Fire and ice

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geofflambert -> Fire and ice (5/8/2012 4:54:05 AM)
I've started this thread because I don't want to mess up Panzerjaeger's AAR any more than I already have. My main complaint was about conducting operations in the subarctic Alaska area. My view is very dim about the whole proposition. Bullwinkle said that I should do some research because I apparently don't know what I'm talking about. He also mentioned an analysis that Alfred did about the feasability of an offensive in the NorthWest. In my experience Bullwinkle is a pretty fair fellow, and Alfred really knows his stuff. I am in no position to argue with either on what is possible to do in the game. However, that is not what most concerns me (or most of you, I think) on this issue. So far as I can tell, the game allows you to ship supplies to Nome any time you wish. Many of us are aware that a ship cannot get within a 100 miles of Nome in the winter without an icebreaker, and it is even then problematic (as was evidenced this past winter when we had to request help from the Russians to get fuel there so they could generate heat in order to stay alive)(this also speaks to the fact you couldn't even fly there if my memory is correct). Nome of course is superfluous, who cares? This is about the Aleutians, Dutch Harbor, Kodiak and Anchorage etc.. If Bullwinkle wouldn't mind doing some research himself, he might read about the miserable conditions during the Aleutian Campaign, most of which occurred in the Summer. I am a blowhard of course, and don't need to do any research as I already know everything. My position includes such things as this: Trying to fly aircraft up there in the winter is much of the time simply impossible. If you manage to get airborne, ice begins forming on your wings, you lose lift and your aircraft takes a dive into the ocean. The seas are so heavy (in the winter) an aircraft carrier is like a bucking bronco and it is very difficult to take off and nearly impossible to land. Some of the pedestrians reading this may recall seeing that "Deadliest Catch" TV program about the crab fishermen up there. I'm also suspicious of the fuel storage capacity in those ports up there (but being the blowhard I am, I'm not actually sure) which would be essential for the IJN to conduct operations there long term. I don't know how many dog sled teams the Japanese had prepared for such an offensive, but it wasn't enough. Don't get me started about the bicycle troops they would have used to march on DC (subsisting in part on prairie dogs (which carry bubonic plague by the way). So, anyway, way too much about me, let's start a discussion of the facts and whether "House Rules" need to be developed about this until the game is adjusted to deal with the realities, if I'm right or I'm only partially right.

ChezDaJez -> RE: Fire and ice (5/8/2012 5:56:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert I've started this thread because I don't want to mess up Panzerjaeger's AAR any more than I already have. My main complaint was about conducting operations in the subarctic Alaska area. My view is very dim about the whole proposition. Bullwinkle said that I should do some research because I apparently don't know what I'm talking about. He also mentioned an analysis that Alfred did about the feasability of an offensive in the NorthWest. In my experience Bullwinkle is a pretty fair fellow, and Alfred really knows his stuff. I am in no position to argue with either on what is possible to do in the game. However, that is not what most concerns me (or most of you, I think) on this issue. So far as I can tell, the game allows you to ship supplies to Nome any time you wish. Many of us are aware that a ship cannot get within a 100 miles of Nome in the winter without an icebreaker, and it is even then problematic (as was evidenced this past winter when we had to request help from the Russians to get fuel there so they could generate heat in order to stay alive)(this also speaks to the fact you couldn't even fly there if my memory is correct). Nome of course is superfluous, who cares? This is about the Aleutians, Dutch Harbor, Kodiak and Anchorage etc.. If Bullwinkle wouldn't mind doing some research himself, he might read about the miserable conditions during the Aleutian Campaign, most of which occurred in the Summer. I am a blowhard of course, and don't need to do any research as I already know everything. My position includes such things as this: Trying to fly aircraft up there in the winter is much of the time simply impossible. If you manage to get airborne, ice begins forming on your wings, you lose lift and your aircraft takes a dive into the ocean. The seas are so heavy (in the winter) an aircraft carrier is like a bucking bronco and it is very difficult to take off and nearly impossible to land. Some of the pedestrians reading this may recall seeing that "Deadliest Catch" TV program about the crab fishermen up there. I'm also suspicious of the fuel storage capacity in those ports up there (but being the blowhard I am, I'm not actually sure) which would be essential for the IJN to conduct operations there long term. I don't know how many dog sled teams the Japanese had prepared for such an offensive, but it wasn't enough. Don't get me started about the bicycle troops they would have used to march on DC (subsisting in part on prairie dogs (which carry bubonic plague by the way). So, anyway, way too much about me, let's start a discussion of the facts and whether "House Rules" need to be developed about this until the game is adjusted to deal with the realities, if I'm right or I'm only partially right. I posted this on PJH's AAR before seeing this thread... quote: Aleutian weather is quite misunderstood. I spent 2 years stationed on Adak and a couple of deployments and detachments there so I think I have some experience there. In reality, there are more clear days in winter than in summer. Temperature seldoms drops below 20F at night and tends to hover between 32 and 40F in the day. Snowfall tends to be relatively light, no more than a couple of inches at a time usually but blowing snow can be an issue. Its not uncommon to have a bright sunny day yet be in a whiteout due to blowing snow. Wind is always a problem with a calm day being about 20kts. Windchill can really put a "chill" on things. Pity the poor mechanic who has to work outside on an engine 10 feet off the ground. Water is far more an issue than ice as the airfiled drainage tends to be poor due to the airfield at Adak being built on part of the lagoon. Ice typically comes and goes rather quickly. I can't tell you how many times the base police made us chain up to drive the half mile to work and then you had to take the chains off in the afternoon because everything melted. It was easier to walk. Williwaws with winds over 100kts are fairly common during the fall and spring months. Fog is the main problem in summer and is very prevalent. When there is no fog then you have the omnipresent overcast at about 2-3000ft. Navigation is a bear as many a crashed aircraft in the Aleutians will attest to. Temperatures tend to average in the mid 50s in summer. Anyways, my two cents worth. Chez Many people confuse the conditions in the Aleutians as being the same as those on the Alaska mainland. Its not. Aleutian Island weather tends to be much more balmy than Nome. The Aleutians are heavily influenced by the warm Pacific current in much the same way Iceland and Nova Scotia is influenced by the Gulf Stream. Shows like "The Deadliest Catch" tend to dramatize the weather and make it out to be far worse than it actually is. And note that most of the weather conditions the show highlights is NORTH of the Aleutians, away from the influence of the Pacific current. Icing is a problem in the air and at sea but the islands themselves are not and never have been sheets of ice, at least not in recent history. BTW, by late 1943, Adak had nearly 90,000 troops and all the supply and fuel it needed. There is still thousands of tons of coal in bunkers scattered about the island and at the bottom of the bay. Chez

