Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (Full Version)

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Joel Billings -> Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 7:14:02 AM)

Our next game will be War in the West 43-45 which will be the same scale as WitE and will include a more robust air game with the land campaigns and strategic bombing. After that we plan on War in the West 40 (which will include Norway, France, England and the Med, and add a new detailed naval system) and War in the West 41-42 which will focus on the Med. War in the West 43-45 will have campaigns that start in the summer of 43 and the summer of 44, as well as shorter scenarios. We have an alpha map for all of Europe (including the Soviet Union to east of the Urals), North Africa and the Middle East). We plan to use this map to eventually produce a WitE 2.0 which would fit in with the War in the West products and allow us to fill in a complete War in Europe. Of course, this will take many years.

Most of this information has been given out before in various forum posts, but I wanted to post this again to clear things up. I'm sure many of you have questions about the details, but I'd ask you hold those questions and let us focus on development. We'll give you more information in the future as we move along in development and you'll have plenty of time to ask questions.




gradenko_2000 -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 7:30:10 AM)

Perhaps this may be too early to ask, but are you planning WITW-40 and WITW-41-42 to be full-priced games, or scenario packs more in the vein of Don to the Danube?




Micke II -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 7:39:44 AM)

Thanks for the clarification. I will follow these developments being interested by all of 3. I hope the Axis player will be able to manage himself the industry and the production. It's a important component of the game which add more unpredictibility. A system of political points to organise transfer of units from one front to another will bring also uncertainity. What is the time frame for the release of these simulations ?




Da_Huge_D -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 7:39:59 AM)

Thanks for all your effort for making best wwii operational game ever. I dont mind if witw is full priced or even more lol. The re playability and all things like that are even more than any casual mainstream games on market. Just take my money, i will love witw as much as wite i know it already. Ofcourse there is always bugs and things like that at first but i understand that because those are hell of projects.. Please dont stop what youre doing.




JocMeister -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 8:43:44 AM)

Joel,

You talk about a new naval and air system. Those are welcome things and essential to make the western front and the Med work. But what complexity are we talking about here? WITP scale down to individual squadrons/planes and ships or a more "general control". I for one would love to have a system similar to AE. The current air and naval model in WITE is well, not really satisfactory to be completly honest. What are you planning to do?

A mold between the AE air and naval model and WITE land model would be a dream come true. [:)]

EDIT:
Will you also implement a proper supply system in this game? By proper I mean one that actually mirrors the real situation the Allies faced in 44. This game will need it or you will have the allies in Berlin by late 44. WITE was, ehm, lacking in this aspect aswell.




randallw -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 10:16:45 AM)

If Gary dies before all of this is done i'll be pretty unhappy at him.




Timmeh -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 12:21:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

If Gary dies before all of this is done i'll be pretty unhappy at him.


Matrix will be alright though, they ordered the boxed version.

I would pre-buy all these titles if it ment Gary could go out and get a coding robot to expedite the final product....




Baelfiin -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 2:02:16 PM)

Sticky and lock this thing so the current status will be easily seen, and not masked by a lot of side chatter.




Kubel -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 3:40:55 PM)

Can't wait.[sm=character0272.gif]




gids -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 11:25:34 PM)

idd gary and his team need to clone themselves




Kamil -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/2/2012 11:55:20 PM)

Will WitW take logistics seriously?




Naughteous Maximus -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 8:45:45 AM)

It would be nice if WitW starts in Tunisia in '43 and continue on to Sicily, Italy, and so forth. I would hope that it would be possible to evacuate some units before the collapse of axis forces in N.Africa.




nate25 -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 6:54:23 PM)

I'm a relatively new guy here (currently playing WitP-AE and BftB-HttR) and these games
really, really appeal to me. A couple questions:

1. Will the obvious pro-soviet bias be toned down in follow-on games? I like to soak up the AARs as they play out and there are some big problems with the sovs, IMO. (Morale, etc.)

2. How will you deal with scale? Any ideas yet?

3. Will there be a more detailed naval game? Maybe not on a WitP level, but something less abstracted for the U-boat war, for example?


Thanks,
Nate




Flaviusx -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 7:30:08 PM)

I'm wondering how WITW can possibly have a pro Soviet bias, myself. Since that game has, you know, no Soviets.

