Peltons vs Bobo 1.06.13+ Fall 1942 Draw (Full Version)

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Pelton -> Peltons vs Bobo 1.06.13+ Fall 1942 Draw (6/26/2012 4:54:46 PM)

Turn 1 was same old same old so I did not bother posting it.

Turn 2

I did manage to pocket 17 units this turn, which I never do as poeple just generally run for the hills and pocketing units from turns 2-10 is not easy.

4 ARM
German Arm PTs in pool=
German Manpower in pool=
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: 458,000 Total dead: 458,000
Russian OOB: 3,995,000
A net gain of: ? men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 17 not counting turn 1
GHC OOB: 3,340,000
GHC net OOB change: +0,000

AGN: Nothing to amazing really. 2 Divisions from AGC help with push on Leningrad.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/79B11FDB203D4AFAB3F07A006EDB6B18.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (6/26/2012 4:58:34 PM)

AGC: Normal advance. Now the wait for infantry to get to the front.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/70629FB0E73147888A4A02FA5FD12F87.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (6/26/2012 5:09:09 PM)

AGS:Bobo trys a checker board in the south, but I have seen this before and pocket 15 units. This is a bonus for me.

So far so good on all fronts.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/22AE233E751B4E79A594A6BBB5A9B813.jpg[/image]




M60A3TTS -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (6/26/2012 5:18:21 PM)

Nothing against Bobo as I don't know the player, but if you're out of retirement now, it would have been great seeing you play MichaelT. The irresistable force vs. the immoveable object.




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (6/26/2012 5:38:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Nothing against Bobo as I don't know the player, but if you're out of retirement now, it would have been great seeing you play MichaelT. The irresistable force vs. the immoveable object.


Flaviusx is to me clearly the best SHC player I have played. He understands all aspects of the game. MT is good, but clearly still learning and has no exp past mid-42 that I know of.

TDV is also very good attacking probably the best as SHC, but a average to poor defender. Hes a total wild card.

Kamil/Hoooper and MT are very good and probably about equal as far as playing SHC.

I dont beleive any of the 5 have lost a game yet as SHC.

All things being equal the SHC has the upper hand an should.

I beleive the game is balanced about as good as 2by3 can get it with out a major over haul.

The only equal that MT(GHC) could play is Flaviusx(SHC).

I don't think Flaviusx would have much trouble beating me.




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/3/2012 5:58:32 PM)

Turn 3
German Arm PTs in pool=
German Manpower in pool=
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: 316,000 Total dead: 774,000
Russian OOB: 3,801,000
A net gain of: -195,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 0 not counting turn 1
GHC OOB: 3,360,000
GHC net OOB change: +20,000

AGN: Pskov is cleared. I have out run supplies so I don't expect and thing major until turn 5



[image]local://upfiles/20387/FA0F2035CE864BD089BC6E1ED744CCB8.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/3/2012 5:59:24 PM)

AGC: Normal boring turn 3 for center. Resting tanks.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/03763EB86AF94C5893A0B310D26A7D37.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/3/2012 6:00:19 PM)

AGS: Pushing east , mech units are close to railheads so supplies and gas is good.
Bobo has desided the checker board is a bad idea and has moved all his units east out of range of my units this turn.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/640D85442A9A457682CB328B4F35565A.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 4:01:27 PM)

Turn 4
7 ARM
German Arm PTs in pool=
German Manpower in pool=
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: 120,000 Total dead: 891,000
Russian OOB: 4,012,000
A net gain of: +120,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,388,000
GHC net OOB change: +28,000

AGN: I open up the bridgehead and infantry start getting to front in force. I do a HQ build-up and position mech units so they can go north, east or south.



[image]local://upfiles/20387/5275F66EFB9A444EB872BA227C33282D.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 4:02:48 PM)

AGC: Infantry get to the front an do a few attacks. All mech units are pulled back and one HQ build-up is done. Tanks rest and refit for one turn. Units can push NE or SE to link up with AGN or AGS.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/02C695D35996412E9A587B97F4F83E3F.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 4:03:36 PM)

AGS: The major river is crossed in force just south of Kiev. Mech units can push north or south now. Infantry still marching to front.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/84E5A3A967824A6FB11BF7F75ADB628B.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 4:06:30 PM)

