using carriers to full potential help. (Full Version)

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Lonck -> using carriers to full potential help. (5/25/2012 10:07:20 PM)

I can't find a use for carriers. Are they useless or do I not know how to use them? I put only auto canons on the carriers and 100 fighter/bombers (50/50). Problem is that when I tell them to attack they go right at the enemy and just stand there launching fighters instead of staying and as far away as possible. Fighters/bombers, too, are a problem because as the carrier is getting attacked they, instead of attacking ships that are hitting the carrier, go and attack far away targets instead of prioritizing the carrier first. So, I need some pointers as how to use the carrier's full potential or are they just useless?




ceyan -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/26/2012 12:00:25 AM)

Either don't put any weapons on them or put a long range weapon on them and set the design combat settings to stand off. IIRC they'll still launch fighters even at stand off range.




Kayoz -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/26/2012 2:52:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan

Either don't put any weapons on them or put a long range weapon on them and set the design combat settings to stand off. IIRC they'll still launch fighters even at stand off range.


Why standoff, not evade? Is there a difference?




ceyan -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/26/2012 3:00:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan

Either don't put any weapons on them or put a long range weapon on them and set the design combat settings to stand off. IIRC they'll still launch fighters even at stand off range.


Why standoff, not evade? Is there a difference?


Evade is get the hell out of dodge, which usually involves the ship shutting down power to weapons and going full engine power, and then hyper out of the zone. Standoff just means sit at your longest weapon range and pound stuff with what you can at that range. Great for taking out space ports.




Beag -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/26/2012 4:31:54 AM)

It´s great with missile boats too. One borderline exploitative tactic is using poorly protected ships with lots of missiles in stand-off stance and ships with lots of fast-recharging shields in point-blank stance; even better if you have close range weapons. It does require smart positioning of ships; instead of ordering the fleet to move over the planet (which will make everyone jump way too close to the enemy´s fleet and bases), you order them to move near it. Voilá, the gunboats will engage and missile boats will stay behind.

By the way, shouldn´t there be some kind of formations system in this game?




Kayoz -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/26/2012 7:25:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag

...and ships with lots of fast-recharging shields in point-blank stance...

Why fast recharging shields? I have always gone with bigger shields. Since ships try to escape when a set percentage of their shields are gone, it gives them more time to escape than the smaller, faster recharging shields. I haven't had too many battles that were prolonged enough to warrant faster recharge rates.




ceyan -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/27/2012 4:24:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag

...and ships with lots of fast-recharging shields in point-blank stance...

Why fast recharging shields? I have always gone with bigger shields. Since ships try to escape when a set percentage of their shields are gone, it gives them more time to escape than the smaller, faster recharging shields. I haven't had too many battles that were prolonged enough to warrant faster recharge rates.


You can also configure when they flee. I can't speak for Beag but a great idea for Fast charging shields and point-blank stance is design a ship with rail guns, lots of speed (thrusters) and a minimal amount of manuverability (thrust vectors). The ships charge in a full speed, take and give an alpha strike, then zoom past and take long enough to turn around that their shields are already pretty high again. I've used that method a few times to destroy space ports with enough tech that I can't go toe to toe with them.




Kayoz -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/27/2012 5:23:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan
You can also configure when they flee. I can't speak for Beag but a great idea for Fast charging shields and point-blank stance is design a ship with rail guns, lots of speed (thrusters) and a minimal amount of manuverability (thrust vectors). The ships charge in a full speed, take and give an alpha strike, then zoom past and take long enough to turn around that their shields are already pretty high again. I've used that method a few times to destroy space ports with enough tech that I can't go toe to toe with them.

Interesting idea - I'll give it a shot. Thanks!