We will get to argue about whether it has a German or Allied bias.




nate25 -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 7:45:58 PM)

Sorry, should have specified WitE, WitW, etc.

I know it's far out in the future, but I was thinking of when the games are linked ultimately.

I smell your sarcasm here. Replies like this are one of the reasons I hesitate to spend the money now, and I know I'm not alone.

To an outsider looking in, the pro-sovs seem to be very resistant to any real change on issues like morale, hvy, etc.

I have no agenda here. I play Allied as well as Japan in WitP-AE, so I'm no particular FB of one side or the other. I would enjoy the sov side as much as the German, as long as it's not set up to be sov victory no matter what.

Please keep your sarcasm and refer me to someone with a little more of a constructive answer.

Nate




Flaviusx -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 7:51:23 PM)

You can't possibly expect a constructive answer to a nonconstructive question. It's of the "when did you stop beating your wife" variety and forces the person responding to it to accept the premise put forward.

The proper way to respond to this is, yes, sarcasm.







nate25 -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 8:15:21 PM)

Obviously, I've run right smack into one of the pro-sov folks I'm reading about in the posts.

There were other questions in my original post as well as the "bias" question. Any one else have any thoughts on the direction they might be taking?

Thanks,
Nate




Flaviusx -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 8:22:18 PM)

They turned down my suggestion to land the Red Army in Normandy, alas. But I'm devious and will find a way to spoil the game, don't fear.





nate25 -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 8:38:04 PM)

Wow.

Whatever.

I don't claim great knowledge of the game. I don't even own it yet. But as far as the AARs and other posts, there is a great deal that can be gleaned from them. And the bias is one, IMO.

Outright attacks coupled with an unwarranted superior attitude isn't good business.

At any rate, any other answers would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Nate




Joel Billings -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 8:41:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

I'm a relatively new guy here (currently playing WitP-AE and BftB-HttR) and these games
really, really appeal to me. A couple questions:

1. Will the obvious pro-soviet bias be toned down in follow-on games? I like to soak up the AARs as they play out and there are some big problems with the sovs, IMO. (Morale, etc.)

2. How will you deal with scale? Any ideas yet?

3. Will there be a more detailed naval game? Maybe not on a WitP level, but something less abstracted for the U-boat war, for example?


Thanks,
Nate



1. We strongly disagree that there is a pro-Soviet or pro-Axis bias in WitE. A few believe this, but let's please keep that out of this WitW thread (feel free to debate it elsewhere). Since version 1.05 and now with 1.06, we think the game is fairly well balanced.

2. Scale is the same for WitW 43-45 and all WitW/WitE/WiE games, 10 miles per hex, weekly turns.

3. Some small but abstract changes to naval rules to account for contested sea zones and amphibous invasions will be in WitW 43-45. Major logistics changes to deal with issues of supplies over beaches and through ports, as well as more detailed rail net/logistic depot rules. WitW 40 and WitW 41-43 will include a much more detailed naval game, but not at the level of detail of WitP-AE. Gary will be designing an entirely new naval system for those games that will provide a major naval component necessary to do the a possible Sea Lion, actions in the Med, and eventually an entire War in Europe. It will be weekly turns not daily like WitP, so do not expect it to be at the same detail level. But Gary has a good track record of designing systems that give the right feel to the player. We eventually will be dealing with U-boats, just can't say now exactly how.




nate25 -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 9:03:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings


quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

I'm a relatively new guy here (currently playing WitP-AE and BftB-HttR) and these games
really, really appeal to me. A couple questions:

1. Will the obvious pro-soviet bias be toned down in follow-on games? I like to soak up the AARs as they play out and there are some big problems with the sovs, IMO. (Morale, etc.)

2. How will you deal with scale? Any ideas yet?

3. Will there be a more detailed naval game? Maybe not on a WitP level, but something less abstracted for the U-boat war, for example?


Thanks,
Nate



1. We strongly disagree that there is a pro-Soviet or pro-Axis bias in WitE. A few believe this, but let's please keep that out of this WitW thread (feel free to debate it elsewhere). Since version 1.05 and now with 1.06, we think the game is fairly well balanced.

We'll agree to disagree. Fair enough? Truly, my intention was not to engage in a "shouting match" with this. . . individual.

