A few reasons to buy (Full Version)

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redmarkus4 -> A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 7:18:47 PM)

After one day playing WitE I concluded that game was unfit for release and seriously flawed.

After one afternoon with DC Op Blau, I consider this new edition in the DC series to be a real gem.

The game has as much depth and subtle complexity as WitE, but the decisions the player has to wrestle with are genuine military decisions, reflecting the challenges faced by the historical commanders, rather than technical game-related exploits and choices that have no counterpart in the real world.

The flow of the game is excellent and the AI appears to have been very cleverly and effectively coded.

Modding also seems to be properly supported, allowing us to tailor the game to our personal likes and the editor means that we can look out for numerous user scenarios in the coming years.

Finally, unlike WitE, the creator (Vic) makes regular appearances here, answers questions and provides clarifications regarding design features, decisions and the game road map. Hats off to him.

I say buy this game. If you enjoy operational level east front war games, you are unlikely to be disappointed and I sense that this series is set to become the Operational Art of War of the current decade.




TAIL_GUNNER -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 7:29:47 PM)

You sold me...WitE has turned me off as well...


Can I borrow 40$?[8D]




Volsung -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 7:46:15 PM)

I was about already sold but after reading the feedback so far I am itching to pull the trigger. Still waiting for my regular email buddy to jump in as well but at this point I will most likely buy it regardless.




Keunert -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 7:56:12 PM)

Another point is the new pbem server, making human vs human games so much easier. So far Vic's support of DC1 and Advanced Tactics was excellent. And Advanced Tactics also has the benefit of a lot of very commited and talented scenario designers. i can only hope that some of them will use the editor with this one too.




Korzun -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 8:20:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

After one day playing WitE I concluded that game was unfit for release and seriously flawed.

After one afternoon with DC Op Blau, I consider this new edition in the DC series to be a real gem.

The game has as much depth and subtle complexity as WitE, but the decisions the player has to wrestle with are genuine military decisions, reflecting the challenges faced by the historical commanders, rather than technical game-related exploits and choices that have no counterpart in the real world.

The flow of the game is excellent and the AI appears to have been very cleverly and effectively coded.

Modding also seems to be properly supported, allowing us to tailor the game to our personal likes and the editor means that we can look out for numerous user scenarios in the coming years.

Finally, unlike WitE, the creator (Vic) makes regular appearances here, answers questions and provides clarifications regarding design features, decisions and the game road map. Hats off to him.

I say buy this game. If you enjoy operational level east front war games, you are unlikely to be disappointed and I sense that this series is set to become the Operational Art of War of the current decade.


+1[;)]




EisenHammer -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 8:44:52 PM)


Can we please chill out on WitE. And just give good reason for getting this game. Because all this trashing of WitE is actually turning me off from getting DC OP BLAU.




redmarkus4 -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 8:53:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


Can we please chill out on WitE. And just give good reason for getting this game. Because all this trashing of WitE is actually turning me off from getting DC OP BLAU.


If they had accepted the complaints as valid and given some convincing indications that real lessons have been learned and are being incorporated into WitW, then maybe. But they haven't, so why should we? WitE was an expensive game and the developers behaved badly, I feel.




Keunert -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 9:13:14 PM)

you will enjoy DC Case Blue on its own merits and i think that there will be a lot of players end with owning and liking both of them.




Dale H -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 10:09:21 PM)

+1. I have enjoyed & will continue to enjoy GG WitE. It is a great game. I find it a bit grognard but I am intellectually challenged & it is not the game's fault. I have enjoyed DC & am looking forward to Case Blue. We are fortunate to have two great games to play. Get both!





kemmo -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 10:17:00 PM)

+2 got both,enjoy playing both.




fthein -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 10:17:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dale H

+1. I have enjoyed & will continue to enjoy GG WitE. It is a great game. I find it a bit grognard but I am intellectually challenged & it is not the game's fault. I have enjoyed DC & am looking forward to Case Blue. We are fortunate to have two great games to play. Get both!




+1[:)]




WilliePete -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 10:32:26 PM)

It's good to see some of the more well known people from WitE in this forum. I couldn't agree with you more! CB is an awesome game and it deserves all the attention it can get!

Once I get a little more time behind the wheel, I'd like to get a game going with you, red.




