RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (Full Version)

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Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (8/26/2012 7:17:01 PM)

Turn 27
German Arm PTs in pool= 90,000
German Manpower in pool= 186,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed After Oct 1941 = 62 Rifle+1 tank Div / 3 brigades / 0 Corp
Russian losses this turn: 92,000 Total dead: 3,417,000
Russian OOB: 5,406,000
A net gain of: -6,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 18
German losses this turn: 90,000 Total dead: 862,000
GHC OOB: 3,069,000
GHC net OOB change: -142,000

Retreats: 47
Helds: 6
Routes: 4
Scouts: 1

Totals for Blizzard:
SHC total dead 199,000
GHC total dead 176,000

So far so good, no surrendered units and SHC losses higher then GHC. Anything during December less then 100,000 is good.


AGN: I have not lost a single hex north of the Fin line. 18th army is moving to support 16th so line will be very strong come January. We have 3 rail lines so sullpys are not an issue for us, but is for them.

This area can be used a spring board for offensive operation to the se come summer.

16th and 9th army with draw 1 to 2 hexes in the bulge area.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/C45145EF919644FA9E1C996F860BBD33.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (8/26/2012 7:17:57 PM)

AGC: GHC with draws 2 hexes

[image]local://upfiles/20387/BC7C84C80C2C427DA5D9A64FD2B66B2A.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (8/26/2012 7:21:59 PM)

AGS: GHC last turn trouble started and this turn its getting bad. Things are fine in Crimea and near Stalino, but north and south of Kharkov the 2 Cav armys have major pressure on and I will probably have to cut my losses next turn.

I screwwed up last turn ans should have just left 2 divisions behind for the good of the Fatherland, but I didn't.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/C8750AB3D76C43689D87FFC9D09425F1.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (8/26/2012 7:27:57 PM)

Turn 28
German Arm PTs in pool= 78,000
German Manpower in pool= 237,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed After Oct 1941 = 62 Rifle+1 tank Div / 3 brigades / 0 Corp
Russian losses this turn: 82,000 Total dead: 3,500,000
Russian OOB: 5,506,000
A net gain of: 100,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 18
German losses this turn: 85,000 Total dead: 957,000
GHC OOB: 2,942,000
GHC net OOB change: -132,000

Retreats: 54
Helds: 14
Routes: 0
Scouts: 0

Totals for Blizzard:
SHC total dead 281,000
GHC total dead 261,000

This is the last major turn of Blizzard and I had to cut my loses and leave 7 divisions behind.

AGN: 2 Infantry divisions from 9th army are left behind. The rest of the front is solid and should be ok as of January 1st. I was lucky to on have lost 2 units in that bulge as it is. Leningrad is still holding out, but with no hope of releaf this winter.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/374CBA0ECA38495A80E847C622A980B7.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (8/26/2012 7:30:02 PM)

AGC leaves 2 divisions behind, but line should be stable now. GHC will keep with drawing 2 hexes a turn for a while. GHC was able to pull several more panzer units from the front for rest and refit.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/B15F7AD0A7C44B67B69F76BF6376ACA5.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (8/26/2012 7:35:59 PM)

AGS 3 infantry and 1 panzer division is left to thier fates.

To try and regain control of things 3 panzer divisions are moved to the front from winter rest and refit. Stalino forses move into their forts and units are withdrawn 20 miles from any russian units.

Looks like Stalino will have to be given back to SHC shortly. Which is ok we just take it back in summer for a double hit to manpower.



[image]local://upfiles/20387/0CFD454AC15647E69EA71A413A471F64.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (8/26/2012 7:45:15 PM)

I think the AP hit from the November losses hurt SHC as there doesn't appear to be that many units near the front as in other 1.06 game I have going on.

Table is set in the north and center for now.
The south is still not under control which is completely my fault. Bobo has done a very good job using his Cav armys.

After some testing TDV winter O got nerfed when the logistic patch was put in a few patchs ago. I can simulate his amazing winter O before the supply/muling nerf, but not after it.

The HQ only keeps so much fuel on hand now. So no more 2 turns of high MP's and then muling or air drops.