wdolson -> RE: Fire and ice (5/8/2012 6:05:34 AM)
During the war, Nome was one of the key links on the air transport system that ferried aircraft from the US to the USSR. Russian pilots came down to Montana, picked up planes and flew them all the way to the front in western Russia. Nome was the last stop in North America. The Aleutians do have terrible weather, but it isn't from extreme cold, it's from the turbulence that happens when super cold water from the Arctic mixes with warm water from the gulf stream current. The Aleutians are the breeding ground for most of the weather in the western part of North America. The Aleutians are a brutal place to try and fight a war. Bill

geofflambert -> RE: Fire and ice (5/8/2012 6:26:47 AM)
Does this mean I can blame Sarah Palin for this f***ing weather here in St. Louis?

bradfordkay -> RE: Fire and ice (5/8/2012 6:40:30 AM)
I will say that the operational losses for the squadrons I have stationed in the Aleutians and Alaska have not been anywhere near as high as I expected. I do not know if this means the game has it wrong, or right - as I don't know how they compare to the actual operational losses for units stationed in these regions.

LoBaron -> RE: Fire and ice (5/8/2012 7:00:28 AM)
Nothing wrong with the Aleuthians in general as far as my knowledge goes. They islands are open for shipping most of the time even in the cold half of the year, and if not, it is due to storms or fog, and not because of ice. Even if it gets cold enough the high swells and strong currents prevent ice to form over wide areas. If you want to critizise progress possible in such an area, which is feasible, then you are critizising a problem present in all stock scenarios (PJH and Canoe are playing stock scen #2): Too high transport capability, which greatly enhances tha ability to relocate troops fast, and supply them equally fast, and too high mission frequency on air ops. Both have more or less been adressed in DaBabes. I do not quite understand the fuss about this with regards to PZH and Canoerebels war. They are playing scen #2 with reliable US torps ON FFS. That has not got anything to do with realism. Rather think of it as a very good game of chess.

mike scholl 1 -> RE: Fire and ice (5/8/2012 2:43:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wdolson The Aleutians do have terrible weather, but it isn't from extreme cold, it's from the turbulence that happens when super cold water from the Arctic mixes with warm water from the gulf stream current. The Aleutians are the breeding ground for most of the weather in the western part of North America. The Aleutians are a brutal place to try and fight a war. Bill Had an Uncle that spent most of the war there. According to him, Bill's being kind about the weather. It's not "severe" like Siberia or central Alaska..., just miserable and subject to radical change with little or no warning. Cold, warm, clear, storm, pea soup fog, and winds varying from calm to 60 miles per hour. And then in the Afternoon.... What it did was make planning anything of more than an hour's duration a total "crapshoot". American logistics could get supply to almost anywhere..., but USING it in the Aleutians to do anything of military significance was another story.