Turn 5
7 ARM
German Arm PTs in pool=
German Manpower in pool=
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: 98,000 Total dead: 987,000
Russian OOB: 4,240,000
A net gain of: +130,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 0 not counting turn 1
GHC OOB: 3,358,000
GHC net OOB change: -30,000

AGN: 18th and 16th army start pounding out the last 100 miles to Leningrad. 4th PG punchs a 20 mile wide hole in the lines near VL. This can head south or turn back north. Basicly right now looking to thin the lines out so a large pocket can be formed soon.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/0F2B0D093A324A0B871C398E27A291A4.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 4:07:17 PM)

AGC: The Infantry finally get to the front. A few attacks are made testing out the defences in the area. Rail heads are close so fuel supplys are good. Turning north or south to form a pocket is what I am hoping for.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/D5586C6364454A06B61412C478C77417.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 4:09:09 PM)

Turn 5
7 ARM
German Arm PTs in pool=
German Manpower in pool=
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: 98,000 Total dead: 987,000
Russian OOB: 4,240,000
A net gain of: +130,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 0 not counting turn 1
GHC OOB: 3,358,000
GHC net OOB change: -30,000

AGN: 18th and 16th army start pounding out the last 100 miles to Leningrad. 4th PG punchs a 20 mile wide hole in the lines near VL. This can head south or turn back north. Basicly right now looking to thin the lines out so a large pocket can be formed soon.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/F5A89F53F65C44EEBEA187A1EC3BD4BB.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 4:09:59 PM)

AGC: The Infantry finally get to the front. A few attacks are made testing out the defences in the area. Rail heads are close so fuel supplys are good. Turning north or south to form a pocket is what I am hoping for.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/38B22EEC3BF94ACFB40F74F3AFDE5603.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 4:11:14 PM)

AGS: Infantry divisions cross south of Keiv. 1st PG advances 110 miles and 2 HQ Build ups are done this turn. About 7 divisions should be cut off next turn. 6 PZ divisions are in the open and supplies have been air lifted in. The 6 90+ morale units that were HQed up could possibly get as far as Brynensk/Kursk or Kharkov. This should really thin things out.

[image]local://upfiles/20387/94D7251AB9534BFA94613DEAA9745678.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 4:21:06 PM)

Turns 1-5 Conclusions:

Over-all supplies really have not been an issue other then in center for turns 2 and 3. AGN and AGC should remain withen railhead range the rest of the game unless I get some major breakthrough, but if I chain and airlift I can at least get 2 turns of 45+ Mp's then the last chained Corp for the thrird turn.

AGS is a little out of good supply range, but chainning HQ-build-ups has so far kept the push driving forward every turn.
Over-loaded HQ's and muling have been nerfed but chaining is still 100% possible. The chain is only good for 3 turns, unlike overloads which were good for 4 and muling which was good for 5. Chaining requires a little luck and good planning.

Reaching Leningrad on turn 4(Pelton vs Hoooper) or D-Town/Z-town(several games) on turn 5 is still possible. Stalino
on turn 7 is probably still possible if the russian player retreats to fast(TDV).

All and all the nerf made it much much harder to raid, but its still doable. Conserving the air drops until the right time is also big.

The Lake Ilmen right hook is still easly doable, but will require a 3rd corp. The south has an extra pz corp HQ now that muling has been nerfed so transfer that to AGN early on.

I had some major conserns that that the last nerf totally stopped raiding as part of the german tool kit, but it has not. Long range 130ish MP corp size raids can be done still over 3 turns. The difference now is that 3 corps cant be part of a 5 turn 220 MP push.

The pushes have to be done:

Turn 1 3 corp
Turn 2 2 corp
Turn 3 1 corp.

It "might" be possible to have the 1st corp on turn 1 that got left behind to HQ up on turn 3 to push turn 4, but the push would be mainly to open up flanks more or save cut off raiding units.




HITMAN202 -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 7:03:57 PM)

I still can't figure how you make AGS fly like you do. I disagree (don't understand) about leaving AGN without any mech units. The AGN two infantry armies are going to bleed their way to Leningrad, not isolate many units (except how many or few the SU leave defending Leningrad proper which will depend on how hard the SU plans to defend it...or even tries to hold it !!!) and I and II Corp will never help out in Moscow's fall (which you, undoubtedly, will take.)