2. Scale is the same for WitW 43-45 and all WitW/WitE/WiE games, 10 miles per hex, weekly turns.


3. Some small but abstract changes to naval rules to account for contested sea zones and amphibous invasions will be in WitW 43-45. Major logistics changes to deal with issues of supplies over beaches and through ports, as well as more detailed rail net/logistic depot rules. WitW 40 and WitW 41-45 will include a much more detailed naval game, but not at the level of detail of WitP-AE. Gary will be designing an entirely new naval system for those games that will provide a major naval component necessary to do the a possible Sea Lion, actions in the Med, and eventually an entire War in Europe. It will be weekly turns not daily like WitP, so do not expect it to be at the same detail level. But Gary has a good track record of designing systems that give the right feel to the player. We eventually will be dealing with U-boats, just can't say now exactly how.


The rest sounds great!! I've been waiting a long time for a truly "continental" game (since the days of GDW).

Thanks for the info,
Nate




Erik Rutins -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 10:28:13 PM)

Hi Nate,

I also disagree regarding the bias, but if you want to start a new thread please point us to the bias you see, as someone who is reading the AARs but has not played the game? Do you realize that player skill and experience can make a huge difference in how each side performs?

Regards,

- Erik




IronDuke -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/3/2012 11:19:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

2. Scale is the same for WitW 43-45 and all WitW/WitE/WiE games, 10 miles per hex, weekly turns.


I'm not a wargame designer, so I am not best placed to comment, but I don't think you'll pull it off at this scale.
I sincerely hope (and don't doubt given your track record) that you'll prove me wrong, and this is a well meaning, well intended and very respectful comment, but...

In the summer of 1944, the Germans didn't have enough forces in western Europe to defend any length of front. They held onto France for 3 months because they could rope off and contain a bridgehead, which meant they could generate a high unit density against the Allies and their overwhelming firepower with the limited forces they had.

At your distance scales, the Germans and Allies face off against each other across 8-10 hexes in Normandy.

If the Germans spread out across France to gain more operational room, then they are overwhelmed in short order. For there to be any sort of western front campaign, therefore, the Germans need to rope off a bridgehead and I don't know that WITW 43-45 can get truly operational within your time and distance constraints. In other words, the entire Normandy campaign at these scales is ten turns across ten hexes. Once the Allied player broke out and gained room for some manouvre in France, the Germans would be essentially beaten anyway, so it becomes slightly beside the point. 10 hexes is not an operational wargame IM (very) HO.

Italy is even more problematic. You can have operational timescales here (100 turns?), but the Gustav line makes for an operational wargame around 8 hexes wide. In other words, the game is going to be largely devoid of any form of manouvre, and instead be generally single or dual hex offensives with Corp sized counters.

As a follow up, I think the widest part of the Bulge the Germans created in the Ardennes was about 4-5 hexes across on your scales.

In short (and I repeat very respectfully) there's no manouvre at these scales for WITW. To get some semblance of manourvre, you can't give the Germans more forces and you can't somehow make Normandy bigger, but you can make the scale smaller so creating the manouvre by making 100 miles cover more hexes, and making 30 divisional counters become 150 regimental ones or 500 battalion sized ones.

I fully appreciate that would give you some issues when you came to synchronise and join up the various titles, but with computing power what it is, these days, those would surely not be insurmountable.

quote:

WitW 40 and WitW 41-43 will include a much more detailed naval game, but not at the level of detail of WitP-AE. Gary will be designing an entirely new naval system for those games that will provide a major naval component necessary to do the a possible Sea Lion, actions in the Med, and eventually an entire War in Europe.


For Sea Lion to be possible, you will need a "disband the RN" option available to the AXIS player. Allied fanboys will create quite a stir about that...;-)

Very, very respectfully yours,
IronDuke




carlkay58 -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/4/2012 1:48:45 AM)

The only way that WitW could have a Soviet bias is to make the Axis supermen in the West and thus prove, beyond a doubt, that the Soviets won WWII with little or no help from the West. I don't see that happening . . .

It is a daunting and long road they have mapped out for themselves and I wish them good fortune in it!




Micke II -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/4/2012 7:21:37 AM)

I am very skeptical about the scale envisaged for War in the West.

