ETF - Printing OOB (Full Version)

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Lieste -> ETF - Printing OOB (5/10/2012 7:12:42 AM)

The file size restriction was too tight to upload the sample page. Besides, we are talking about BfTB scenarios...

So, continuing:

As a very rough (and first-cut) idea - here is the left hand column of the Dinant or Die OOB - with the unit icon (WW2 German ~ish) the in-game designation, in-game name and time of arrival.

If you'd prefer App6 (NATO) I can convert to these quickly enough.

Also any idea as to preferred layout.format etc? Depends on how you want to use them - I doubt I'll have time to redo as a 'proper' Gliderung with the 'segmented' Bn and actual counts of heavy weapons, as extracting that info requires a chunk of time going back and forth between the game/editors and noting the relevant factors. Certainly do-able as a concept but not by the weekend.
OTOH, this list is not too helpful, as it concentrates on arrival time and location... to the detriment of organisation.

Perhaps a 'card' like this for each 'block' of reinforcements, and then the list ordered by OOB and coded by colour/shade for arrival group? Again might take more time than I'll have.

Having some trouble exporting the font in a PDF, I can work around it in a few ways, the NATO/App6 font is embeddable and doesn't suffer that problem.

You might need to setup XPS viewer if it isn't installed by default.

Lieste -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/10/2012 11:51:39 AM)

Ok, technical hiccup overcome... PDF writing now possible... which makes life much easier. [:D]

Lieste -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/10/2012 11:23:24 PM)

And a <rough> App6 version of the same:

If you can tell me how you'd like to use and present the lists I can produce the relevant pages/files to print your bits n bobs... I can only realistically produce anything fairly simple (though that doesn't mean it can't be a little more 'designed') and only for one 'style' as they are completely different encodings.

I prefer the German Symbols, but there are less 'matched' to the in-game. Neither are an exact 1:1 correlation - it might be possible to get a bit closer, but that will take some time, and not all the relevant glyphs are present anyway.

What might be doable is a separate 'page' for each Bn/Kampfgruppe and Regt HQ/support Gruppe. This could have space for notating any detachments or additional attachments, and to which unit the attachment is made... Let me think about that, but please I need to know what you'd like so I can say you can't have it [sm=scared0018.gif]

ETF -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/11/2012 12:05:28 AM)

They both look GREAT!!!

Yes I was just fiddling with them to try and get a little space for notations and what not. I was going to break down the units into Battalion ones. Not for you (you have down already too much) but is it possible for one in the scenario editor to print out the TO&E for units ?

Thanks again AWESOME!

The first one is the most interesting I think to use. I have a German conversion chart to go with it for the newbies. After all half of the guys playing are going to be miniature gamers. You know how basic their games are ..... [:D]

Lieste -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/11/2012 12:18:05 AM)

Yup.. you control 2nd PzD - here represented by a PzV and a StuG plus 3 'stands' of infantry... your task is to assault the city - two huts and a bush [:D].
Miniature wargamers... they're... ~Funny~

You can print out the TO&E for units from the Scenario Editor, but it is a bit of a slog...
I've tried to highlight the major 'headline' weapons in each unit, but the quanities do actually differ from the Estab (which I know (mostly)) and the Scenario & Runtime - this latter can be a bit unpredictable with excess stocks sometimes being culled prior to start, and sometimes weapons being above the TO&E for the persQ fraction as displayed in ScenEdit.

Probably more useful is to list the troop 'quality' and % strengths... there can be an over-reliance on Troop equipment and 'headline' size... players might get a shock sometimes when their 'elite' PzGren Bn turns out to be truck mounted Schuetzen roughly the strength of a strong Company, and tired and brittle...

Lieste -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/11/2012 12:48:03 AM)

I've rotated the pages, and arranged units so that there is a bit more space for scribbling notes.

Each reinforcement group arriving at the same time on the same route is 'together' as are reinforcing units such as battalions within each window.

I haven't grouped elements from the same formation arriving at different times/locations, but that is fairly simple to do if required.

Trivial to adjust font sizes/scaling or column widths, or to add/remove any notations - (for example by adding the Time/location as a headline, the arrival time column could be omitted).

I'm aware that you need to finalise your presentation if you are to be ready for Saturday, so I'll set aside tomorrow afternoon to bounce back anything you need (Friday morning your time). Think about what else would be/have been useful, because there is scope for improvements in how BfTB imports/exports data for this sort of use IMO, all the windows are too small to see the whole width of, and too short to see the complete list of equipment, which is frequently spread over multiple tabs.

ETF -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/12/2012 1:00:26 AM)

LOOKS Fantastic!!! Thanks!

ETF -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/12/2012 1:01:23 AM)

Lieste......Where do you get the icons from to make the units? Can I steal them from somewhere?

Lieste -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/12/2012 1:22:48 AM)

Tom Mouat's site:

The NATO symbology on the App6 and "App6a/Milstd 2525" pages. The latter more complete and recent. (Units only, not mobility/task overlays) Building the full Milstd capability is probably a fairly big fiddle, and not something I've attempted as a 'Text/Font' task. The simple overlays used by wargamers and for 'overview' maps is simple - I use a point size of ~8 for the text and #18-24 for the icon. Place the left 'unit name' text first in black with a trailing space, increase the font size and change to the appropriate 'flavour' then background with the 'colour' - switch to black and add HQ/Size/Modifiers then Unit Icon, change to text size and font and using a leading space add the right hand affiliation. Note I abused the format somewhat to preserve the equipment type information in a simple to control layout, with the counter designation presented as on the in-game icon.

