Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (Full Version)

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bwheatley -> Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 4:26:26 AM)

Let's see how we do. :)




Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 6:15:49 AM)

looking forward to your aar!




jjdenver -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 3:14:03 PM)

Ah fun, another AAR - love it.

Oh, and for god's sake please don't use the "dismissal" option. It is ruining the keunert-olivier AAR which is about to end very prematurely. It's clearly not a balanced option if the Soviet commander is sacked in a couple of weeks for doing what was done historically - getting pummeled in summer 42. I had a suspicion it would be poorly implemented and it is. The very drastic nature of that option (game ends) makes it critical that it is either not used or is implemented very very well. I love Vic's stuff but in this case it was a fail on the implementation of that option. To his credit at least it's just an "option" and not a built-in rule. He always does a good job of giving players options and enabling mods in his games.


In fact I have the same feeling about the oil rule. The Germans of AGS didn't really have oil problems in 1942 since they got priority for petrol supplies from the Reich. There were however problems pushing oil to the frontline units and the Luftwaffe was forced to actually fly in oil to the spearheads because the German logistics system just wasn't able to support pushing oil this deep into Russia - a problem that plagues the Germans throughout the campaign. There was petrol and supplies available but as the Germans advanced they just couldn't manage to push those supplies to the front. I don't think this problem is modeled very well at all in Case Blue because it only takes I think 4 days to convert rail lines - 8 days is not a real represenation of how long it took the Germans to convert rail lines - it actually took much longer.

The real resonance of oil shortages was felt across other fronts and in later years more than by AGS in 1942 since AGS had priority for Axis oil I think.... but that's another topic - anyway at least don't use the "dismissal" option so we can all enjoy a nice long campaign AAR. Thanks. :)




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 4:26:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Ah fun, another AAR - love it.

Oh, and for god's sake please don't use the "dismissal" option. It is ruining the keunert-olivier AAR which is about to end very prematurely. It's clearly not a balanced option if the Soviet commander is sacked in a couple of weeks for doing what was done historically - getting pummeled in summer 42. I had a suspicion it would be poorly implemented and it is. The very drastic nature of that option (game ends) makes it critical that it is either not used or is implemented very very well. I love Vic's stuff but in this case it was a fail on the implementation of that option. To his credit at least it's just an "option" and not a built-in rule. He always does a good job of giving players options and enabling mods in his games.


In fact I have the same feeling about the oil rule. The Germans of AGS didn't really have oil problems in 1942 since they got priority for petrol supplies from the Reich. The real resonance of oil shortages was felt across other fronts and in later years more than by AGS in 1942 I think.... but that's another topic - anyway at least don't use the "dismissal" option so we can all enjoy a nice long campaign AAR. Thanks. :)


Ya we didn't use it this time. I figured we could try it when we were more experienced but now we're too rookie to know how it might **** us over. And hah we'll see if it's long abulbulian wants to restart because he got heavy rain on T2. So we'll see if we restart or if he eventually keeps going. If you know him from WITE you know he's strong minded guy. :) Anyway here are some screens with T1 to come.




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 4:38:35 PM)

To start off I forgot to take start screen screenies.

The front is a mess. But in the north the 13A commander decides that with 5th Tank Army (5TA) less then a days march away that he will fight.

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/t1-attack.png[/image]

A little to the south the 160RD and 6RD part of 40A find themselves 20km behind enemy lines. The local commander decides his best chance of escape is to push NE through what turns out to be the Panzer Rgt of the 3rd Pz Division. The panzer regiment was apparently staging for a continued drive eastward.
They did not anticipate the soviets to attempt a break out from their SW.

Even the mighty panzers were no match for 2 divisions of soviets who know that to be captured is treason under soviet law.

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/t1-9th_encircled.png[/image]




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 4:48:03 PM)

The 111RD, 119RD, and 141RD all push west to encircle one of the 9th Pz Divisions Motorized PzG Regiments.
The 170TB sweeps south to flank the now cut off PzG regiment.

The coordination was successful (79% concentric attack bonus) due to all of 40A units only working together.

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/t1-9th_hit.png[/image]

In just a few hours of battle the german forces realize there is no way out. The normally steadfast germans finally break and panic and are rounded up. The first battle of Kastornoye is a resounding soviet success. In a days work half the combat power of the 9th Pz Division has been decimated.

