please explain air superiority in 1.02 (Full Version)

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gwgardner -> please explain air superiority in 1.02 (7/26/2012 7:34:28 PM)

from the beta description: Air superiority is now visible, which allows to plan air operations and redirect fighters to protect the sky

Please explain



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/4/2012 5:48:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
from the beta description: Air superiority is now visible, which allows to plan air operations and redirect fighters to protect the sky

Please explain


There is a new button on the mini-map (extreme right button), when selected, it colour codes each hex. Green I guess means you have air superiority, the other colours must mean levels where air superiority is contested.[:)]



gwgardner -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/4/2012 6:45:35 PM)

Thanks for that clue. We're going to need a detailed explanation from Wastelands in order to interpret those colors. I see a rainbow of colors in some areas where I have air units, but none elsewhere. I can also see colored areas deep into enemy territory, where I shouldn't be able to see anything.



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/4/2012 8:49:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Thanks for that clue. We're going to need a detailed explanation from Wastelands in order to interpret those colors. I see a rainbow of colors in some areas where I have air units, but none elsewhere. I can also see colored areas deep into enemy territory, where I shouldn't be able to see anything.


In the map I have selected, from AgentS, almost all the territory (Axis) is mostly green, which I guess means I have air superiority, this goes all the way to the front lines in the East and NA.

The Channel coast is disputed and I see 6 colours, including green, but nothing in enemy territory, with my FOW settings. If you have FOW disabled you see it all.

I can guess some of it, but it would be nice to know what the different colours mean. [:)]




Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/4/2012 9:09:16 PM)

Removed units from the map (hit space), removed FOW for full air picture, Axis superiority dark green, Allied superiority light green, Allied advantage purple, Axis advantage orange, with a light purple area in the middle which I guess is even.

Which is what I will do, hit space, remove FOW, then with a blank map check air superiority, take a SS and then restore the game settings to play on. Should be reasonable as any air force will know where they don't have superiority.

Find SS/print screen useful as you fly recce missions with say Britain, see enemy units in the rear areas, then when US turn starts you have FOW in place again and can't see anything. I wonder if air recce info should hold over through the allied nations turns.[:)]




doomtrader -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/4/2012 10:12:44 PM)

We are still not completely happy with the colors, so this feature need to be tuned up a little bit.
However Rasputitsa explained it pretty good.



gwgardner -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/5/2012 12:30:13 AM)

Thx for the explanation of colors. we also need an explanation of what constitutes contested superiority, etc. What levels of strength on both sides.

Does any presence mean contested space?

If fog of war is on, and one cannot see the nearby enemy, for instance, across the channel, does the air superiority map still show contested?



gwgardner -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/5/2012 5:34:14 AM)

Here's a screenshot of turn 2 in the Barbarossa scenario, I'm Germany. Fog of war is on, but I get the same screenshot if I turn fog of war off.

Makes no sense to me.

[image]local://upfiles/20372/C93BDCA868A6477AB8083131BBD20924.jpg[/image]



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/5/2012 8:35:13 AM)

The image you have posted is what I get with FOW OFF (looking at Barbarrosa), but when I set a visibility range, normally 2 or 3 hexes ( I reduce it in winter turns) I only see the air picture up to that visibility range and no further, so it seems to work OK for me.

As you switch FOW the air picture should change. [&:]



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/5/2012 8:54:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
We are still not completely happy with the colors, so this feature need to be tuned up a little bit.
However Rasputitsa explained it pretty good.


Now I see how it works, I quite like the feature, the existing basic colours look good on the Agent S maps I am using, but I guess they can be modded, so that players can have a set which best matches the maps they prefer to use.[:)]



gwgardner -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/5/2012 4:58:55 PM)

I get the same map, with FOW on or off.

Why is there a patch of German control/contested near Odessa, but nowhere else along the eastern front? I have air units there too.



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/5/2012 5:40:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I get the same map, with FOW on or off.

Why is there a patch of German control/contested near Odessa, but nowhere else along the eastern front? I have air units there too.


I guess there is no contested airspace elsewhere, because the Soviets have no air units on other parts of the front yet, but don't know why you are seeing so far if you have FOW ON (I have 2, or 3 hex visibility set, which is as far as I can see air superiority with FOW ON). I know it's not much help, but I am running 1.02 beta and it seems OK.[&:]



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/5/2012 5:59:24 PM)

Started Barbarossa in 'Quick Start', other games started as 'Custom', moved to turn 2, all seems to work as expected with FOW turned on and off, air superiority display responds as expected. Sorry I cannot replicate the map you have, showing deep into enemy territory with FOW ON, unless some other setting, or mod is overriding the control.[&:]



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/5/2012 6:57:36 PM)

Found it, if you don't have 'FOW display' checked ON in 'Gameplay Preferences', you will see air superiority into the enemy rear areas, irrespective of how you have the main FOW control set.