Granted IDOTS (I think Farfarer used this on me.) But if you make AGN mech strength two Corp with four divisions each, wait to gas one up on the 5th (not the 4th... you have to give the infantry time to chew on the Luga line and give you a feel for where to throw your armor) and the other up on the 6th, you have a tidal wave of force that will isolate Leningrad (reach the Neva) and possibly unhinge the Volkov River defensive line to boot, also eventually freeing up those 90 morale infantry divisions that the SU doesn't want to see aimed at the Kremlin.

The AGN mech units may help you make a small pocket on turn 6 in AGC, but their potential to hurt the Ruskies over the next 5 turns is less than had they stayed at home with AGN. AGC supply doesn't reach out far enough until turn 10 or so to have the threat of a coordinated mech HQBU to envelop Moscow become a reality (and a constant terror to the SU), so by beefing up AGN mech strength as I outlined above can quickly isolate Leningrad (theoretically) and still be available to put the hurt on in AGC.




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 8:11:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

I still can't figure how you make AGS fly like you do. I disagree (don't understand) about leaving AGN without any mech units. The AGN two infantry armies are going to bleed their way to Leningrad, not isolate many units (except how many or few the SU leave defending Leningrad proper which will depend on how hard the SU plans to defend it...or even tries to hold it !!!) and I and II Corp will never help out in Moscow's fall (which you, undoubtedly, will take.)

Granted IDOTS (I think Farfarer used this on me.) But if you make AGN mech strength two Corp with four divisions each, wait to gas one up on the 5th (not the 4th... you have to give the infantry time to chew on the Luga line and give you a feel for where to throw your armor) and the other up on the 6th, you have a tidal wave of force that will isolate Leningrad (reach the Neva) and possibly unhinge the Volkov River defensive line to boot, also eventually freeing up those 90 morale infantry divisions that the SU doesn't want to see aimed at the Kremlin.

The AGN mech units may help you make a small pocket on turn 6 in AGC, but their potential to hurt the Ruskies over the next 5 turns is less than had they stayed at home with AGN. AGC supply doesn't reach out far enough until turn 10 or so to have the threat of a coordinated mech HQBU to envelop Moscow become a reality (and a constant terror to the SU), so by beefing up AGN mech strength as I outlined above can quickly isolate Leningrad (theoretically) and still be available to put the hurt on in AGC.


Those are good points before the last few patches for sure. HQ build-up is not needed at all taking Leningrad. I still can right hook the lake or punch a hole where needed. If you take Leningrad and not Moscow your toast as German vs someone that knows how and when to build what ( all things being equal), but if you take Moscow and not Leningrad its not a big deal. The game now is about pockets/manpower centers and morale. The key right now is thinning the hole front out.
If you look at where the spearheads are he has to shread his forses out more and more each turn. So far I have been able to punch holes every turn and pocket more units then I normally do.

Leningrad will by you some time, but in the end you lose the war even if you do amazing great in the south. Moscow will win you the war. I have yet to see a game where it falls and the russians win. The railheads in center are more then close enough for build-ups on turn 4, but generally the russian player puts up a good wall.

Nothing is for sure but so far Moscow falling is the end of Russia.

On turn 8 the railheads are close enough for a 3 turn chain plus airdrops( 120ish MPs in 3 turns). So Moscow IS under threat as early as turn 9. If to many troops are in the north or south it could fall very early still.




timmyab -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/4/2012 11:01:45 PM)

I agree with Pelton that Leningrad is relatively unimportant in 41.Moscow is the great prize.Not just the city itself but more importantly for it's strategic position at the center of the board.If the Axis can push NE of Vishny during 41 then Leningrad becomes more of a liability than anything.If the SU hold the North in great strength in 42 then the German armor can run rampant in the South and East.If they don't hold it with enough strength then the Germans can push North from Vishny and make the position in Leningrad untenable which could even turn into a disaster if the North isn't evacuated quickly.
I think a Moscow first strategy is especially powerful against a Soviet player that sends too much stuff to Leningrad early on.They've weakened the south and center and spent a fortune in rail cap and now they'll have to spend another fortune railing it all back again.In the meantime 4th pz is in position to fatally unbalance the Soviet position in the center which feels pretty precarious even before 4th pz shows up.
The drive on Leningrad also goes against one of the fundamental principles of warfare - concentration of force.