NavalNewZ -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 11:17:05 PM)

"The game has as much depth and subtle complexity as WitE, but the decisions the player has to wrestle with are genuine military decisions, reflecting the challenges faced by the historical commanders, rather than technical game-related exploits and choices that have no counterpart in the real world. "
Sums it up for me. Thanks for your comments markus





gabeeg -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/17/2012 11:38:43 PM)

I like and play WitE as well but DC:CB is what I want to play in an operational East Front game. For me I feel the GG and team got trapped behind the amount of detail and it was too cumbersome to make changes/fixes without effecting the surrounding or dependent parts, throwing things out of balance. DC:CB is a good example that good, well done abstraction can actually lead to not only a more playable and enjoyable game but a more realistic game....of course this IMHO.

I don't want to bash WitE either...but I would like to discuss what makes people enjoy these games more or less than the other and why that is...is there a concensus or just personal tastes?




EdinHouston -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 12:10:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


Can we please chill out on WitE. And just give good reason for getting this game. Because all this trashing of WitE is actually turning me off from getting DC OP BLAU.


If they had accepted the complaints as valid and given some convincing indications that real lessons have been learned and are being incorporated into WitW, then maybe. But they haven't, so why should we? WitE was an expensive game and the developers behaved badly, I feel.


Please dont bring issues like that to this game's forum. That is something that belongs in the WitE forum, if anywhere. Lets dont use this game as yet another excuse to vent about WitE. In any event this game has out for one day, how about we wait with comparisons about which developer listens and which doesnt.




DBeves -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 12:26:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gabeeg

I like and play WitE as well but DC:CB is what I want to play in an operational East Front game. For me I feel the GG and team got trapped behind the amount of detail and it was too cumbersome to make changes/fixes without effecting the surrounding or dependent parts, throwing things out of balance. DC:CB is a good example that good, well done abstraction can actually lead to not only a more playable and enjoyable game but a more realistic game....of course this IMHO.

I don't want to bash WitE either...but I would like to discuss what makes people enjoy these games more or less than the other and why that is...is there a concensus or just personal tastes?

quote:

what makes people enjoy these


Agree totally with that - I like detail but it has to be presented correctly - and most importantly it has to be understandable to the person playing it. To my mind Grigsby over engineers his products to the point where whilst detailed they fail to present themselves in a way thats understandable to people who dont want to have to put in an insane amount of work figuring things out that the game cant show them. Therefore what you end up with is a lot of people buying his games cause they like the thought of it but in reality only a minute hardcore actually playing them. WiTE was a little different in that I think it was poorly done in that the code had sat around untouched for years and then picked up again.




EisenHammer -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 12:28:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NavalNewZ
"The game has as much depth and subtle complexity as WitE, but the decisions the player has to wrestle with are genuine military decisions, reflecting the challenges faced by the historical commanders, rather than technical game-related exploits and choices that have no counterpart in the real world. "


quote:

ORIGINAL: gabeeg
DC:CB is a good example that good, well done abstraction can actually lead to not only a more playable and enjoyable game but a more realistic game....of course this IMHO.


Damn… I don't know how much longer I can resist. Is the game really that freaking good?




sandman2575 -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 12:39:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Damn… I don't know how much longer I can resist. Is the game really that freaking good?




Yes.

Put it this way -- if you like WitE (as I gather from your post), you will probably like Case Blue. I'd say "almost certainly like" it, but who knows. I find WitE lacking in a lot of departments and almost never return to it. DC Blitzkrieg from Warsaw to Paris sucked me in in a way WitE never even approached. Case Blue is richer, more detailed, more sophisticated. I almost never buy games on first day release, but Case Blue is one I definitely did.




parusski -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 12:46:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


Can we please chill out on WitE. And just give good reason for getting this game. Because all this trashing of WitE is actually turning me off from getting DC OP BLAU.


If they had accepted the complaints as valid and given some convincing indications that real lessons have been learned and are being incorporated into WitW, then maybe. But they haven't, so why should we? WitE was an expensive game and the developers behaved badly, I feel.


I personally agree with you redmarkus4, and I think you have every right to post any thoughts you have about WitE vs...anything else.


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

Damn… I don't know how much longer I can resist. Is the game really that freaking good?


Yeah, it is that DAMN good. sandman2575 is right that the game is richer and more detailed than WitE. At $40 Case Blue is one halluva deal.




sandman2575 -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 12:55:01 AM)

I think I meant to imply that Case Blue is richer, more sophisticated than Warsaw to Paris. I don't want to bash WitE -- I think it's definitely possible to be a fan of both GG's and Vic's efforts and to enjoy both -- no need for it to be one OR the other. Anyway, in that spirit, if you are a fan of WitE, I can't imagine that you will be disappointed by Case Blue or WtP.




parusski -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 1:02:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman2575

I think I meant to imply that Case Blue is richer, more sophisticated than Warsaw to Paris. I don't want to bash WitE -- I think it's definitely possible to be a fan of both GG's and Vic's efforts and to enjoy both -- no need for it to be one OR the other. Anyway, in that spirit, if you are a fan of WitE, I can't imagine that you will be disappointed by Case Blue or WtP.