Beag -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/27/2012 2:13:58 PM)

It obviously depends on tech advantage, how good your shield is and how many ships you have. Obviously a frigate will be blasted soon, but 2 capital ships can hold out pretty long, specially if you´re Zenox (but then again Zenox have over-powered shield so it doesn´t really count, any tactic is viable with them, really). And sorry the tactic I said was dumb, actually better to use "all weapons" so they will actually stay some distance and not be overwhelmed. Unless you have the special weapon that sends pulses instead of the death ray. I had that luck last game, two defenive bases ripped apart a fleet of the ugly spiders in seconds. Since that weapon does friendly fire, it´s more properly used on a ship with many shields that will be able to reach the mid of the enemy fleet, while your ships use long range weaponry.




jpwrunyan -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/29/2012 6:26:54 AM)

Guys, when you have 1400 shields it takes weeks to recharge them. So unless you are overshooting into hyperspace then your conception of recharge rate is probably flawed. That or your measely one shield overshoot tactic isnt what is saving you. Try charging an area weapon with your fast strike ships. The only thing that will overshoot the target is the debris from your ships as they get decimated by defense stations' area weapon bursts.

For ships that are going into battle recharge rate is superior to shield strength. For bases and ships that are not meant to see battle, shield strength is the way to go.

And either way, when attacking colonies (the only thing worth attacking), shield *quantity* is decisive.




Fishman -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/29/2012 3:13:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag

It´s great with missile boats too. One borderline exploitative tactic is using poorly protected ships with lots of missiles in stand-off stance and ships with lots of fast-recharging shields in point-blank stance; even better if you have close range weapons.

How is this borderline? This sounds like basic combined arms to me. Tanks supported by artillery. Hell, this is the standard way that ships are often designed in games where the designs are hardcoded.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

And either way, when attacking colonies (the only thing worth attacking), shield *quantity* is decisive.

Yes, recharge doesn't matter, even guns don't matter, it's just about flying a giant delivery-brick to drop a crapton of troops onto the surface. After you successfully land, you can watch your enemy flail uselessly until he gets mauled by his own starbase.




Beag -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (5/30/2012 6:28:30 PM)

Problem is that the AI doesn´t recognize the threat and adapts accordingly. For example if you use fast missile boats with few shields it should use fighters or bombers to bring them down. For those who played Sins of a Solar Empire that´s exactly how the game is balanced, missile ships have high firepower but are mauled by fighters. Only problem with missiles is their bad armor penetration so it takes ages to damage a pursuer. But really, try the heavily shielded baiter/missile boat fleet, it works pretty well and even better if you have a good area weapon.




Fishman -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (6/1/2012 11:48:25 AM)

Carriers don't have much potential. Since fighters have the worst DPS per space of the weapons out there, they're only useful for striking at a distance. The arbitrary requirement for a carrier to be 40% fighter bays cripples them, because between the engines needed to fight a ranged engagement and the fighter bays, you're left with no room for basic things like reactors to power the engines, fuel to run the reactors, or anything else. What's more, the fighters are slower than your ship is, rendering them pointless. Only 130 speed max? That's it? My battlecruisers do 180-200!




Beag -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (6/1/2012 2:28:59 PM)

DPS alone is never and inidication of a weapon efectiveness alone. What do you prefer, a weapon that deals 5 DPS but gets none in return (fighters) or one that deals 15 but forces you to close in and take 10 (or more)? All must be taken into context.




Gareth_Bryne -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (6/1/2012 3:36:41 PM)

A question - do the fighters miss? It seems not. Furthermore, relatively, fighters have the longest range of any weapon - launch range + own weapon range. Plus the fact they keep on shooting and, when shot down, respawn.




Bebop Cola -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (6/1/2012 5:56:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
Only 130 speed max? That's it? My battlecruisers do 180-200!

While the game certainly allows it, it seems somewhat unreasonable that such a massive vessel can zoom about at those speeds. What's the turn radius on such a ship?




ehsumrell1 -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (6/1/2012 11:24:27 PM)

In Legends, fighters are excellent against Silvermist and the other space creatures.