A huge huge relief for me and all GHC players. No more lossing 50 German units during blizzard.

Just retreat a few hexes a turn( dont screw up like me) and losses should be kept under 10 divisions np. zero is not out of the question if the SHC doesn't know how to make up cav armys the right way.

The land you give back will easly be recovered and 2x manpower hits for manpower points over run.

Morale is king and if things go good you have almost all of GHC at 70+ morale and your 9 85-90 morale infantry and 9-12 high morale panzer units.




Farfarer -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (8/27/2012 12:26:17 AM)

So true about Morale ratings being so important. Another Pelton Point ( trademark) is how Axis Infantry just can't seem to recover once the casulaties mount. I wanted to test this in my game with M60 - and I concur - the tipping point is just that. Lots of Tigers charging about, but no Landsers.




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (8/29/2012 11:27:26 AM)

Start of Blizzard.

Turn 25 Bobo
German Arm PTs in pool= 82,000
German Manpower in pool= 57,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed After Oct 1941 = 62 Rifle+1 tank Div / 3 brigades / 0 Corp
Russian losses this turn: ,000 Total dead: 3,218,000
Russian OOB: 5,222,000
A net gain of: 82,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 18
German losses this turn: ,000 Total dead: 686,000
GHC OOB: 3,333,000
GHC net OOB change: ,000

Turn 25 Hugh
German Arm PTs in pool= 145,000
German Manpower in pool= 67,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: ,000 Total dead: 2,514,000
Russian OOB: 6,000,000
A net gain of: ,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,387,000
GHC net OOB change: ,000




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/1/2012 10:31:48 PM)

Turn 29
German Arm PTs in pool= 68,000
German Manpower in pool= 286,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed After Oct 1941 = 64 Rifle + 2 tank Div / 4 brigades / 0 Corp
Russian losses this turn: 87,000 Total dead: 3,587,000
Russian OOB: 5,536,000
A net gain of: 36,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 9
German losses this turn: 98,000 Total dead: 1,055,000
GHC OOB: 2,921,000
GHC net OOB change: -21,000

Retreats: 29
Helds: 8
Routes: 0
Scouts: 0

Totals for Blizzard:
SHC total dead 368,000
GHC total dead 359,000

Tempo has dropped way off. Now with a little better weather we shall see what happens. I have only seen 1 guard unit so far this winter.

AGN: I Corps Leningrad takes a hex and the rest of Leningrad will fall next turn and Fins will be able to attack. This area will be solid as a rock for the rest of blizzard. I Corp and 4th PZ have been wintering in Leningrad.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/2B3FA56E1369425FAAB1133DF2734982.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/1/2012 10:33:15 PM)

AGC keep pulling back 2 hexes a turn. It looks like leaving those 7 units behind was the right thing to do. NEVER THROUGH GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/A196395A990D44B587317A92D39CACEA.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/1/2012 10:35:52 PM)

Stalino will have to be given up. Near Kharkov SHC has very strong cav forses that still will have a chance to bag a few more units. This is only area of front I have any consern about now, but 5 PZ divisions arrive to sure things up. I hope.



[image]local://upfiles/20387/D4CC0D22897E4CE590D23477E215D2F7.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/5/2012 2:26:47 AM)

Turn 30
German Arm PTs in pool= 68,000
German Manpower in pool= 286,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed After Oct 1941 = 65 Rifle + 2 tank Div / 5 brigades / 0 Corp
Russian losses this turn: 81,000 Total dead: 3,664,000
Russian OOB: 5,570,000
A net gain of: 33,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 3
German losses this turn: 103,000 Total dead: 1,158,000
GHC OOB: 2,934,000
GHC net OOB change: 13,000

Retreats: 20
Helds: 13
Routes: 0
Scouts: 0

Totals for Blizzard:
SHC total dead 449,000
GHC total dead 462,000

I have only seen 2 Guards(cav) units so far. Only 203 retreats total or 30 per turn, very low for blizzard. Other then my one screw up turn, been and easy blizzard so far. Russian losses are higher then German so far.
German infantry morale is doing good so far, because of the low tempo of attacks. Bobo has the best possible set up, but I am just retreating. The key for me is to keep his infantry morale from rising. Its just not possible for it to riase much because mech and cav are doing most of the attacks. As can be seen there is zero possible way for the German army not to get 100% wiped out if you try and stand and fight vs a SHC player that knows how to use the Cav exploit. Until this exploit is nerfed GHC are forsed to run in most areas or get crushed.

