RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (Full Version)

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jjdenver -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 6:41:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The weird thing about this Voronezh business is that it was von Bock who got dismissed in real life for getting sucked into a battle there. Arguably it shouldn't be a German objective at all. It may have even prejudiced the drive down the Don and ultimately Stalingrad.

Yah the whole dismissal rule is a bit odd really. It's not an RPG, it's a strategy game, wargame, simulation of the campaign. The war went on and commanders were sacked all the time on both sides.



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 6:42:16 AM)

In the games i've played against the AI on hard so far as germany i haven't found it terribly hard to take.

But anyway it would be relatively easy to mod the scen to have the first objectives be randomized. Every time i've started it's always rostov, voro, millo.




Grotius -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 8:04:40 AM)

I personally enjoy having the Dismissal option, but I hope Vic considers adding a less punitive new option too. Maybe a per-turn VP penalty for failing to take an objective in time.

Alternatively, emulate War in the Pacific and allow the players to play on after "Dismissal." In WITP, you could have an auto-Japanese victory in January 1943, but players would play on anyway, and then they'd see who had the VP edge in 1945.

For now, though, I'm playing the AI with Dismissal on. It adds tension. :) If I lose, I lose, and I'll start over (maybe without Dismissal!).



James Ward -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 1:23:18 PM)

Regarding the dismissal option, who exactly are we when we command a side? We are not OKH or Stavka, or else we are schizo and beg ourselves for more troops when we use the cards. Was there a command level between Stavka and a Front commander? I know there were different Army Groups for the Germans, is that who we are when we play the Axis? We seem to be a bit of an abstraction, we don't even rate a counter. [:)]
I don't think the option should be eliminated but maybe the penalty for the first , or even 2nd, failure should be changed. As suggested by others costing VP's or changing the number of VP's required for different levels of victory might be a solution.



Flaviusx -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 1:44:10 PM)

Early in the war the Soviets instituted theater commands in between STAVKA and the Front, but in practice this proved superfluous (Stalin mostly ignored this command layer and intervened directly at the Front level.) They were wound up in 1942.

By the end of that year and for the rest of the war the Soviets developed an ad hoc command layer between STAVKA and the Front via so called STAVKA representatives. These were not formal geographical commands like the theaters, but STAVKA would designate such and such general with oversight responsibility over a given operation involving multiple Fronts. Vasilevsky, for example, coordinated the Stalingrad offensive in this capacity. Him and Zhukov were the two primary STAVKA representatives until nearly the end of the war.



James Ward -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 2:04:47 PM)

^ Thanks.



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 3:42:25 PM)

Alas this game is dead. That's a bummer put a lot of work into the first turn AAR. OH well if someone else wants to do a PBEM let me know. Case Blue (allow flieger on, Dismiss off). I'd prefer to play with password on but pbem protection off to make it easy to save and come back and review and build the AAR but i'm fine with it on until someone is comfortable about potential "cheating/retrying things". Just making an AAR is a bit more of a pita with it enabled and I enjoy having an aar going with my games to add another level of fun. But it's no deal breaker.



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 4:34:44 PM)

^ you want to play the soviets again? how many 'restarts' in case of bad weather do you offer?



olivier34 -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 4:50:37 PM)

I am in if I can start a turn, check the weather and if there is rain in the first 20 turns, I re start until I get a sunny weather like I have here in south of France [8D]



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 7:04:35 PM)

ok we struck a deal. We're going to both restart i'll run a german game and he'll run a german game. That way there can be no tears over one random unlucky turn. :)



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 7:07:52 PM)

lol keunert and olivier34 you two are funny. :) Yea i wasn't completely pleased about it we both sunk a lot of time into T1. I sunk an hour into the AAR at least. But abulbulian is good people and sometimes i cry too. There were a few times i called bullshit on WITE and took some pauses in the play either.

It's so hard when a game is so close to amazing but little stuff makes it hard to ignore. Like with WITE having week long turns i'd open a turn then all the sudden a whole ****ing front out of nowhere would be surrounded and the troops would be fighting like little girls all the sudden. :)

We all have our moments. Abulbulian forgives me when i whine so it's only fair to return the favor. Besides he's a good player and i enjoy his style of play even though he typically beats me.



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 7:25:09 PM)

So i'll post game 2 of my russian experience here. I'll build my german page in a bit once i get the turn done. But any suggestions? First thing as germany i want to do is rename the korps. I know it's probably immersive to some but was XXXX the panzer korp or XXIV? or XLV or LLLIVXXAAKSKIDKD.

:) I gotta renumber these things to be easily recognizable. One other thing that is bugging me is group move doesn't really work well because of the artillery regiments that germany has. Wish there was a group move and a stack move to just move whats in the stack.

Anyway anybody else have any suggestions?



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 7:45:06 PM)

my suggestion would be to start with a general analysis of the russian strategy you plan to play.
that would help me a lot.



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 8:20:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keunert

my suggestion would be to start with a general analysis of the russian strategy you plan to play.
that would help me a lot.


OH i meant suggestions for me playing as germany. :P

Ahh as russia i'm always very aggressive. Too much so. Though i've become a bit more cautious in my old age. Unlike wite w/ 2 day turns you have time to react and prevent major pockets. Things like C&C boning your AP's might screw you up and cause you to get divisions destroyed. But at least with this you can go down fighting if you're cut off and sure to die lash out with an attack at 100% retreat ratio to take some nazi's with you.

I think you'll be surprised by how you can lose a ton of troops but if you nickle and dime the germans after awhile they won't have units at full strength anymore.

The most important "skill" for a russian player is don't give up. You take your lumps but you can bleed the germans dry. And turn 1 start replacing ****ty generals. I replace briansk front as the very first thing because him screwing up screws up 3 armies one of them being the 5TA which should be able to put some wood onto the nazi's and help slow the drive on voronezh.

