Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (Full Version)

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Michael T -> Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (2/27/2012 9:52:45 AM)

Situation End Turn 3

House Rules:
1. The game ends in May 1945 (However I will suggest we bring this aspect into line with the new Alt CG scenario when released)
2. The Axis Auto Win level is reduced to 260.
3. No Para drops beyond 10 hexes from the front line. No Soviet drops prior to the blizzard.

This is my second encounter with Robert. In the first game we played he was German. We have switched sides. Robert is much more experienced with the Soviets than Germans, this will be his 5th or 6th game against a human as Soviet. He hasn't lost as the Soviets. So I am expecting a tough fight.

This will be the first time for me where I will not be doubling up my rail dudes (apart from the very first turn). Its just not worth it anymore. I expect that this will reduce the maximum extent of advance in the summer of 41 considerably.

Robert has applied a mixture of defensive techniques to date, checkerboard in the south, multiple adjacent lines (3) at the land bridge and single river lines with multiple units in key hexes. I can't fault it so far. The extended Lvov opening I employed rattled his cage in the south but to his credit he held his ground.

In the north I diverted some units from the drive on Leningrad to secure a pocket around Vitebsk. This will/has slow(ed) the Leningrad drive but my priority is momentum in the centre. A deep drive to the north of Moscow naturally unhinges Leningrad anyway.

So far only 7 arm locked down. But that is not the driving factor. If enough Red Army units are eliminated arm centres must fall as a consequence.

I just got Robert's turn 3 back and the big pocket in the south held as did the Vitebsk pocket. Will check in again probably around turn 6.


[image]local://upfiles/22630/6B402D199FB84388A349A1ABBB92E50A.jpg[/image]




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (2/27/2012 9:53:34 AM)

More

[image]local://upfiles/22630/4074B2B256264D47ABA5530478FF6C23.jpg[/image]




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (2/27/2012 9:54:08 AM)

And more

[image]local://upfiles/22630/38472ABC82884240B8E9DA8A8869ED70.jpg[/image]




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (2/27/2012 9:54:44 AM)

And again

[image]local://upfiles/22630/E6AC3288679946FF9F492EE6D7D002F4.jpg[/image]




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (2/27/2012 9:55:23 AM)

Losses

[image]local://upfiles/22630/42F4B0AAA5BC4445A27194D561BDABA2.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (2/27/2012 10:33:33 AM)

quote:

Robert is much more experienced with the Soviets than Germans, this will be his 5th or 6th game against a human as Soviet. He hasn't lost as the Soviets. So I am expecting a tough fight.


As we have both experienced, Roberts games vs poor German players can be a real plus for us. What worked vs less experianced german players is not going to help him vs good German player.

I am expecting a white flag by end of summer 41.

As this is generally the case vs 6-0 ish Russian players, as their tactics tend to be fighting forward. Which works great vs poor Germans, but is a nice summer lunch for good German players and followed by a joy ride east for panzers.

Pelton




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/8/2012 7:17:35 AM)

End T6

This game is not decided yet Pelton. I have a feeling this one will require a 42 Campaign to finish off Ivan. Robert is proving resilient and after the initial shock of the extended Lvov gambit he has recovered well. He is no novice. But as always I am confident of final victory. It will be nice to have to plan and conduct a 42 campaign. I have only had one other game get to 1942 as German and that finished with a snow offensive in March 42.

Anyway, while I am still making good progress east it is being hampered by the lack of infantry support. The next few turns should see more infantry available at the front. Many are still trekking east after finishing off pockets.

This turn I failed to close the pocket around Bryansk :( but I have trapped 8 Arm there. The Soviets must withdraw from the impending encirclement or face certain encirclement next turn. A nice pocket just east of Poltava but it will probably get broken this turn. But I have Inf close by now to secure it next turn. Lot's of Inf available at Leningrad now so some progress should be made there soon. I will be able to employ some grinding :)

Overall I am happy with the state of affairs. I have opened up the area to the south east of Kaluga which will facilitate the link with AGS.

Tula, Kharkov and Stalino are all now threatened. So some hard choices for Ivan as not many new units roll in over the course of turns 6-9.

By T9 I should be at Kharkov and Tula, perhaps have Leningrad in peril and be very close to Stalino and hopefully ~2.1 million Soviet casualties. That would be good. We shall see.

So far 34 Arm and 32 HI captured or locked down.

Back again at end T9.


[image]local://upfiles/22630/639121326327498B84011D72C4FE77C7.jpg[/image]




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/8/2012 7:18:06 AM)

Losses

[image]local://upfiles/22630/67D0EBAD2DFF443CAE2CC65C63488A45.jpg[/image]




Flaviusx -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/8/2012 6:44:50 PM)

I find your ability to bypass the game's logistics impressive, Micheal T. You've obviously cracked the system. Not sure how exactly, but what you're doing is proof positive the system needs an overhaul.