Not sure if this is WAD, Doomtrader will tell us in a couple of days[:)]



gwgardner -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/5/2012 10:11:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I get the same map, with FOW on or off.

Why is there a patch of German control/contested near Odessa, but nowhere else along the eastern front? I have air units there too.


I guess there is no contested airspace elsewhere, because the Soviets have no air units on other parts of the front yet, but don't know why you are seeing so far if you have FOW ON (I have 2, or 3 hex visibility set, which is as far as I can see air superiority with FOW ON). I know it's not much help, but I am running 1.02 beta and it seems OK.[&:]



You would think if there is no contested space there on the central and northern parts of the Eastern Front, then it would show as German air superiority. yet, it doesn't.



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/6/2012 7:28:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
I get the same map, with FOW on or off.

Why is there a patch of German control/contested near Odessa, but nowhere else along the eastern front? I have air units there too.

I guess there is no contested airspace elsewhere, because the Soviets have no air units on other parts of the front yet, but don't know why you are seeing so far if you have FOW ON (I have 2, or 3 hex visibility set, which is as far as I can see air superiority with FOW ON). I know it's not much help, but I am running 1.02 beta and it seems OK.[&:]


You would think if there is no contested space there on the central and northern parts of the Eastern Front, then it would show as German air superiority. yet, it doesn't.


It shows dark green Axis superiority, up the limit of hexes into enemy territory as set in your FOW settings. If there are no enemy air units present, there is no contested airspace. The only glitch is that if you don't have 'FOW Display' checked ON in your preference screen, you then see light green enemy air superiority deep in areas of enemy territory, regardless of the FOW setting you have (showing where their air units are and negating FOW).

With FOW disabled, it does shows Axis superiority (dark green) over all enemy areas, except those (light green) areas where enemy air units are based, showing that, provided you can reach it, the airspace will be uncontested. That's probably more info than you should have, so I will probably keep FOW set ON.

You can set FOW visibility out to 20 hexes, so that you could check superiority out to any chosen range up to 20, remove units (space bar) so you don't see the ground forces, but check air superiority along the front area without seeing into Siberia.

It seems a flexible and useful tool, when you get the settings right. [:)]



gwgardner -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/7/2012 2:24:58 AM)

ok, it's taken me this long to finally figure out that the air superiority map only highlights areas of contested space. In other words, if one country has air units in a given area but the enemy does not, the map does not highlight that area.



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/7/2012 7:03:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
ok, it's taken me this long to finally figure out that the air superiority map only highlights areas of contested space. In other words, if one country has air units in a given area but the enemy does not, the map does not highlight that area.

That's how it appears, in the map you posted of the Axis side, there is an overall dark green overlay showing uncontested airspace with FOW enabled and 'FOW Display' checked ON, you will only see air superiority data up to the FOW hex limit you have set. The gameplay issue is how to use this tool at longer ranges, as I have normally set FOW at 3 hexes in summer and 2 hexes in winter turns, but air forces work at longer ranges and would have an idea of air response at longer ranges, but it is unrealistic to see where your enemy has based air units all the way to the edge of the map.

I think I will do a air superiority check at the beginning of each turn, with FOW set at some intermediate level (e.g. range of FTR, or para drop)so I see the air situation behind the front, but not too far. Do this with 'units' switched OFF, so as not to negate FOW for the ground situation, maybe take a SS as a record, before putting FOW back to normal to play out the turn.

Main thing is that the Devs have given us a feature that can be adjusted, used to the full, or ignored, players' choice, thanks, nice work. [:)]



Ret44 -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/10/2012 2:28:43 AM)

About hex colours - Air superiority in given hex is determined by strength of all air units in range.

There are six, settable colours (they're saved in ColorAirSuperiorityLevel variables in Info.ini file in scenario folder). Which colour will be chosen depends on ratio of player superiority and enemy superiority.

Player superiority is the sum of strength of all air fighters that belongs to player (or his allies) and which are within range.
Enemy superiority is the sum of strength of all air fighters, and (if we calculating superiority for water hex) aircraft carriers that belongs to enemy (or his allies) and which are within range.

Based on ratio (Player sup./Enemy sup.) the appropriate color is selected:

If ratio = -1 (Enemy superiority equals 0, default colour) -> ColorAirSuperiorityLevel0
If ratio < -1 -> ColorAirSuperiorityLevel0
If -1 < ratio < 1/3 -> ColorAirSuperiorityLevel1 (Major enemy advantage)
If 1/3 < ratio < 1/2 -> ColorAirSuperiorityLevel2 (Minor enemy advantage)
If 1/2 < ratio < 2 -> ColorAirSuperiorityLevel3
If 2 < ratio < 3 -> ColorAirSuperiorityLevel4 (Minor player advantage)
If ratio > 3 -> ColorAirSuperiorityLevel5 (Major player advantage)

Colours are saved in hex triplet format.