There is plenty of work left to do and the soviets are down but not out.

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/t1-9th_russiansnotout.png[/image]




Blind Sniper -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 4:56:00 PM)

He is doing my very same mistakes, don't push too hard and give the concentric bonus.
Also don't give up too many terrain.




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 5:34:35 PM)

T1 - North (End of Turn)

Situation Report - 2000 Hours June 28th

Briansk Front - Commander I. Golikov
Commander I. Golikov relieved of duty for failure to take up proper defensive positions.
Replaced by V. D. Tsvetsaev.

13th Army - Commander N. P. Pukhov
Opposition - LV Corps, XIII PZ Corps, XXIV PZ Corps
Preparing to defend the area around Livny in a line running north to south with defense in deep between 20-30km.
143RD, 132RD, 15MRD,129TB along with an ATBn - Counter attacked south and forced a retreat for the 1st SS Brigade.

50th Tank Army - Commander A. I. Liziukov
Opposition - XIII PZ Corps, XXIV PZ Corps
Moved west to bivouac around Kastornoye area. Preparing defenses.
4TC, 16TC,8CG(Cavalry Group hereforth, 19th Sep. TBn - All released from briansk front reserves to 50TA.

4TC moves far SW to try to slow any germany advance through the large southern gap in the lines by Stary-Oskol.

40th Army - Commander M. A. Parsegov
Opposition - XIII PZ Corps, XXIV PZ Corps
Preparing defenses SW of Kastornoye.
6RD,160RD - Both units cut off in town of Tim. Both fought NE to meet up with 111RD. Engaged a panzer regiment of 9Pz.

62RD, 45RD - Cut off with little hope of rescue 10KM NE of Rsjawa

111RB,119RB,141RB,170TB along with a rocket Btry - cut off, attacked and destroyed a Mot PzG regiment of 9Pz.


[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/t1-north_end.png[/image]




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 6:05:56 PM)

South Western Front - Commander S. K. Timoshenko

General Situation - Hole torn in the front from Stary-Oskol in the north to Valyuki in the south of the front.

21st Army - Commander A. I. Danilov
Opposition - Elements of 4PzA, 6A, unknown the rest of our opposition yet. Recon has been poor.
4PzA pushing SE from Rsjawa while 6A is pushing NE from the Woltschansk area.
Nothing has been cut off yet but we are in severe risk.
All forces are trying to retreat behind the oskol river.

28th Army - Commander D. I. Riabyshev
Opposition - 6th Army
3Gds.CG - encircled and likely will be lost.
Majority of our units have been destroyed.
124RD - Down to 1 understrength RR. Setting up defenses on the east side of the oskol river.
38RD - Down to 2 understrength RR. Setting up defenses on the west side of the oskol river west of valyuki.
169RD - 3 understrength RR. Setting up defenses on the east side of the oskol river.
23TC - 4 TR. Setting up defenses on the east side of the oskol river.
65TB,91TB - Understrength setting up defenses south of Valyuki.


38th Army - Commander K. S. Moskalenko
Opposition - 6th Army?? Recon foggy.
Majority of our units are still in fighting shape. We are all organizing a line south of Valyuki to north of Swatovo.
Army Reserve is the 242RD.


[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/t1_center.png[/image]




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 6:06:32 PM)

Note next turn i'll take actual screenshots based on the fronts..i wasn't used to it yet. :)




Grotius -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 6:10:36 PM)

Enjoying the AAR so far. Personally, I like the Dismissal option; it is sure adding tension to my own game against the AI. But I hope Vic considers a less-drastic alternative -- perhaps a Victory Point penalty or something for failing to take/hold objections. The more options, the better.




Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 6:16:37 PM)

wow what a reply in the north! and even before the arrival of the infamous 5th TA!




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 6:47:30 PM)

Southern Front - Commander R. I. Malinovksy

General Situation - The largest front we have breaches of the donetz NE of Slawjansk.
We have breaches in 4 places through the front. Most breaches are only 10km wide and 10km deep. Though by Rostov the germans have a 30km wide breach 20km behind the frontlines. Situation in front of Rostov is quickly becoming untenable unless reinforcements are released.