WITE should be about fighting forward not SHC runs east then chases GHC in winter then runs east ect ect. This is not Dancing with the Stars is it?

AGN: Leningrad has 3 rifle divisions left that will get wiped next turn. I have 9 infantry and 8 panzer divisions at 85+ morale and 100% toe waiting for Febuary to roll around.

Lines are holding where I want in north.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/CD3E5CE1B8B348FD84A20DD4021C18A1.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/5/2012 2:38:01 AM)

AGC: just retreating 2 hexes a turn. Same same. Supply lines are getting long for SHC 150 miles to Dec start line. I have played vs this in 3 other games. TDV tactic has been nerfed so that result is not a factor other then the truck issue come mud, he won the game. The other 2 games SHC was unable to pocket more then a few units and the result come snow and mud were interesting. TDV results were same, but he had pocketed 50 divisions so I was unable to finish him off in time ect ect.

There is a cost if SHC mobile units push to far, but I think Bobo beleives the blizzard is his only chance to recover from the large AP crunch thats alrdy started and is pushing it.

The losses appear to be even, but as Flaviusx and some others know most of the german "losses" are tempory. Frost bite ect.

Bobo appears to be a very skilled SHC player as he knows all the tricks. With a million less men hes doing better then Hugh. I am looking forward to snow :)



[image]local://upfiles/20387/2BA47B92F79C454FA6D13580557DA043.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/5/2012 2:44:43 AM)

AGS: SHC is still a threat in south, unlike center and north that are kinda dead now.

Several infantry and 4 panzer units are on the way. SHC is still hitting hard, but the thrusts are 1 or 2 hexes at a very narrow point. Not enough to cut poeple off yet. The winter ball is 1/2 over, Febuary is kinda a stalemate now, unless SHC has the Snow Ball Effect going which Bobo doesn't have any more.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/B2CD509C507E4BD3A64322B16D1353A8.jpg[/image]




bigbaba -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/5/2012 3:22:07 AM)

his cavalery is dangerous but you do a very well job. i see extremly few guards units. you simply give him no chance to attack and gain wins.




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/6/2012 3:57:57 AM)

Turn 31
German Arm PTs in pool= 47,000
German Manpower in pool= 303,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed After Oct 1941 = 68 Rifle + 2 tank Div / 5 brigades / 0 Corp
Total AP lost: 725 [sm=fighting0056.gif]
Russian losses this turn: 104,000 Total dead: 3,768,000
Russian OOB: 5,548,000
A net gain of: -22,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 0
German losses this turn: 75,000 Total dead: 1,233,000
GHC OOB: 2,926,000
GHC net OOB change: -8,000

Retreats: 29
Helds: 13
Routes: 0
Scouts: 0

Totals for Blizzard:
SHC total dead 553,000
GHC total dead 537,000

SHC has more dead then GHC. Also SHC is burning up some mad trucks and is very far from railheads I am guessing next month will be a killer for them. Vs TDV I was able to get allot of surrenders for being out of supply come mud and snow.

Bobo was very smart to kill off 1 or 2 divisions at a time each turn. This is a little gamey, but what it does is sucks up 75% + of the 30,000 replacements a turn. So the front line units get weaker and weaker even though it might be January parts of the front line are as weak as December. At some point 2by3 should fix this crap as the same thing happens to SHC from turns 1017. Anyways I was able to stop the bleeding an front line troops will be getting stronger now as no more units are cut off (yet).