Fishman -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (6/6/2012 3:35:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bebop Cola

While the game certainly allows it, it seems somewhat unreasonable that such a massive vessel can zoom about at those speeds. What's the turn radius on such a ship?
I don't see why it wouldn't be reasonable. Even in the real world, battleships are as fast as anything else. It's all about the engine ratios, not absolute size. The turn radius? It's pretty decent, I can do about 30 degrees per second, so by DW standards, the ship is pretty agile. It damned well should be, it's a flying engine!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1
In Legends, fighters are excellent against Silvermist and the other space creatures.
Certainly true, perhaps, but "using fighters" is not quite the same as "using carriers". A battleship you stuck about 3 fighters on isn't actually a carrier, and doesn't get the upsizing bonus, nor has to abide by the arbitrarily impossible design rules.




jpwrunyan -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (6/6/2012 12:13:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman


quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

And either way, when attacking colonies (the only thing worth attacking), shield *quantity* is decisive.

Yes, recharge doesn't matter, even guns don't matter, it's just about flying a giant delivery-brick to drop a crapton of troops onto the surface. After you successfully land, you can watch your enemy flail uselessly until he gets mauled by his own starbase.


Heh, I loled.




rogerbacon50 -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (7/6/2012 5:44:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Carriers don't have much potential. Since fighters have the worst DPS per space of the weapons out there, they're only useful for striking at a distance. The arbitrary requirement for a carrier to be 40% fighter bays cripples them, because between the engines needed to fight a ranged engagement and the fighter bays, you're left with no room for basic things like reactors to power the engines, fuel to run the reactors, or anything else. What's more, the fighters are slower than your ship is, rendering them pointless. Only 130 speed max? That's it? My battlecruisers do 180-200!


Is that stock or did you mod your game? I never seem to have ships that can go faster than 50. The AI ships are alwasy faster. I've added engines until there is barely any speed increase and I know I couldn't get over maybe speed 60 if I added nothing else but engines.




rogerbacon50 -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (7/6/2012 5:45:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lonck

I can't find a use for carriers. Are they useless or do I not know how to use them? I put only auto canons on the carriers and 100 fighter/bombers (50/50). Problem is that when I tell them to attack they go right at the enemy and just stand there launching fighters instead of staying and as far away as possible. Fighters/bombers, too, are a problem because as the carrier is getting attacked they, instead of attacking ships that are hitting the carrier, go and attack far away targets instead of prioritizing the carrier first. So, I need some pointers as how to use the carrier's full potential or are they just useless?


I've modded my fighters to fly out and attack targets farther away than the default range so the battles are almost always over before my carriers get within range. I found that the default range forces your carriers to be right in the battles, which is not how I picture carriers working.




Dracus -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (7/6/2012 11:56:00 PM)

They do miss and when out of supplies , they do stop shooting. The respawn only happens if teh ship is not in combat and you can change the setting to tell the game not to replace lost fighters.

The only weapons you should put on carriers, is point blank defense so that they can defend against fighter attacks. They will then stand off from enemy ships.




w1p -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (7/7/2012 1:11:09 PM)

I don't use carriers at all... the ship AI doesn't make proper use of it unless you give it NO other weapons, and then when caught short they get mullered.




Wild_Bill -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (8/5/2012 5:09:49 PM)

So how exactly do you GET carriers in the first place? I've played a couple of games now and got to the point where I can produce Capital and Resupply Ships, but no hint of a Carrier yet.




ehsumrell1 -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (8/5/2012 10:29:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild_Bill

So how exactly do you GET carriers in the first place? I've played a couple of games now and got to the point where I can produce Capital and Resupply Ships, but no hint of a Carrier yet.

Look in the research tech tree of Fighters and you'll find the tile that says 'Carriers' similar
to the one for 'Resupply Ships'. Once that's researched you'll have the ability to build them.
If I recall correctly it is in the Weapons Research area.




Bleek -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (8/5/2012 11:09:11 PM)

You know what I don't think I've ever used carriers!

Might be time to give them a shot, they sound interesting.




Wild_Bill -> RE: using carriers to full potential help. (8/6/2012 3:56:13 AM)

Thanks!




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