game killing bug? (Full Version)

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vonpaul -> game killing bug? (3/24/2012 8:34:32 AM)

I've just encountered something really weird in my multiplayer game.

Its 1st of March 1940 and as Germany I've gone from 20PP in one turn to -490PP in the next. I am getting about 180PP/turn (after upkeep).

I noticed that the following German events have fired in the past turn.

-German french partisans - we must respond.
-Germany in production rises went with this is great news
-German in the war economy causes internal tension - went with convince them

What has happened?

JLPOWELL -> RE: game killing bug? (3/24/2012 8:50:49 AM)

Not a bug a [&:]'Feature'[&:] its a 'Game killing event'. PBEM games are plagued with them you get no choice and sometimes the Ai (yes A little i) makes a [:@][X(]really bad[X(][:@] choice and it can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. This one (war economy) takes a WHOLE bunch of your $$$$ ... my condolences.[:(]

Razz -> RE: game killing bug? (3/24/2012 9:02:47 AM)

Don't worry... it was a good choice by the AI.

If you do not pay 500 PP you will end up paying more in the long run.

The Allies have the same problem: UK with unrest event and Soviets with Industrialization USA with supporting war in the Pacific

gwgardner -> RE: game killing bug? (3/24/2012 4:21:56 PM)

It's not a game killing event. It is definitely a major disruption in German production plans. Essentially, it puts the Germans two months behind in production plans.

Represents a fervor of unrest in Germany over the continuing war. A very realistic what-if event.

And as Razz indicated, if you don't take the big PP hit up front, you get increased social unrest repeatedly later on. In my game, I took the latter choice, and have twice had followup events increasing my social unrest.

Razz -> RE: game killing bug? (3/24/2012 7:26:07 PM)

You collect less PP when you have social unrest. Hence, you loose X PP for every turn until unrest is zero.

It is a sliding scale that diminishes over time.

However, soon after you recover the event pops up again and if you don't pay it you loose some PP for for a few turns. This feature has changed or I have modified it a few times to test results over the last year. If I remember correctly, sometimes it can pop up again before your social unrest has reached zero.

If I remember correctly at one time... the longer you delay, then the cost to subside the unrest increases. For example: SU increase 5% loose X PP over a few turns, then when it pops up again the cost is 550 PP to subside.

I don't remember what it is now. It's okay to delay it. The most I've ever delayed it is 3 or perhaps 4 turns.

When your Germany... it's like Hitler ordered you to do something with your resources so your plans get pushed back.

When your the UK it's the damn meddling of Churchill again! He was never satisfied with bringing the USA into the war and escalating it further like bombing Berlin. He just likes to meddle into everything, then he invites you over for a cup of tea only to see him bare naked getting out of the tub.

JLPOWELL -> RE: game killing bug? (3/25/2012 5:12:40 AM)

It is IDIOTIC as is the undocumented force limit hit you take when you hit some 'threshold' and your maintenance goes up and bankrupts you (going into negative cash flow effectively cripples you) The events add a completely random element to PBEM which as I encounter it effectively RUINS the game experience. The events themselves are not always completely stupid (but mostly IMO when other mechanisms could be used to affect gameplay)but not having control is. As is having an event cause you to go over the units threshold. REALLY bad is events are NOT documented in any way outside deconstructing the xml which for me would be too much like work, and SERIOUSLY is that what an end user should have to do to know what the 'rules' are. SERIOUSLY???


The game has many more undocumented gotchas every time I play it I hit a different one. Need I deconstruct the xml events files just to find out what cow pie I am going to step into next? I am not into modding and have no desire to go into the configuration code to find out which weird random thing will strike next.

doomtrader -> RE: game killing bug? (3/25/2012 7:37:09 AM)

I think that Churchill would gave the British Crown to know what will happen next day.

I do agree that the upkeep events is not the best solution at it's current stage, so this is why we are going to make it a full feature for the next patch.

JLPOWELL -> RE: game killing bug? (3/25/2012 8:16:17 AM)

Doom, I (and I am sure others) really appreciate that the game is tune able and is being improved. The more I see of 'events' however the less I like using this approach for just about everything they touch.

