Private sector atrophied (Full Version)

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solops -> Private sector atrophied (6/13/2012 4:53:49 PM)

I have posted a save game file illustrating a case where the private sector has disappeared. Once I had almost a thousand freighters and 90+ passenger ships and 40 each of mining ship types. Now I have less than 100 freighters and zero passenger ships and mining ships. Population movement between colonies seems to have ceased. I have run the game in this condiditon for several decades with no change in the number of commercial ships other than a small handful that were captured when I eliminated anothe empire.

Filename = NoPrivateSector




Bebop Cola -> RE: Private sector atrophied (6/13/2012 5:25:50 PM)

This may or may not be related to your scenario, but I noticed an interesting but frustrating occurrence in one of my games since 1.7.0.15. Due to a large strategic reserve fleet seeking to refuel at a single planet, it appears that a huge demand was set for that planet for hydrogen fuel. As a result of this demand, as well as the fleet taking over one or more of the planetary dock slots(there was no starport on this planet), my private sector was queueing up in massive numbers at the planet in an attempt to dock and deliver hydrogen.

Even after sending the fleet elsewhere to refuel, the civilian ships remained queued and the demand did not appear to have cleared since new civilian ships continued to show up in an attempt to deliver fuel. As I was unable to control those ships to cancel queued tasks, they were effectively stuck waiting their chance to dock and conduct business. Over time, any type of private sector ship(including passenger ships) began accumulating as well. Of course, since the ships were still around and otherwise OK, new civilian ships were not being constructed to meet the shipping demand growing elsewhere in the empire.

My solution, after discovering the planet in question after wondering why my civilian shipping had seemingly vanished, was to first send the large fleet away, then build a starport at the planet to add some docking bays. Eventually, new civilians ships would dock there, letting the queue for the planet itself drain down. I could then scrap the starport and all was well again. I even saw extremely large temporary increases in my bonus income(from trade and starport fees) once the ships got back to servicing the rest of the empire.

I was considering reporting it as a bug in 1.7.0.15, but I didn't have enough info yet to make a substantive report. Still, you might check your planets to see if you have a similar situation occurring.




solops -> RE: Private sector atrophied (6/13/2012 5:35:41 PM)

No. My empire is is large, 66+ planets with large starbases in most of the key systems. My fleets are dispersed and have been culled. I have been at peace for 20/40 years.  And, one of the first things I do in ALL games is to put extra docking bays on all of my bases, especially the smaller once in order to avoid having to build larger bases for commerce. Also, this is not a case of congestion. The commercial ship count has gone from +/-1000 to less than 100, including Zero passenger ships. This behavior was noted in an earlier version of DW and fixed. It seems to be back. And all techs related to commerce have been researched. The tech tree has only a few things left un-researched.




Fishman -> RE: Private sector atrophied (6/14/2012 4:31:26 PM)

Several reasons may exist for private sector atrophy: First, perhaps you're bleeding them white with taxes. Second, maybe you lack a new design of ship. Third, it's possible they're all flying into a deathtrap somewhere, where someone will decide he needs to deliver something to the middle of a raging warzone, get his ass shot down, causing someone ELSE to decide he needs to deliver to that same raging warzone...

Finally, maybe it's a good thing. Because, seriously, why the hell does an empire of only 70 planets need THOUSANDS of ships, anyway? I've often wondered that, and most of the time when I look, it seems like those thousands of ships are just dawdling around or flying aimlessly with empty cargo bays. Let's ask a different question: Do you actually miss those ships? Is anything actually WRONG with the empire and its functioning?




Bebop Cola -> RE: Private sector atrophied (6/14/2012 6:58:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Finally, maybe it's a good thing. Because, seriously, why the hell does an empire of only 70 planets need THOUSANDS of ships, anyway? I've often wondered that, and most of the time when I look, it seems like those thousands of ships are just dawdling around or flying aimlessly with empty cargo bays.

Well, it seems like it would be reasonable in a "real world" scenario assuming building/purchasing a ship that can travel FTL with any profitable level of cargo capacity is not impossibly expensive, reflecting individual entrepreneurship and corporate commerce.