The German Font is one of the ones on the "Other Fonts" page.

He intends to have all fully installable/embeddable, but the download for the German Symbols was 'restricted'. I got a revised version from him after I had solved the embedding issue already, but don't know if he updated the site at the same time...
He asks that he is credited, but otherwise they are free for non-commercial use.

There were some things you can't easily do with the available glyphs, and some unit types I was uncertain how to describe.

Once you have the format set up, I would copy it and paste into every location required. Then edit the unit name/size & type, rather than doing a complete setup for each icon.

Lieste -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/12/2012 3:40:02 AM)

Would be great to have an AAR/photos of the event.

Perhaps a save should be made prior to entering orders for each 'phase'? What do you think?

Pergite! -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/12/2012 4:39:20 PM)

The standard staff planning tool used when doing things like attacking American divisions in the French forests, air assaulting towns in Holland or more recently invading Iraq is to use some kind of timeline. You place your force on it and their time of arrival versus potential reinforcements expected for your opponent. Voilą, you can instantly see when you are at maximums strength vs your opponent (time to attack) and where in time you could expect the point of culmination (when you need to dig in). Time critical objectives are also placed and you plan your actions backwards from them, i.e where do I need to go/accomplish to reach my objective.

If all scenarios had clearer OOBs like you work there, that would really help if anyone would want to really plan their game. Format the arrival units like cards with arrival times at the top, then just cut and paste onto a timeline document, or on you office wall besides you operational map [;)]

Printable OOB, ingame timeline window and a vector drawing tool for own overlays and notes... three things that I always have missed in every wargame I have played, and I believe I have played them all (even POA2).

Arjuna -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/13/2012 12:35:30 AM)

Good suggestions Pergite. Thanks.

Pergite! -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/13/2012 12:41:24 PM)



Good suggestions Pergite. Thanks.

Thank you!

Even for "casual" (aka non-nerd/grognard) players some own input on the map could really help to improve the learning curve. Returning after some time to a bigger scenario (regardless of wargame really) tends to be rather confusing when you realise that you have forgotten if you where playing after some grand scheme that you had developed to ensure victory. With no recollection of it anyway, I tend to find that the whole game then just changes into reactions, that you leave up to the enemy to see what happens and you just counter his moves instead of being creative.

Letting your units act our their orders under a overlay also let you see if everything goes as planned and better understand how you should tweak your way of giving orders regarding everything from distances, areas and tempo. It would really highlight the unrivalled realism in execution that the series offer, and add a planning perspective that would be on the same level of excellence.

Have you btw ever toyed around with the concept of friendly FOW in Command Ops?

Arjuna -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/13/2012 12:54:36 PM)

Back in 1996 when we started designing we looked at it but then the computers were not powerful enough. We could address it today at least to the extent of dividing each side into commands and then allowing each command to have its own database of friendly and enemy forces. That would be do-able.

Pergite! -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/14/2012 5:18:53 PM)



Back in 1996 when we started designing we looked at it but then the computers were not powerful enough. We could address it today at least to the extent of dividing each side into commands and then allowing each command to have its own database of friendly and enemy forces. That would be do-able.

That would be really interesting and of course really add a whole new layer on the notion of command in the game.

I however sadly believe that such a feature only would be appreciated by a rather small numbers of players. The grognards that express concern over command ops because they feel that they lack control would for example be even more distraught if they also lacked situational awareness. It would in any case bring a new meaning to your setting "Painfully realistic".

Arjuna -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/15/2012 12:52:28 AM)

Yes I tend to agree with your assessment. The trouble is that most wargamers who cut their teeth on the boardgame classics have become entrenched with the state of absolute control. I am not saying we have bred a group of control freaks but as you say the majority of them feel uncompfortable with experiencing what real commanders face. The irony of it is that with modern warfare there is much better situational awareness now than back in WW2. We now face a risk of cultivating a new generation of real commanders who can't command without that degree of awareness. And that's a worry in my view as hi tech solutions like Blue force tracker and GPS are vulnerable to counter measures. But that's another story.

Pergite! -> RE: ETF - Printing OOB (5/15/2012 8:45:52 PM)

Been there, done that...

In WW2 a German order for a divisions week long attack could fit on a single sheet of paper. Today we produce small novellas when companies go out and conduct basic framework operations in Afghanistan. The need to control is just absurd. Everyone talks highly about Auftargstaktik while in shcool, but when faced with an opportunity to use it most commanders would rather put small transponders on all their soldiers and control every single movement, just to be safe.

POA2 albeit almost unplayable has a good layered model of enemy EW that affects your comms, that in turn increase your blue fog of war. It is so detailed that it actually counts data packets for different comm systems vs jamming effect and ranges. If Command Ops ever took the leap to more modern times, that could possibly be a good feature to "borrow".

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