[image]local://upfiles/20387/781987468F934D368AB098F26C248748.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/6/2012 3:58:48 AM)

south

[image]local://upfiles/20387/3CA63A4088664CFFA12444B0FE3D9CE9.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/9/2012 9:39:22 PM)

Turn 32
German Arm PTs in pool= 46,000
German Manpower in pool= 297,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed After Oct 1941 = 68 Rifle + 2 tank Div / 5 brigades / 0 Corp
Total AP lost: 725
Russian losses this turn: 55,000 Total dead: 3,823,000
Russian OOB: 5,548,000
A net gain of: 65,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 0
German losses this turn: 53,000 Total dead: 1,286,000
GHC OOB: 2,936,000
GHC net OOB change: 10,000

Retreats: 32
Helds: 13
Routes: 0
Scouts: 0

Totals for Blizzard:
SHC total dead 608,000
GHC total dead 590,000


AGN:

[image]local://upfiles/20387/19827E1204954EE2A01AB325EBD1890D.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/9/2012 9:40:11 PM)

AGC

[image]local://upfiles/20387/01D4B7E4D9B24AC19622D4947E3B6577.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/9/2012 9:40:38 PM)

AGS

[image]local://upfiles/20387/A615C4EF944242808FF392FB19752064.jpg[/image]




hfarrish -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/9/2012 10:57:24 PM)


I would bet his units are pretty much shells by the time he halts - even in our game (where I did not press as hard / far) the rail lines were a b**** for sometime, and he can't afford to be building a bunch of new RR brigades...you could be setting up for a very nice counter strike.




Farfarer -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/10/2012 4:50:41 AM)

I'm still curious what the advantage is of 'losing' 600K troops in a gradual withdrawal is compared to just returning to Poland and a fortified Leningrad? You know you can retake it all in 1942, especially if the SHC pushes past the Dniepr. I am seriously missing something ( a few screws perhaps?) I guess.




janh -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/10/2012 9:22:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
I'm still curious what the advantage is of 'losing' 600K troops in a gradual withdrawal is compared to just returning to Poland and a fortified Leningrad? You know you can retake it all in 1942, especially if the SHC pushes past the Dniepr. I am seriously missing something ( a few screws perhaps?) I guess.


You mean the Wehrmacht pulling all the way back to Poland by December 1941? I would expect this would lead to a hilarious situation, and one not at all benefiting the German side.

If I were the Russian opponent, I would send only a small fraction of my forces after the Wehrmacht back up to the border, likely mostly cavalry, a few armored brigades and whatever I else can spare, probably everything set to only 70% ToE. The goal would be to flip all the hexes, destroy the converted railroads again, and put up a speed bump so the Wehrmacht won't quickly roll back to the last MBTL (say typically sthg like Leningrad-Moscow-Voroshilovgrad-Rostov). A delay until May would already be bad for Axis, but even if the speed bumps slow Axis progress a little for only 3-4 turns after the blizzard penalties end by March, they will be taking at least until August to get the hexes flipped back and, importantly, the railroads repaired again.

So I would assume an Axis player could not start launching a serious 2nd summer offensive before September 42 and would find the Russians entrenched in level 3-4 in about the area of the previous winter, but corrected for better terrain and now entrenched in depth. And all the while training on "refit" and prepping unmolested. Axis will likely face a Red Army that is reshaping faster than usual, although it will itself be substantially stronger as well. But come summer 43, even if Axis manages an offensive, it will lack much time of building its own defensive it could have build since 41. I think this strategy would fling back at the Wehrmacht badly. Once it has the bear by its throat, it better shouldn't let go even if the outcome is almost clear.




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/10/2012 10:35:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


I would bet his units are pretty much shells by the time he halts - even in our game (where I did not press as hard / far) the rail lines were a b**** for sometime, and he can't afford to be building a bunch of new RR brigades...you could be setting up for a very nice counter strike.


I have started counter attacking in February vs stacks of 3 and they generally route, allot of units in low supplie at front.

But I do have areas of the front that are hurting to be sure with morale around 60. Other areas the infantry morale is still at 70+ because they never got attacked once.

We are about to start snow turns so we shall see.




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/10/2012 10:39:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

I'm still curious what the advantage is of 'losing' 600K troops in a gradual withdrawal is compared to just returning to Poland and a fortified Leningrad? You know you can retake it all in 1942, especially if the SHC pushes past the Dniepr. I am seriously missing something ( a few screws perhaps?) I guess.