Yes you did. Sorry, did not mean to infer something other than what you implied. I hate when people do that.




Rosseau -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 1:08:36 AM)

Exactly Sandman. WitE is pricey but I enjoyed it immensely in the first few months. The problem is, with all the patches and changes, I am afraid to go back to it - too much to re-learn. That's not the case with Case Blue. The editor is already familiar from Advanced Tactics and working for me. But neither will I bash Joel and team. He had been quite responsive on the forums when I was there.




parusski -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 1:12:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

Exactly Sandman. WitE is pricey but I enjoyed it immensely in the first few months. The problem is, with all the patches and changes, I am afraid to go back to it - too much to re-learn. That's not the case with Case Blue. The editor is already familiar from Advanced Tactics and working for me. But neither will I bash Joel and team. He had been quite responsive on the forums when I was there.


All valid rosseau. I bought WitE on day one and still enjoy it.

But we are talking "...reasons to buy" Case Blue.

My reason is IT IS FUN.




radic202 -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 1:13:17 AM)


At first I was going to purchase it as I already own Warsaw to Paris and nothing I like more than to encourage the Dev to continue making games of this genre. Then the more I thought, ahhhh...I have had it to here with war games that occur on the eastern front (heck why I am looking forward to Afrika Corps expansion)(I realize that they are 2 separate types of games of different format) but just can't fathom playing that so called Eastern Front again and again and again. Know I fully understand it's significance plus it was one hell of a battle with different complexities, strategies from both sides, large cities under siege, large evacuations and annihilation of armies etc...Just can't be redone in the same scope anywhere else but on the Eastern Front! God what I would do for a game like this with WitE format but in the West or Italy or heck Africa!

But now after reading these PLUS's here from everyone, I guess the Eastern Front is not that bad after all!




Webizen -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 1:31:04 AM)

If you don't already own it, you might like to checkout Vic's Advanced Tactics Gold. With it excellent random game generator, you can create all type of games. Vic has stated he plans some improvements to the random game generator. Might see that occur in next month, two or three.

quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202

... what I would do for a game like this with WitE format but in the West or Italy or heck Africa!






jjdenver -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 1:40:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer
Can we please chill out on WitE. And just give good reason for getting this game. Because all this trashing of WitE is actually turning me off from getting DC OP BLAU.


I think ppl are still ticked that they paid so much for WITE and the dev team has failed so miserably. I guess different people have different pain points but for me the "unit carpet" syndrome really just makes the game a joke. So I think it deserves some beating.

Anyway, I hear your request but really WITE deserves the smashing.

As for this game, get it or not as you like but I like it so far.




radic202 -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 1:56:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Webizen

If you don't already own it, you might like to checkout Vic's Advanced Tactics Gold. With it excellent random game generator, you can create all type of games. Vic has stated he plans some improvements to the random game generator. Might see that occur in next month, two or three.

quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202

... what I would do for a game like this with WitE format but in the West or Italy or heck Africa!






Thanks for the recommendation, I already own it and totally forgot I had it as I cleaned up my Desktop about 5 months ago and forgot to re-link the Icon to play the game. I will get back into that game real soon but in the mean time..............Case blue it is.




jazman -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 2:55:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


Can we please chill out on WitE. And just give good reason for getting this game. Because all this trashing of WitE is actually turning me off from getting DC OP BLAU.


redmarkus' badmouthing WitE keep you from buying Case Blue? Are you kidding me??




EisenHammer -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 3:22:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jazman


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


Can we please chill out on WitE. And just give good reason for getting this game. Because all this trashing of WitE is actually turning me off from getting DC OP BLAU.


redmarkus' badmouthing WitE keep you from buying Case Blue? Are you kidding me??


Yeah… and I guess you got a problem with that.[8|]

Seriously… I don't care. Redmarkus can say whatever he wants about WitE.
I just want to find out what good about this game. And trashing WitE is not helping as they are both different games.




EisenHammer -> RE: A few reasons to buy (7/18/2012 3:29:14 AM)


Just one question. How Is the single player part of the game. I don't care about the MP part or exploits of the game only the AI and SP.




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