9th Army - Commander A. I. Lopatin
Opposition - 6th Army??
All remaining forces are working on building defenses around Swatovo and getting behind the Krasnaya river.

37th Army - Commander P. M. Kozlov
Opposition - ??
All remaining forces trying to cross the Donetz via the bridge at Lisitchansk


12th Army - Commander A. A. Grechko
Opposition - ??
All remaining forces are pulling back east to avoid encirclement. The terrain favors the defense against the German Pz's. We have delaying positions at Artemovsk north and south for 30km. The main HQ is based at Voroshilovgrad.

18th Army - Commander F. V. Kamkov
Opposition - ??
All remaining forces are pulling back east to avoid encirclement. But there is a 10km wide valley that runs NE into the hinterland.
353RD - Commander Kamkov came to the front himself to help us during the coming battle. (32% defensive combat bonus). We are positioned on the hills directly east of the main german position. We expect to take the brunt of the initial assault.
64TB, and ATBn units - are north in the valley setting up a blocking position to prevent the german Pz from exploiting the clear terrain.
395RD - Setting up blocking positions to the south of 353RD on the valley and hills.

24th Army - Commander I. K. Smirnov
Opposition -
Front reserves that were released and directed to move north of rostov. Currently on the road expected arrival 48-72 hours.

56th Army - Commander V. V. Tsyganov
Opposition - ??
Comrade Stalin has re-designated 56A as the Rostov Front Army (RFA).
31RD,339RD - Encircled NW of Rostov and likely will be destroyed.
30RD - Requested permission to attempt a break out of 31RD,339RD by attacking the Wiking Pz MotR. Permission was denied. United ordered to retreat 10km and setup a 30km long screen to allow time for a proper defense of Rostov to be set up.
81Mar.RB - Moved 20km E to setup fortifications. Stavka got the build army to build fortifications. The army commander also visited and supervised the digging (140entrench).
811RB - Setting up blocking positions
2Gds.RB - Setting up a wide defensive screen NW of Rostov
76Mar.RB,68Mar.RB - Setting up screens


[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/t1_southwest.png[/image]

[image]http://witewiki.com/billfiles/games/dc2/images/t1_rostov.png[/image]






bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 6:48:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Enjoying the AAR so far. Personally, I like the Dismissal option; it is sure adding tension to my own game against the AI. But I hope Vic considers a less-drastic alternative -- perhaps a Victory Point penalty or something for failing to take/hold objections. The more options, the better.


If it was like WITP that would be best...saying you lose but you guys can keep playing if you want just to know. That would be the best imo.




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 6:54:37 PM)

Note: I forgot all about sevastopol and the caucasus.

Sevastopol -
The germans forced 10KM closer to the city limits.
We have mobilized our fleet to attempt a rescue of the remaining troops if/when the situation seems hopeless.

Caucasus -
We have kept the 47A and 46A in place to protect against seaborn invasion. Though we have released 51A to help provide defense to rostov. Estimated arrival 48-72 hours.




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 6:55:14 PM)

Note: My opponent is unhappy about the random weather and is thinking about having me replay the turn while i'm trying to talk him into giving it a shot. :) So we'll see where it goes.




Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 8:27:11 PM)

what's the alternative? play without weather? there is only this weather available.




olivier34 -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 11:12:18 PM)

Great AAR and the fate of the 9th panzer is scary ! Maybe some preventive airstrike against those soviets that had a good starting position to attack the 9th could have help...
Reading this AAR, I understand that my friend Keunert is having some trouble with his boss, mister Staline. He may lose his job and finish in a goulag of some sort. [:D]




balto -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 11:54:42 PM)

In my low skill experience with Case Blue, I see these results as typical. The Germans cannot win against a reasonably good Russian player.

What happened in the north to the 9th Panzer always happens. The Germans do not have time on their side, so they must relentlessly attack. It is somewhat easy for the Russians to hang back and strike a spearhead here and there (one to three a turn) while their replacements and reinforcement and entrenchment keep increasing. MY god the 5th Tank Army is a freaking monster unit!!