The key to game is manpower centers. 600k in loses for GHC is a light winter.

Also if you totally withdraw you have to rebuild rails. The high water mark is only one HQB way if I can punch a hole in lines.

The rivers are frooze over during snow, so NP pushing past them or any other rivers for that matter during March.

The spring sets up the summer. GHC is only 150ish miles from Moscow in north.




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/10/2012 10:43:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
I'm still curious what the advantage is of 'losing' 600K troops in a gradual withdrawal is compared to just returning to Poland and a fortified Leningrad? You know you can retake it all in 1942, especially if the SHC pushes past the Dniepr. I am seriously missing something ( a few screws perhaps?) I guess.


You mean the Wehrmacht pulling all the way back to Poland by December 1941? I would expect this would lead to a hilarious situation, and one not at all benefiting the German side.

If I were the Russian opponent, I would send only a small fraction of my forces after the Wehrmacht back up to the border, likely mostly cavalry, a few armored brigades and whatever I else can spare, probably everything set to only 70% ToE. The goal would be to flip all the hexes, destroy the converted railroads again, and put up a speed bump so the Wehrmacht won't quickly roll back to the last MBTL (say typically sthg like Leningrad-Moscow-Voroshilovgrad-Rostov). A delay until May would already be bad for Axis, but even if the speed bumps slow Axis progress a little for only 3-4 turns after the blizzard penalties end by March, they will be taking at least until August to get the hexes flipped back and, importantly, the railroads repaired again.

So I would assume an Axis player could not start launching a serious 2nd summer offensive before September 42 and would find the Russians entrenched in level 3-4 in about the area of the previous winter, but corrected for better terrain and now entrenched in depth. And all the while training on "refit" and prepping unmolested. Axis will likely face a Red Army that is reshaping faster than usual, although it will itself be substantially stronger as well. But come summer 43, even if Axis manages an offensive, it will lack much time of building its own defensive it could have build since 41. I think this strategy would fling back at the Wehrmacht badly. Once it has the bear by its throat, it better shouldn't let go even if the outcome is almost clear.



Allot of the SHC 43 offensive depends on if they have any exp building the right stuff.

I have played vs huge 8 to 9 million men armys in 42 that were very easly pocketed and totally wiped out by the end of summer. And played vs 5.5 to 6.5 million men armys that I had a bitch of a time with in 42.




janh -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/10/2012 10:52:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Allot of the SHC 43 offensive depends on if they have any exp building the right stuff.

I have played vs huge 8 to 9 million men armys in 42 that were very easly pocketed and totally wiped out by the end of summer. And played vs 5.5 to 6.5 million men armys that I had a bitch of a time with in 42.


Naturally it should. A I tend to agree with what you are saying (and other said a long time before): The freedom building and shaping the Red Army is only a felt advantage in many cases. There is a large potential to built the wrong elements, and end up worse, but since the historical Red Army was much larger than what one can achieve with APs (expectation as based on typical losses in summer 41, else of course a bit stronger or weaker), you basically can't do better. Worse, all this building competes with all the other AP holes, from reorganizations to leader assignments and plane changes. I would guess that a historical reinforcement/withdrawal schedule like Axis would much benefit the Russians.

So it would be foolish to let the Red Army camp around Moscow for 6 month allowed to train, refit and dig trench lines 4 deep and 4 high. Though I think the AP crunch you are presently hunting in your games is not game-determining, it sure will require the Soviet player to accept more compromises with poorer leaders, building less, or more chaos in C&C. Much like a poor truck pool worsens things, but doesn't kill you. In the end I think all comes down to Manpower. That of course would also be foolish to return to the Soviets for a winter and spring.




Farfarer -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/10/2012 12:25:06 PM)

Thanks. I've tried the total withdrawal vs humans. The Red Army is stronger, but no Guards, no morale increases due to combat. The Spring 1942 Ostheer is truly impressive - but has a long way to go.




Flaviusx -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (9/10/2012 1:13:52 PM)

Farfarer, your runaway to Poland strategy is about as loopy as, well, what you are doing in your game with M60.




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