Main problems are:
Undocumented - They just pop up Easily fixed (needs some resource allocation but a readme file would do the trick)

VERY large and immediate (game outcome changing) effects. -

Some examples of the most disruptive events are:

USSR collapse; There must be a better way to model USSR poor effectiveness vrs GE at outset of conflict

Any big $$ event when money is tight which effectively prevents units from being reinforced (on the other side I don't care much for the dungeon treasure given out for conquest BIG. immediate cash prizes for capturing bombed out cities.... Really?) [8D] Not to Mock excessively (well maybe just a bit...) Its just like that credit card commercial. "Bombing the %$#% out of Stalingrad 400 tons of bombs and 2000 tons of fuel; Shelling the %$#% out of Stalingrad and assaulting with infantry and tanks LOTS of bullets bombs gas and men... Finding huge cache of unused supplies and resources (immediately available) in in the rubble ... priceless (completely implausable but priceless[:D])
BTW Any big $$ event becomes even more unbalancing if playing at Hard difficulty, they can shut down an entire economy for many turns.

Tweaker events to 'force history' when game system will not support the action (Crete and Norway 'miracle' invasions) Norway in particular required much luck and totally incompetence on by the Norwegians (do we want to model that) Adding these if's do give some historical flavor but could REALLY unbalance the game IMO. And if these why not others? Operation Felix to assault Gibraltar was no less a long shot than the para drops near Oslo (Spain never agreed but it would have to be considered as 'likely' This kind stuff shouldn't be in the game except as select-able options perhaps.

Overall IMO as currently running turning off ALL events would not be a totally bad thing. (Vichy and USSR effectiveness would need to be addressed. But most events appear to detract more than they add.

In PBEM the not being able to 'pick your poison' is absolutely awful and unbalances the game very significantly. (literally these can decide the outcome of the game). Simplifying the sequence of play could easily address this. (This is essentially a two player game in any case). So Axis moves (all countries at once) Axis event picks (resolve immediate events apply economic or 'response' events next turn) Allies move same thing USSR moves same thing.

PBEM is also plagued by countries getting 'out of sequence' Simply having all nations in an alliance moving at the same time would fix this as well. Human could control all neutrals AFTER they join an alliance. (AI should handle them before this)

Flaviusx -> RE: game killing bug? (3/25/2012 4:24:05 PM)

The Soviet collapse is indeed excessive and frankly not necessary given how strong panzer corps are. Reducing the entire Red Army to 1% efficiency for 10 turns is over the top.

Razz -> RE: game killing bug? (3/25/2012 4:58:47 PM)

Try the Third Reich... You will be surprised.

We shall lead under Stalin. [&o]

gwgardner -> RE: game killing bug? (3/25/2012 10:55:46 PM)

I think I'm right that if you want to turn off events, simply remove the event files to an alternative location.

Razz -> RE: game killing bug? (3/26/2012 12:15:11 AM)

No that won't work. [:(]

JL likes to moan allot about the unexpected. The unexpected is not always good. The unexpected may not reveal what the future may be. That is life. Even HOI Victora and Europa have Pop ups. Thats part of the game design. Third Reich has better explanations of what the consequences are for each choice. [:'(]

As GWgardner pointed out... Civil unrest is not a bad feature, all it does is slow down your progress. [:'(]

PBEM was much better in Beta before they went to Slitherine's PBEM +++ system. [:@]
I'm with JL. Since day one, I have been trying to get the design changed as the current system impacts single player games. You are forced to NOT play countries that are in your Alliance, as if you do, you will not see all combat and results. Very wonky!!! [8|]

Norway and Denmark were changed to make the game simpler. [:@]

Crete, that's no big deal. A small island that doesn't effect the game at all. [:'(]

As far as the USSR is concerned JL has admitted he has never played past 100 turns. [X(] It's after that where the USSR shines. [:D]

It's only ten turns that are effected by Barbarossa and it's no big deal. The main problem is the after effects which can last almost two years. [X(][X(]

You should try the Third Reich if you want the USSR effectiveness and after effects addressed. [8D]

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