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/10/2012 8:10:33 AM)

Thanks, well that certainly gets into the nuts and bolts of it.[:)]



Meteor2 -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/18/2012 8:42:40 AM)

And what about having only TWO colours for the different levels (e. g., lets say from light green = weak supremacy to dark green = strong supremacy for axis and light red = weak supremacy to dark red = strong supremacy for allies).

At the moment it is very messy.



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/18/2012 11:57:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

And what about having only TWO colours for the different levels (e. g., lets say from light green = weak supremacy to dark green = strong supremacy for axis and light red = weak supremacy to dark red = strong supremacy for allies).

At the moment it is very messy.


I suppose if one side has 'weak supremacy', that would mean the other side has strong supremacy (if they have fighters based nearby) so is that light green, or dark red. I have become used to the present system and, as always, I would prefer that alternatives might be made available (probably through mods), rather than have lose what has already been provided.

Either way, Doomtrader has noted that this is a first try and open to review.[:)]



Hairog -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/18/2012 8:11:51 PM)

I have been advocating for air superiority for some time...now what does that mean in game terms? Does it only affect other air units? Does it affect para units and how? Does it affect naval search? How about stopping an invasion fleet? Convoys have more losses?

The big one should be that it slows up ground movement by interdiction. This was a huge factor in France 1940, the German reaction to D-Day and of course the Battle of the Bulge. Anything that moved was killed by roving fighter bombers and Stukas. It would add to the strategic use of air power tremendously and force good players to really use combined arms tactics, think about the proper use of airpower as well as add a new dimension found in no other WWII strategic simulation.



Agent S -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/19/2012 1:40:02 AM)

@Rasp, will mod to whatever color code, (or perhaps small appropriate symbol) you wish.
I'm assuming the colours are from the others.png file.



Meteor2 -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/19/2012 7:28:27 AM)

No. My idea was to have then a "neutral" zone (maybe in gray) between the light colours. No kind of supremacy is achived there.



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/19/2012 7:28:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Agent S
@Rasp, will mod to whatever color code, (or perhaps small appropriate symbol) you wish.
I'm assuming the colours are from the others.png file.


I am using your classic map from the standard preference selection (using the B&W version for winter turns, nicely matches snowy weather) and the present air superiority display looks good on these maps.

I personally am not asking for any changes yet, as need to get used to it first, but expect that your modding talents will give some good options. [:)]



Agent S -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/20/2012 5:11:06 AM)

[:D] You're raising the bar, only hoping I can clear it. (unlike our Aus. pole-vaulter!)



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (8/20/2012 8:51:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Agent S
[:D] You're raising the bar, only hoping I can clear it. (unlike our Aus. pole-vaulter!)


There is only one good use for a bar and that is for ordering the drinks. I think we were all a little surprised how well 'Team GB' did, but we had many memories of embarrassments at the hands of the Aussies to drive us on.[;)]

In ToF I am using your Retro map for summer turns and the B+W version for winter turns, both adapted with the SoP sea zone and port colours/icons, the overall effect is excellent. You certainly get Gold for that achievement.[:D]



gwgardner -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (10/10/2012 9:21:33 PM)

Just spent about 2 hours with 1.03 on this, and come to these conclusions: we need more clarification from the programmer concerning the comparison of what he calls 'player superiority' vs 'enemy superiority.' And his use of the term 'ratio.' He mentions a ratio of -1, and that makes no sense at all.



Rasputitsa -> RE: please explain air superiority in 1.02 (10/11/2012 1:06:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
Just spent about 2 hours with 1.03 on this, and come to these conclusions: air superiority coloring doesn't work as advertised. This is definitely going to need work for 1.04. As it is now, I can see no way to make use of this feature.


Haven't been able to get to grips with this yet, as I have been re-installing the visual mods I prefer to use and preparing scenarios, before I can get a new game going in 1.03. I am using '1944 Gotterdammerung' as the basis for a scenario starting in December 1943, to make a more realistic preparation period for amphibious operations in 1944.

1.03 still carries over the errors in the basic scenarios, the Channel Islands are held by Britain (in 1944 ?) and are unfortified and the Dutch coast needs a higher level of fortification, not because of defence construction, but the ability to quickly flood the area gives the potential for water defences better than anything the Atlantic Wall could have done.

The editor has been a challenging experience, but I seem to be making progress, removing the Anzio landing, etc.

I had thought air superiority worked as advertised, but I wasn't so sure about its use in the game, naval superiority is another issue in 1.03, which could be a problem. The defender has to keep ships in sea areas to maintain naval superiority, to negate amphibious landing attempts. Staying at sea, especially in the Channel, they are at considerable attrition risk, the potential attacker merely has to wait and can pop in a landing any time and any where they like.

It may be some time before I can work up to the action part of the game, but looking forward to it a lot.



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