I'm curious if you could sustain such drives in the absence of HQ buildups. Doubting it.

You should consider switching over to random weather in future games, just to keep things interesting.









Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/8/2012 9:11:37 PM)


I would prefer the term *optimize* over crack, and yet I am still finding ways to get more juice from the lemon.
I have ranted on about the logistics model before. I won't repeat myself. But suffice to say that I am a student of the existing system, I study it to the nth degree.

You are correct about the HQ BU. But without it Germany is kaput. Perhaps something better will emerge in WITW. Some control would be nice.




Pelton -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/9/2012 12:29:47 AM)

Your enemy is just making this to easy for you heheh.

Your AGN advance has nothing to do with logistics as it is about normal. Leningrad on turn 4 is the best I have done, but generally if you can take it by turn 8 to 10 your doing good.

Your AGS advance is about normal over the river turn 6, again down here logistics is really not an issue until the 2nd turn over the river. D-town turn 4, Kharkov turn 6 and Stalino turn 7 is above average. Your enemy foolishly did not run over river and paid for it. I just dont see any kind of defence down here at all.

AGC is what makes your record so good.

Your AGC advance is impressive as Moscow is the game now, because of the manpower crunch. Vs a good russian armament points past 60 is not possible, which leaves the manpower crunch the only game in town vs a good russian.

The center is where your game is better then most by allot. Your really not putting allot of pressure on in the north and the advance in south is good but nothing special.

You have been able to get your enemy off balance and with your understanding of the logistics system the games over as I stated before. Its very easy to tell when your playing someone good and someone who is not.

You have yet to play anyone good as far as I can see.

Hoooper has a game up again looking for Axis, he has same problem as you.

There are a few good russian and german players and allot who think they are.

Very good game plan on your part for sure. Mybee your enemy will pull his head from the axe, but I see zero defensive plan on his part and dont expect to see one heheh







Flaviusx -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/9/2012 2:09:57 AM)

The Soviet made a number of mistakes here (I would run my defense very differently,) but ultimately, the problem is this business of panzer divisions getting 50 mps each turn 6 turns in a row hundreds of miles into the Soviet Union. Kaluga on turn 6, Rostov on turn 6, either of these things is deeply silly.

That's why I'm suggesting that Micheal play a game with the weather turned on. So he might experience something resembling real life logistics along with supply uncertainties instead of this fantasy HQ buildup game he has going on. It is glorious, but it is not war.





Pelton -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/9/2012 2:55:01 AM)

Stopping what he is doing is not easy but can been done.

Kamil, Hoooper, You, TDV and 8421. I am sure there are others that can do the same, but these are the handfull I have played against who know how to slow down the train.

MT is better at it then myself, but it can be stopped.

The big difference from my games and MT's does it in center, his AGN and AGS are all tied into what he is doing in center. Its the big picture that matters really.

At one time I was undefeated, but at some pt you get tired of creaming inexperianced poeple and start looking for poeple with equal or better skills.

At some pt MT will get bored of never getting to 42 and start picking fights with known peeps that have a proven track record vs good peeps.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater until he plays someone that's really good, Flaviusx.

Pelton




Pelton -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/9/2012 2:58:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The Soviet made a number of mistakes here (I would run my defense very differently,) but ultimately, the problem is this business of panzer divisions getting 50 mps each turn 6 turns in a row hundreds of miles into the Soviet Union. Kaluga on turn 6, Rostov on turn 6, either of these things is deeply silly.

That's why I'm suggesting that Micheal play a game with the weather turned on. So he might experience something resembling real life logistics along with supply uncertainties instead of this fantasy HQ buildup game he has going on. It is glorious, but it is not war.





Those can only be done if your muling/chaining and your enemy is just letting you drive east heheh. Rostov turn 9 mybee heheh

I have goten away from muling /chaining and am tring to do the basic ground game with a few HQ BU's, so when I do play a good person I can still win.

Sure I will do the chain game to start, but withen 4 or 5 turns you know if your playing someone good and I can change over to plan B as I did vs M60 and 8421 and still have a good shot at winning the ugly way.




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/18/2012 1:02:27 AM)

T9

Overall very happy with turns 7, 8 and 9. The infantry has finally caught up and is making its presence felt.

