AV Chitose (Full Version)

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Cuthalin -> AV Chitose (3/18/2012 10:01:07 AM)

Whilst landing troops with the AV Chitose (IJN) + AP's my TF was subjected to an air attack. No carriers were any where near, but 8 A6M5's defended the TF! This is not the first time, so my question is...
Does the Chitose or any other IJN AV have an unseen airgroup?.

I know some of these were Seaplane Tenders but A6M5's?




Capt. Harlock -> RE: AV Chitose (3/20/2012 2:16:27 AM)

quote:

Does the Chitose or any other IJN AV have an unseen airgroup?.

I know some of these were Seaplane Tenders but A6M5's?


Two possibilities: one, the F1M "Pete" was a floatplane but was occasionally used as a fighter. It is not listed, since PacWar has only a limited number of aircraft types, so perhaps the A6M5 is the closest substitute.

Two, the Chitose was converted into a CVL later on in the war. What's the game date?




Cuthalin -> RE: AV Chitose (3/21/2012 9:55:02 PM)

it is Jan 42 and we attacked Canton I. so it is well before the conversion. At this time she was only dealing with Bi-Plane Seaplanes.
I lost a couple of planes to the Wildcats that were there, but cannot see any air group showing for any AV's, so have no ability to change them or know if I can replenish them.
If they do have an air group, it might change the tactics a little, in the early months of the campaign.

I would be interested to hear feedback from anyone else that had unexpected air cover.




zeke99 -> RE: AV Chitose (3/23/2012 1:43:48 AM)

It's a bug. The sqn assigned to the CVE conversion is used to early.




Capt. Harlock -> RE: AV Chitose (3/23/2012 5:41:26 AM)

quote:

It's a bug. The sqn assigned to the CVE conversion is used to early.


Now that you mention it, the A6M5 doesn't appear until mid-1943. Even if there were carriers in the area, those planes shouldn't have shown up.




bradk -> RE: AV Chitose (5/25/2012 7:03:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

It's a bug. The sqn assigned to the CVE conversion is used to early.


Now that you mention it, the A6M5 doesn't appear until mid-1943. Even if there were carriers in the area, those planes shouldn't have shown up.


"Availability" is not a single setting in the data file.

For an airgroup, the choices are base location (active now), ship location (active if the ship is active, otherwise active when the ship activates) or turns to arrival (applicable only to land based airgroups). An airgroup having an aircraft under these settings does not make the aircraft avaiable to other airgroups on the aircraft change menu or available for produciton on the factory change menu.

The aircraft data file has entries for available or turns to arrival. When available the aircraft appears on the factory change menu. When there are aircraft in the pool, it appears on the airgroup aircraft change menu.

When a ship is active, any airgroups assigned to it are active (see above "active when the ship activates"). So even though Chitose is not yet a carrier, and its airgroups have aircraft that are not yet available for production or selection by other airgroups, those aircraft are active becuase the ship is active.

Another example of this is that in some scenarios, Essex Class CVs activate with F6Fs before they can be selected for produciton. The reason is the airgroups are assigned F6Fs, the airgroups activate with the CVs, and activation of an airgroup with a particular aircraft does not over ride the aircraft data file setting for turns to arrival. All dates must be coordinated for availability to work as is appropriate.

The only interconnection among arrival date for an aircraft, activation of a factory to build it, and airgroups arriving with that aircraft is that aircraft arrival date will prompt the opening of a factory if one is assigned to produce the aircraft. Nothing else is connected.




Cuthalin -> RE: AV Chitose (6/2/2012 8:31:25 PM)

Well after a small experiment, ALL 3 Nisshin class AV Chitose, Nisshin and Mizumo,have a small A6M5 fighter group at the start of the game. It appears not to replenish,either in port or by TF. The Torpedo bombers may be active but the air groups are not able to be used offensively.
I added them to a CVTF but saw no additional offensive aircraft.

So BradK is correct, this is a programmed Activation issue.
But worth knowing for early landings against bases likely to have Fighter or Fighter bomber protection.

Next experiment is to see if the AV are removed when the CVL upgrades arrive.




Capt. Harlock -> RE: AV Chitose (6/3/2012 8:10:35 PM)

quote:

ALL 3 Nisshin class AV Chitose, Nisshin and Mizumo,have a small A6M5 fighter group at the start of the game. It appears not to replenish,either in port or by TF.
[...]
So BradK is correct, this is a programmed Activation issue.
But worth knowing for early landings against bases likely to have Fighter or Fighter bomber protection.

Next experiment is to see if the AV are removed when the CVL upgrades arrive.


The failure to replenish is probably because there are no reserve A6M5's in the early part of the game. I imagine there was a design decision to use the A6M5 so as not to give the Japanese player the long range of the A6M2, which would have been doubly strange coming from an AV.

And yes, checking on the CVL upgrades sounds like a useful inquiry.




bradk -> RE: AV Chitose (6/4/2012 3:31:56 PM)

The ships convert from AVs to CVLs. At some point the AVs disappear and later... don't know how long or if there is a delay... CVLs with the same name appear.

I believe there was no design decision involved in the A6M2/A6M5 situation. The CVLs should have the A6M5 when they become active. I read something at one point that indicates the designers may not have realized until after the scenario was in player hands that the AVs had active airgroups.

While the availability of a bit of fighter cover from AVs for transport TFs sounds like a good idea, players may highly regret losing one of these AVs and with it, a CVL they could have had later in the game.




Cuthalin -> RE: AV Chitose (8/9/2012 10:38:59 PM)

O.K. September 1944 Full help Japanese.

CVL Chitose and CVL Mizuho have arrived. They have 18 A6M5 and 12 B7A each. The AV Chitose and AV Mizuho have been removed as expected.

BUT...
The CVE Kamikawa Maru (16 + 11 aircraft) which has also arrived has not led to the removal of its AV! so i currently have both in a Transport task force.

I Also have 2 NEW CV's, IKOMA and ASO that were historically never finished!

Looking forward to the rest of this game's surprise arrivals.




bradk -> RE: AV Chitose (8/10/2012 4:55:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuthalin

O.K. September 1944 Full help Japanese.

CVL Chitose and CVL Mizuho have arrived. They have 18 A6M5 and 12 B7A each. The AV Chitose and AV Mizuho have been removed as expected.

BUT...
The CVE Kamikawa Maru (16 + 11 aircraft) which has also arrived has not led to the removal of its AV! so i currently have both in a Transport task force.

I Also have 2 NEW CV's, IKOMA and ASO that were historically never finished!

Looking forward to the rest of this game's surprise arrivals.


In my current game the AVs went away Jan 43. I assume yours have been out of the game for a while, rather than instant conversion as implied.

Never finished ships... well, the Matrix version is speculative since its designed to provide for the possiblity the war lasts through 1946.

Max help makes various things availalbe earlier.




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