Alfred -> RE: Fire and ice (5/8/2012 4:07:21 PM)
geofflambert, I don't read Panzerjaeger's AAR so I'm not exactly across the issues which concern you. You may however consider the following comments to have value. 1. The area which appears to concern you is located within the northern Cold Zone. 2. Winter in the northern Cold Zone lasts 4 months, November - February inclusive. The southern Cold Zone winter is May - August inclusive. 3. Other than in te Cold Zones (and to a limited degree the area affected by the monsoon) the game engine does not model the different seasons. 3. Section 12.0 of the manual comments on the impact of a Cold Zone on operations. 4. Operating in a Cold Zone during winter results in the following negative operations: (a) ships suffer operational system damage at double the normal rate (b) base construction takes twice as long (c) air units fly 25% fewer aircraft on strike missions (d) LCUs conducting a seaborne invasion suffer 3 times normal losses 5. Operate TFs in the horizontal line of hexes which abuts into the impassable ice region and the TF gets stuck. Think of it as being trapped in ice. 6. Quite a few of the bases in the area have a port SPS of zero. That of course imposses a significant penalty on building up the port and when combined with the cost of constructing during winter, it is no mean effort required to build up the ports. More than anything else, it is the size of ports which most affects the rate at which supply depots can be built up. In a sense, these 0 port SPS represent the logistical difficulties in maintaining operations. 7. I am most definitely not a supporter of the often expressed view that the game should be played with Advanced Weather Off. With Advanced Weather turned On even though the game engine handles weather effects somewhat simplistically, some account is made of the difficult weather conditions found in the northern Cold Zone. Players who have it turned off are artificially bypassing the impact of real world weather conditions in the area. In short, to answer your basic concerns I do believe the devs have, within the contraints of the legacy game engine, attempted to represent the difficulties of fighting in the area. You may consider that the obstacles created are inadequate but it would be wrong to think that the specific unique obstacles are not represented at all in the game. Certainly the devs should not be held accountable in those instances where the players themselves have nullified the planted obstacles. Alfred

geofflambert -> RE: Fire and ice (5/8/2012 8:40:30 PM)
Thanks very much Alfred. It would seem I have no grounds for complaint about the game then. Thanks LoBaron, next time I set up a PBEM I will militate for going with DaBabes.

LoBaron -> RE: Fire and ice (5/9/2012 6:36:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: geofflambert Thanks LoBaron, next time I set up a PBEM I will militate for going with DaBabes. Me too. [;)] That said, you can still fight a "historical" war in stock scen #1, but this requires both players to act within historical constraints in general, and limit themselves with houserulse where feasible. Moves to remote locations with valuable ressources are supported by the simplified logistics enabling the player to keep far away garissons in supply. DaBabes C is my current favoute, because it adresses the problem by limiting the transport capability. For true historical feel the best play would probably be DBB C, but you need a separate life for that. For most people DaBabes Light will do. quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred 7. I am most definitely not a supporter of the often expressed view that the game should be played with Advanced Weather Off. With Advanced Weather turned On even though the game engine handles weather effects somewhat simplistically, some account is made of the difficult weather conditions found in the northern Cold Zone. Players who have it turned off are artificially bypassing the impact of real world weather conditions in the area. Fully agree. Advanced weather ON tackles the too high average mission frequency in most areas of the map. It comes with a decrease in mission "reliability" as well, which is a feat I personally like, but I also understand that many players don�t. "Advanced weather ON means bad weather all the time" is an urban legend by the way.

1275psi -> RE: Fire and ice (5/9/2012 7:27:56 AM)
Now thats why these forums have so many good folks Someone expresses an opinion some one else says........well not exactly explains nicely, lucidly why another backs that up first person says, OH, I see And thankyou! There ARE still sane people on the planet, thank God!

geofflambert -> RE: Fire and ice (5/9/2012 3:48:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 1275psi Now thats why these forums have so many good folks Someone expresses an opinion some one else says........well not exactly explains nicely, lucidly why another backs that up first person says, OH, I see And thankyou! There ARE still sane people on the planet, thank God! I would disabuse you of that opinion right now. I am insane and often poorly behaved!

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