I predict the Olivier will be the only AAR where the Germans are successful. I believe that because Olivier's tactical understanding of the game's combat engine is freakishly great. He knows how to make penetrations into three lines of defenders and he knows when the defenders are weak. So barring his genius, I doubt anyone can win with the Germans.

I think the Dismissal option is great. It does not sneak up on you in the middle of a contested scenario. Based on Olivier's AAR, it arises ONLY when you have clearly beaten your opponent into a bloody heap. I therefore see the Dismissal Option as a great way to prevent someone from suffering for 20-50 turns in these super long scenarios. Someone like me that is not very smart, Dismissal would be a godsend.

Really looking forward to this AAR. Nothing against your opponent but if you combine the German disadvantage with bad luck in the weather on the first two turns, this one is already over unless you experiment and try some reckless maneuvers.




balto -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/7/2012 11:59:54 PM)

Most importantly, this AAR is organized fantastically. You start off with your HQ units, than their subunits, and you work from the North to the South. To me, this is super fantastic. Looking forward to your excellent battle (that you will win).




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/8/2012 1:39:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: olivier34

Great AAR and the fate of the 9th panzer is scary ! Maybe some preventive airstrike against those soviets that had a good starting position to attack the 9th could have help...
Reading this AAR, I understand that my friend Keunert is having some trouble with his boss, mister Staline. He may lose his job and finish in a goulag of some sort. [:D]




Heh i wasn't brave enough to play with dismissal on because i don't like a perm end being forced upon us. I'm ok if it pops up a message saying you lose but you can continue to play. :)




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/8/2012 1:41:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

In my low skill experience with Case Blue, I see these results as typical. The Germans cannot win against a reasonably good Russian player.

What happened in the north to the 9th Panzer always happens. The Germans do not have time on their side, so they must relentlessly attack. It is somewhat easy for the Russians to hang back and strike a spearhead here and there (one to three a turn) while their replacements and reinforcement and entrenchment keep increasing. MY god the 5th Tank Army is a freaking monster unit!!

I predict the Olivier will be the only AAR where the Germans are successful. I believe that because Olivier's tactical understanding of the game's combat engine is freakishly great. He knows how to make penetrations into three lines of defenders and he knows when the defenders are weak. So barring his genius, I doubt anyone can win with the Germans.

I think the Dismissal option is great. It does not sneak up on you in the middle of a contested scenario. Based on Olivier's AAR, it arises ONLY when you have clearly beaten your opponent into a bloody heap. I therefore see the Dismissal Option as a great way to prevent someone from suffering for 20-50 turns in these super long scenarios. Someone like me that is not very smart, Dismissal would be a godsend.

Really looking forward to this AAR. Nothing against your opponent but if you combine the German disadvantage with bad luck in the weather on the first two turns, this one is already over unless you experiment and try some reckless maneuvers.



That's a good point about dismissal. :) And don't worry Ara is one tough cookie. Whenever we play he bests me 55-75% of the time. :)




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/8/2012 1:48:02 AM)


quote:

Really looking forward to this AAR. Nothing against your opponent but if you combine the German disadvantage with bad luck in the weather on the first two turns, this one is already over unless you experiment and try some reckless maneuvers.


Heh anyone who sees my AAR's knows i'm always reckless. I always attack when i should defend. I always push when i should stop. LOL In War Plan Orange i managed to capture hawaii by just wrecking my entire military and navy.
So i lost the game heh.

I'm learning though i'm trying to keep at least 1 division per army in the backfield just in case.

At least with this germany has some flexibility to experiment instead of living and dying on the rails setup by WITE. And i'm still on the fence about whether the game is un-winnable as germany. They have such a good experienced military and generals with awesome cards. I think a good german player will be able to win.
It will probably be like when WITE came out and german players had to learn how to win. It will probably be a little less dramatic than that but anyone who's had AT/ATG experience shouldn't be that far off.
Worst case we as the community can build a version that gives germany increased replacements or some such.




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/8/2012 1:49:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

Most importantly, this AAR is organized fantastically. You start off with your HQ units, than their subunits, and you work from the North to the South. To me, this is super fantastic. Looking forward to your excellent battle (that you will win).