Use your cards (like fortify) i was planning to fortify a hex every couple turns around places i needed to hold onto.
And remember it's not magic instant fortification like WITE you have to dig in still for a few turn's. So don't put the forts right on your front lines thinking they are supermen now. You need to have them be a turn or 2 back since all the fort does is raise the allowed entrench level to 200.

Also if you have things entrenched you can't attack or you lose your entrenchment.

My approach could be all wrong. :) But seriously #1 hang in there. There are super dark days in 1941 so be glad we're not playing a 1941 scen. 1942 still has some darkness but you can find places to outright destroy good german units if the german player is not careful. For me the one turn out of 10 where i am able to completely destroy a german unit holds me over for awhile. Unlike atg you can't build rail lines either so you have to remember where they are on the map. There are some parts of the map that are in mountains that you can hold which only serve to keep germans from getting the rail line and hence supply.




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/10/2012 6:53:20 AM)

Ok i should have my new T1 sometime shortly and i'll finish it tonight before doing up teh screenies and the Situation Report.



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/10/2012 8:14:49 PM)

Oops



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/11/2012 7:39:42 PM)

Turns in i'll work on getting it screenied up today.



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/11/2012 10:19:14 PM)

Blah well this replay is more of a pita. More losses for me as well as this time 5TA's mobile units lost enough of their trucks in the T1 event that they are now foot speed so won't be as helpful in battling the 9PzD and 11PzD.




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/12/2012 11:26:16 PM)

T1G2 (Turn 1 Game 2) is in and here are the highlights.

In the north we reminded nazi's you can't just encircle us without first destroying our fighting spirit.
[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-2mot-hithard.png[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/12/2012 11:27:32 PM)

Ara was careful not to leave his panzer Rgt sitting without support but they were without aircover so we pounced.

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-il2storm.png[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/12/2012 11:29:47 PM)

With almost two full divisions encircled inside of Tim we rushed over some AT units and a tank brigade and managed to maul 2/11PzD and free our brave soldiers.

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-11pzhit.png[/image]




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/12/2012 11:46:18 PM)

The Battle for Nowy-Oskol

June 28, 1942 2350 hours
Situation:
German forces approaching the bridge over the Oskol river in unknown numbers. Civilian reports suggest a PzD or MotD.

Forces:
478Sep.TBn along with some engineering assets

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-nowy-oskol.png[/image]

Preparations are being made to blow the bridge and fall back to the east.

June 29 0300 hours.

18TC was rushing west along the highway to help defend the city. The first unit they ran into was 3/29MotD. 478Sep.TBn along with the advance rgt 3/18TC advanced and engaged the enemy who had not entered into defensive posture. While engaged in battle 3/226RD drove east down the road from Korotscha to block the enemys retreat. The enemy unit was destroyed.

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-18tc.png[/image]
[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-29mothit1.png[/image]

After the first enemy regiment was destroyed the local commander was informed that the 2 ID rgt's were 10km north of the road and 20km west of the oskol river. The rest of the 18TC working in concert with the remainder of 226RD encircled the 29MotD.

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-29mothit2.png[/image]

After the battle was finished the german MotD was destroyed.
[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-29mothit3.png[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/12/2012 11:51:57 PM)

5TA was in the midst of retrofitting their halftracks and trucks after coming out of a cold winter.
They had not successfully gotten all the equipment fixed so their mobility was lowered. They will not be involved in the battle for at least another 2-4 days.

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-5ta-mess.png[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/12/2012 11:54:10 PM)

In the south the leader of 56A(redesignated Rostov Front Army - RFA) ordered an attack against 1/Wiking MotD to free the 31RD,339RD from certain destruction

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-rostov-escape.png[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/13/2012 4:28:37 AM)

Death Count

Casualties
[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-casualties.png[/image]

Fighter Deaths
[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-fighterdeath.png[/image]

Tank Deaths
[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-tankdeath.png[/image]



bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/13/2012 4:41:32 AM)

Situation Map

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-sitmap.png[/image]




Sevastopol
[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/ara/game2_sov/t1-sevastopol.png[/image]



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/13/2012 7:30:06 AM)

wow great aar, great counterattacks.
the destruction of the 29 mot div would
bother me more than bad weather.



Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/13/2012 7:35:44 AM)

i don't get it how your 18 TC was able to destroy the german PZ bat? did you play a card?
the german unit most likely couldn't retreat because it had no ap left. but with it's high morale it should have been able to achieve a hold result?



rominet -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/13/2012 9:18:10 AM)

Thank you for this AAR which illustrates (at least for me but I feel a little lonely) the only real trouble of this game: the combat routine that is too deadly and too expeditious.
The complete destruction of 2 reg of the 29th PzGr in just one turn seems very unrealistic. Even during the winter 41-42, it did not happen. The encircled German units have largely resisted Russian attacks and kept the shock (with heavy losses of course).
This is certainly not an easy problem to solve.
IMHO, direct combat should inflict less losses but the units should keep the same ability to make breakthrough.

And what about of the nearly 100 K russian and 20 K german losses in just two days.
At this rate, the Red Army will be gone in a month, needless to make vast encirclements, direct combat should suffice.



Blind Sniper -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/13/2012 10:27:49 AM)

quote:

And what about of the nearly 100 K russian and 20 K german losses in just two days.
At this rate, the Red Army will be gone in a month, needless to make vast encirclements, direct combat should suffice.


I agree, this is the kill ratio from my game after 8 turns (missing the 8th Soviet turn), with replacements/reinforcements included.

[image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/29878/F593CD3ABDF549FE82440219B4F7BEBD.jpg[/image]



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