 (+8. 578)
Well, these pools shows that I have to pull some units off the line and drop their TOE way down, bleeding armaments atm...




[image]local://upfiles/11504/AB18AFF5144A42E2AB309199B65F5B40.jpg[/image]




Walloc -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/13/2012 12:43:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

My impression that it is a good thing not moving them to and from all the time, and rather move them no more than is required (which for me is only figured out AFTER all my moves are made as I never am able to figure out which attacks will hold and which will not).


Well, the smart thing is ofc not to move them more than necesarry. It costs trucks to move them. So its very situasional. Non the less i purposly picked 1 pz corps that moved to Riga or rather it picked its self as its that one that can make it, but idea is units are of the same command. Before making that attack on Riga(in this case they made no attack on the way up) i moved the HQ up. Lets say they hafta had to attack 2 enemy units on the way to clear the way. Then i would have moved HQ up so it be in range for those attacks on the way before making the attacks. Then done the attacks, moved mot/pz units on and then move HQ in range again if another attack like a final one on Riga would have taken place. In Pbems, i would as there are no other places that the Pzgroup HQ is needed have moved that up too. As the other pz corps doesnt really make any attacks,
Here is the tricky thing. While direct HQ aka corps HQ in this case just has to be in range(doesnt matter if its range 1 or 5 as long as they in command) and then roll modifiers are the same. When it comes to HQ higher up the chain the closer the better. Its not just a question of that HQ being in range. Actual number of hexes directly to that HQ affects the rolls. So leaving it as i does in this instance at the border is bad play by me.

quote:


1b. That one had it's HQ sitting 2 hexes to the rear...


Ok bad luck on rolls then. My next question would be ofc be where is the HQs up in the chain located?
As per above having the Army HQ/Army group HQ closest possible makes the difference if rolls are failed at corps HQ.

quote:


2. Yup, also why I made so many attacks on my version, but guess there is no need to attack outside the rail.


Exactly. Looking at the places ur enemy routs ends up in, it seems like u either gone adjecting to them after first rout. Forcing 2nd rout or attacked causing a 2nd rout, cuz they are "deeper" than where my enemy routs ends generally. Im carefull in making sure that 90% of the time i try and not having to make the 2nd rout cuz that will surely make them rout outside what is pocketble. Also as u can see in my pic one. I purposely leave cities/towns open so russian units can rout there. If the SS mot div had taken a route that was 2 hexes more easternly i would take taken the 2 hexes that now holds 5 units. Denying the option of making them rout there, which is bad as i want them there. Aka pocket shaping.

quote:


3. I use both ways to move really, but I tend to use the shorter moves only when I want to make sure they do not go into some unneccessary ZoC.


Ok i just find espcially here on turn 1 that the AI tends to move my units on routes that would make them go adjecent to routed russian units causing a 2nd rout that i try to avoid. As per above.

quote:


5. To be very picky [;)], some (3 of your inf) are further north than mine, while the bulk of y inf is further north than yours [:D]. But I know what you mean, the reason ofc is that I made alot more attacks with my inf to get rid of units.


Sorry i wasnt clear enough. I meant ur original turn 1 in this thread [:)]

quote:


Ok, so basically I "over"-attacked in my screenie it seems [:)]


Exactly. Once the rail is secure. Its making pockets time. Attack "once" is good making them as in my pic route to Towns/cities just behind the line then when u exploit avoid going adjecent to them forcing a 2nd rout. Unless they will are in positions that is just out side the pocket ur making. Then its actually adviseble to make them rerout so then they dont rally to turn 2 and can be used to break ur pockets.

This advice is specific to AGN and AGC in turn 1 mostly. AGS i do and it seems other too do things a bit different. Cuz of the depth of the russian defence. Routs are a bad thing as in most cases just 1 rout will make units unpocketble. There are cases where u hafta attack to clear the way but keep routs to minimum is key there, while surrounding as much. Also as moral is generally higher in AGS russian u can gamble more on them just making a retreat rather than rout, but it will be subject to rolls so it is a gamble. Speedy AAR vs Saper shows about the best possible in AGS but that really take practice. Non the less if using a pz corps from AGC u should be able to make Lvov unbreakble on turn 1, if not aiming for Sapers double pockets.

Kind regards,

Rasmus




terje439 -> RE: What?! Seriously?! You are back for more??? No Oloren!! (9/13/2012 5:14:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc
quote:


1b. That one had it's HQ sitting 2 hexes to the rear...


Ok bad luck on rolls then. My next question would be ofc be where is the HQs up in the chain located?
As per above having the Army HQ/Army group HQ closest possible makes the difference if rolls are failed at corps HQ.




Was actually sitting on top of the other HQ [:)]
But thanks for clearifying things Rasmus [&o]

Terje




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