Flaviusx -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/5/2012 12:52:14 AM)

I really don't see how you can ignore Leningrad.

If the Axis does this, the Soviet defense situation is considerably simplified. He can send literally everything to Moscow. The Soviet Union can be very strong in 1941 on a limited front. What makes their life miserable is multiple threats on a long front that cannot be stopped with 4-5 million men.

I have never lost Moscow and held Leningrad at the same time. The latter leads to the former and is a prerequisite for it.

Furthermore, Moscow is under no real threat until August due to logistical reasons. Whereas Leningrad is under immediate threat. By the time the Axis gets those rails up to a place where Moscow is in danger, the area can be massively reinforced. If I don't see any panzers heading to Leningrad, it will be immediately obvious what's going on and adjustments can be made easily. Leningrad itself will become a significant source of reinforcements, many of which can be diverted elsewhere in the absence of a real push for it.




timmyab -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/5/2012 2:38:06 AM)

I don't think that Leningrad should be ignored and in fact my intention would always be to take the city rapidly, possibly even with the help of extra armor from 3rd pz group.I just don't think the North is strategically that important to warrant smashing my head against a brick wall for the whole Summer if the SU decide they're going hold the place at all costs.
Even if 4th pz group is redeployed, I think one pz corps should be left in the North after Pskov is cleared to aid 18th and 16th armies and to maintain a credible threat.
I must say that Pelton's 4th pz group maneuver in this game does look a bit strange, the Leningrad defenses don't look too daunting at first glance.I think I might have just carried on here.




Farfarer -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/7/2012 1:10:32 AM)

Maybe he is bored with the usual and is trying something new and untried. That's how Lvov was discovered :)




Walloc -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/7/2012 1:44:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

Maybe he is bored with the usual and is trying something new and untried. That's how Lvov was discovered :)


Not quite, the Lvov pocket was first published in an AAR within 14 days after release of the game. I hardly think whom ever it was, that he/she was bored let alone having completed one or more full game(s) by then.

Kind regards,

Rasmus




notenome -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/7/2012 3:10:55 AM)

I think it was against me actually. At the time it was called 'the southern opening', ComradeP did it against me in our AAR that went up a little while after launch, two weeks seems about right.




Farfarer -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/7/2012 3:53:20 AM)

Ok, not bored, but "hugely creative right off the bat". Better ? :)




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/14/2012 2:46:41 PM)

Turn 6
7 ARM
German Arm PTs in pool=
German Manpower in pool=
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: 130,000 Total dead: 1,115,000
Russian OOB: 4,382,000
A net gain of: +140,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 15
GHC OOB: 3,341,000
GHC net OOB change: -16,000

Infantry so far has seen very very little fighting. Basicly usless for the first 6 turns other then flank protection. I have formed 2 small pockets, but have cut rail lines to another 50 units. The next 2 turns will be key to the summer. A 3 turn chain for a right hook around Leningrad starting on turn 8 is in the works and a 3 turn chain to Moscow starting on turn 9 is totally possible if a major pocket is formed (it was and it appears to be air tight) next turn in the center. The rail heads will be more then close enough. In the south probably starting on turn 9 or 10. The ground in the south is very easy to cover quickly.

AGN: 18th and 16th army keep pounding out the last 60 miles to Leningrad. 4th PG helps AGC close a small pocket and then turns back north.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/98AD998D0FF74AC987E318A585DACB7C.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/14/2012 2:47:39 PM)

AGC: Links with AGN and closes a small pocket and punchs a hole in the land bridge. PG 2 and 3 hope to link up with PG 1 next turn. Infantry are still behind. Units that look to be out front to far aren't trust me, I have played turn 7 alrdy.

What looks to be a possible error on my part (4th PZ) is part of a larger 6 turn plan. It could blow up in my face, but as of turn 7s completion it isn't.




[image]local://upfiles/20387/90F038B5ABCC4954AEA8825E91C2AEBB.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/14/2012 2:48:25 PM)

AGS: 1 PG drives north opening up allot of options for turn 7. A small pocket is formed.


[image]local://upfiles/20387/4B28139390364A2B89E305B4084E00C1.jpg[/image]




Gorforlin -> RE: Pelton vs 821Bobo 1.06 (7/14/2012 3:36:17 PM)

Hmm, supplies were nerfed last patch?

Someone forgot to tell Pelton?




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