That said, with DW's relatively simplified trade/shipping system of moving about a limited selection of raw resources wouldn't appear to need that level of shipping. There needs to be a certain over-abundance so as to approach a constant, or at least just-in-time, delivery schedule, but at times the flood in civilian shipping in DW does appear to be excessive.

I suspect it is a design workaround to problem with the AI making efficient decision in civilian shipping. If you're struggling with getting the AI to choose the correct sized freighter at the correct location to transport the correct resource to meet some demand queue somewhere else, it makes a certain sense that one dodge to the problem might be flooding the system with freighters so as to ensure that something is available wherever needed, preventing the job queue of a more limited set of freighters from growing too long from inefficiencies. Sure, it introduces problems of its own, but excess freight capacity will use up resources(strategic and fuel), and can be "pruned" by pirates or enemy empires. Of course, whether those systems are beneficial/effective is open to debate as well.

I'd suggest giving some consideration to the trade system being revamped to make more efficient use of freighters, and in so doing hopefully reduce the need for so many of them. My thinking would be that shipping jobs assigned to a freighter size are determined by the volume of trade between two or more points, the regularity of that trade, or the distance involved.

Small freighters:
1. Negligible or intermittent trade volume between two points or one-off jobs as required, reflecting a potential new trade route.
2. Resource gathering from in-system or mining bases near their drop-off point. Shorter travel times mean smaller loads are not particularly inefficient, and the resource site is not as likely to be depleted when the freighter stops by again.

Medium Freighters:
1. Moderate regular trade volume between two points.
2. Resource gathering from mining bases an average distance from the nearest drop-off point. Longer travel time gives the mine time to re-build its stockpile before the next visit, so a larger load can be taken at a time.

Large Freighters:
1. Large/regular trade between two planetary stockpiles.
2. Resource gathering from distant mining bases.
3. One-off large resource requests, ie. new colony resource stockpiles or new ship construction needs.

Of course, given the relatively minor difference in cargo capacity between each freighter type a system like this might be unnecessary. If even small freighters are often flying around with their cargo mostly empty, then there's really no point in building larger freighters except as visual fluff. It would be nice to see the private sector have an idea of how much cargo capacity it needs before requesting a new freighter so it builds the smallest freighter required. Small empires and those just starting out might only build small freighters as they just wouldn't utilize the cargo-capacity of larger freighters.

In other words, when the private sector needs to build a new freighter, it needs to have a better idea of what would best meet the given need. If my empire has no foreign contacts and consists of just my home system and maybe the next one over, I likely don't need a large freighter yet; I can get by with small freighters. If I start to see supply pressures my private sector needs to efficiently decide if I just new more small freighters so I can hit my existing sites more often, or if I need a medium freighter to deliver larger loads.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much of that the current system does or if it's even a feasible suggestion. Just throwing ideas out there.




solops -> RE: Private sector atrophied (6/14/2012 7:15:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Several reasons may exist for private sector atrophy: First, perhaps you're bleeding them white with taxes. Second, maybe you lack a new design of ship. Third, it's possible they're all flying into a deathtrap somewhere, where someone will decide he needs to deliver something to the middle of a raging warzone, get his ass shot down, causing someone ELSE to decide he needs to deliver to that same raging warzone...

Finally, maybe it's a good thing. Because, seriously, why the hell does an empire of only 70 planets need THOUSANDS of ships, anyway? I've often wondered that, and most of the time when I look, it seems like those thousands of ships are just dawdling around or flying aimlessly with empty cargo bays. Let's ask a different question: Do you actually miss those ships? Is anything actually WRONG with the empire and its functioning?



You are overlooking several important things. Certain luxury goods increase happiness. No ships-no goods-poor happiness. Production has been at a standstill on several bases due to lack of materials while bases in richer systems are built rapidly. My recreation stabases need more traffic....but I have no passneger ships. I want more humans spread around and I want those pesky aliens transported...no passenger ships. My taxes are set at the default settings most of the time. Occasionally I run them lower to encourage growth. All ships, freighter types and passenger have current, buildable designs that are cheap. There is no war, so no "deathtraps". If you have not noticed from the above posts, I ran this for several decades, practically as a sandbox just to see what would happen. The need for ships is there and I do miss them.




onomastikon -> RE: Private sector atrophied (6/15/2012 1:34:43 PM)

Have you ever been to Manhattan? Thousands of ships is nuthin




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