Hah thanks the inspiration was from reading Barbasrossa Derailed by David Glantz. It goes over newly declassified daily reports the way he lays the data out is the way i'm doing it. It just really speaks to me. And I really enjoy AAR's that drag you in like you're in the HQ.




jjdenver -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/8/2012 4:47:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
At least with this germany has some flexibility to experiment instead of living and dying on the rails setup by WITE. And i'm still on the fence about whether the game is un-winnable as germany. They have such a good experienced military and generals with awesome cards. I think a good german player will be able to win.
It will probably be like when WITE came out and german players had to learn how to win. It will probably be a little less dramatic than that but anyone who's had AT/ATG experience shouldn't be that far off.
Worst case we as the community can build a version that gives germany increased replacements or some such.


Good post bw. I generally agree. If the scenario seems to play out ahistorically then it can be tweaked for combat values, replacements, etc. But if it plays out historically and Germans can't win then victory calcs can be tweaked.




jjdenver -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/8/2012 5:06:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: balto
I think the Dismissal option is great. It does not sneak up on you in the middle of a contested scenario. Based on Olivier's AAR, it arises ONLY when you have clearly beaten your opponent into a bloody heap.


Sadly this is just not the fact. The Germans captured Voronezh by July 7 as you can see from this map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Eastern_Front_1942-05_to_1942-11.png

In Olivier-Kunert AAR it isn't captured until around July 14. The Soviets also took terrifically high losses in June and July 42 leaving their armies in shambles and falling back toward the Don and Volga historically. So Kunert is actually doing as well as the Soviets did historically yet being dismissed. Furthermore I think Kunert is not necessarily losing the game. The Soviets start with only 25% of their total scenario strength on map. The battle has not yet even begun for Kunert.

But of course it's an option so you're free to turn it on in your games and have an ending forced on you and your opponent by the game rather than getting to experience the epic adventure that the full campaign game can bring.

I think you are seeing Kunert's Soviet difficulties and concluding the game is done - but on the contrary the real campaign has yet to begin because the Red Army builds throughout the scenario and southern Russia is vast.




Keunert -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/8/2012 5:17:53 PM)

^you know i start to like you!
a great assessment of the situation.




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 4:27:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver


quote:

ORIGINAL: balto
I think the Dismissal option is great. It does not sneak up on you in the middle of a contested scenario. Based on Olivier's AAR, it arises ONLY when you have clearly beaten your opponent into a bloody heap.


Sadly this is just not the fact. The Germans captured Voronezh by July 7 as you can see from this map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Eastern_Front_1942-05_to_1942-11.png

In Olivier-Kunert AAR it isn't captured until around July 14. The Soviets also took terrifically high losses in June and July 42 leaving their armies in shambles and falling back toward the Don and Volga historically. So Kunert is actually doing as well as the Soviets did historically yet being dismissed. Furthermore I think Kunert is not necessarily losing the game. The Soviets start with only 25% of their total scenario strength on map. The battle has not yet even begun for Kunert.

But of course it's an option so you're free to turn it on in your games and have an ending forced on you and your opponent by the game rather than getting to experience the epic adventure that the full campaign game can bring.

I think you are seeing Kunert's Soviet difficulties and concluding the game is done - but on the contrary the real campaign has yet to begin because the Red Army builds throughout the scenario and southern Russia is vast.


I've been looking for the options but i think vic might have hard coded this instead of calling the endscen() exec. Or maybe it's there and i'm just blind.




bwheatley -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 4:30:58 AM)

Alas it looks like this might be on hold awhile until abulbulian relaxes about it. :) He wanted me to redo T1 since we both assume the random seed isn't generated until after you end a turn but i told him i have no interest in doing that.

So if anyone is looking to play germany i'd be glad to take on a new opponent for a bit. I typically can get to a turn a day though on weekends maybe more. And it's still early in my gaming cycle so i don't foresee a burnout similar to what happened with me and WITE. Well burnout and my son requiring more attention. :)

Abulbulian is a good guy and good opponent but i'm really itching to get some PBEM play with DC2 on with case blue.




Flaviusx -> RE: Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian) (8/9/2012 4:55:54 AM)

The weird thing about this Voronezh business is that it was von Bock who got dismissed in real life for getting sucked into a battle there. Arguably it shouldn't be a German objective at all. It may have even prejudiced the drive down the Don and ultimately Stalingrad.





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