Compare to the East front the Western front was very tiny in term of distance. With a 10 miles/hex there will be a huge concentration of units in a very limited space on a limited map, offering little opportunities for movement and exploitation of opportunities unless this simulation will be played at a strategic level and not a tactical or operational level.
Deception and knowledge of the german battle order have also played a huge role in the success of the Normandy landing. How do you will deal with ghost armies and secret intelligence services ?




HHI -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/4/2012 6:40:06 PM)

Deception was also very important on the East Front. The Red Army referred to it as "Maskirovka." For Operation Bagration (the destruction of Army Group Center), they utilized numerous maskirovka techniques to convince the Germans that the offensive was going to be in the Ukraine, with the result that almost all Panzer forces were in the south. To provide a sense of scale, Bagration resulted in German losses equal to all forces opposing the Allies in France. I have no idea how this concept could be represented in either game.




Berkut -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/4/2012 7:34:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HHI

Deception was also very important on the East Front. The Red Army referred to it as "Maskirovka." For Operation Bagration (the destruction of Army Group Center), they utilized numerous maskirovka techniques to convince the Germans that the offensive was going to be in the Ukraine, with the result that almost all Panzer forces were in the south. To provide a sense of scale, Bagration resulted in German losses equal to all forces opposing the Allies in France. I have no idea how this concept could be represented in either game.



Uhh, that is simply not true.

Bagration is commonly accepted to have resulted in approximately 400,000 German casualties (against 600k Soviet). Operation Normandy accounted for about 450,000 German casualties - clearly that would not be possible if there were only 400,000 Germans opposing the Allies in France.

The real damage however was in equipment. The Germans basically had some 10 armored divisions wiped out in Normandy, with the average panzer division after the retreat from Falaise being down to about ten running tanks.

Now, I am not trying to over-state the impact of the Western Front (or understate the primacy of the Eastern Front as the primary front in the war by any means), but I do think the pendulum sometimes swings a bit too far the other way, with no real realization of just how brutal the fighting was in June, July, and August of '44 in the West.




Walloc -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/4/2012 7:49:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HHI
To provide a sense of scale, Bagration resulted in German losses equal to all forces opposing the Allies in France. I have no idea how this concept could be represented in either game.


Well, you use general terms so u might have meant some thing narrower than what u actually write.
Non the less you might wana read up on OOBs for force levels, statisitical analysis of losses for both Operation Bagration and for the Western front (possibly only Normandy, but u do type allies in france) in the same time span.
Niklas Zetterling have for example made one on the Normandy campaign.

Bagration is generally accepted to last from 22 June too 19 Aug 1944. The struggle in france ofc starts a bit earlier on 6 june. If u willing to give allowance for that i think u'd be very surprised if u look at the losses taken by the german army in france from 6 june to 19/25 aug 1944 and compare them to the german army's losses in Bagration. In particular if u look at equipment losses. Not to speak of the statement that "German losses equal to all forces opposing the Allies in France".

U could start at wiki as they state some of the info and is in some cases based on Niklas Zetterlings analysis among other sources.


Kind regards, ur friendly myth buster

Rasmus




EisenHammer -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/5/2012 1:34:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

Now, I am not trying to over-state the impact of the Western Front (or understate the primacy of the Eastern Front as the primary front in the war by any means), but I do think the pendulum sometimes swings a bit too far the other way, with no real realization of just how brutal the fighting was in June, July, and August of '44 in the West.




Here are some numbers that I got from my books.

German deaths in 1944 on the Eastern front
June 142,079
July 169,881
and August 277,465
for a total of 589,425 Germans deaths.
Source: Overmans

From D-Day to Sept 1st on the Western front the Germans around 70,000 deaths.




Joel Billings -> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 (3/5/2012 1:59:39 AM)

In the early 90s SSI published Gary's Western Front game. IIRC, it had 10 mile hexes and 4 day turns. Like WitW, it included the strategic bombing campaign as well as France and Italy. It used the system that had been used to do Second Front (and later War in Russia), which had been 20 mile hexes and 7 day turns. WitW will indeed feel different in some ways from WitE, and we will no doubt face challenges during development (always do), but it's more than just Normandy, and we believe it will make for an enjoyable game. We're going to give it our best shot.




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