North
I finally breached the Luga line last turn and established a large bridgehead. This has resulted in a general Soviet withdrawal to the east of Leningrad. Robert has evacuated Leningrad of all its industry bar the Hvy. So there is no longer any great urgency in taking the place out. I might move out the Mech units soon and send them somewhere else. I have only been operating with 2 Pz and 2 Mot Divs up here since turn 2 so I am happy with the results considering the Mech forces involved. Indirectly the 2 Mech units missing have been operating in the south where large dividends have been paid.

Centre
Things moving somewhat slowly here for a while now. The Soviets are determined to hold Moscow it would seem. I have been content to take the offerings that are presented. That is multiple small pockets each turn that usually include a bag of large quality divisions. It seems my opponent is quite prepared to sacrifice the rest of Russia to save this one city. I don't mind this at all. If I get Moscow it will be late in the campaign, but with 100 Arm in the bag it's not a big priority for me now.

South
On turn 7 the Poltava pocket was expanded to include an even larger one just east of Kharkov. As usual the Soviet player (at least the ones I face) rather than cut a pocket loose threw more chips on the table which just resulted in even more losses. Anyway I had a really tight pocket that I figured was unbreakable but thanks to the hackers I lost my server save and had to redo the move, the result was still a large pocket but not as tight or as big as the original saved one. So missed probably another 10 Divs and a turn lost in cleaning up. So not really a ground hog day. Anyway Ivan un-isolated it. But turn 8 I hit pay dirt. Kharkov and Stalino (plus surrounding cities) all fell with all the Arm factories. 53 Arm in one hit. Not to mention a series of pockets finally sealed shut with around 25 divisions trapped. I just love seeing multiple divisions surrender with 10K-13K each. Ouch.

The south has been the real disaster area for Russia. The numbers of troops and Arm lost has been massive. I think this is a direct result of his focus on with Moscow. I reckon if 6 quality divisions had been sent to the Stalino area from Moscow on turn 7 he would have averted the disaster. And he can easily spare 6 units from Moscow. Anyway this turn he has run. Desperate to now save Rostov and its Arm. I can only watch this turn as the Panzers have finally run dry.

It's interesting to note how some players think. Robert was hell bent on taking Moscow from me in our previous game when I played Russian. Now he is just as determined to hold it as Russian. I think this is a crack that I can/have exploited.

Back again T12


[image]local://upfiles/22630/DA93CBBE46D04FA28CC8A679A689C817.jpg[/image]




Pelton -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/18/2012 1:17:07 AM)

Get AGA released this is HUGE during blizzard and 42.

You have the armament crunch going and can seal it during 42 with Moscow and the manpower crunch.

You still have more then enough time to take Moscow during snow.

Leningrad needs to fall also before blizzard.

Your enemy seems to be the best todate you have fased. If Moscow falls and he plays on, you will find 42 as fun as 41 hehe




Farfarer -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/18/2012 2:47:14 AM)

You may wish to isolate and not capture major popluation centres and permanently remove that manower from the game. Lvov city ( at 22 ? is now a no brainer - it is bigger than Smolensk I think). I have tried Moscow vs humans, but never surrounded it long enough for permanent starvation to have full effect - had to conquer it before the Blizzard conquered me. Leningrad, Kharkov, the southern cities that don't block a rail line - go for it. After 4 turns of isolation, it is the middle ages all over again.




Pelton -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/18/2012 4:21:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

You may wish to isolate and not capture major popluation centres and permanently remove that manower from the game. Lvov city ( at 22 ? is now a no brainer - it is bigger than Smolensk I think). I have tried Moscow vs humans, but never surrounded it long enough for permanent starvation to have full effect - had to conquer it before the Blizzard conquered me. Leningrad, Kharkov, the southern cities that don't block a rail line - go for it. After 4 turns of isolation, it is the middle ages all over again.



Interesting info.




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/18/2012 4:24:15 AM)

quote:

Your enemy seems to be the best todate you have fased


I agree




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/27/2012 10:18:33 PM)

T12

Well Pelton you were right. Robert has conceded after seeing the results of my turn 12. This turn Moscow all but surrounded, all industry doomed bar the Arm which he got out. But he lost Stalingrad this turn with everything. Leningrad dying a slow death.

Total Arm captured 124.

It was a fun game for me and we both learned a lot from it. Robert is a reliable and competent opponent. He will take a lot from this defeat. He has a game with Pelton next so I wish him well.

[image]local://upfiles/22630/9FE5DED456A446538BB2E4F063114123.jpg[/image]




sillyflower -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/27/2012 11:15:17 PM)

Hats off to you Michael for 'optimising ' German supply which makes you unbeatable ( ably assisted by your 1st turn move in the South that I have copied ever since[:)]) but it just makes it unplayable for the Russians




Michael T -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/27/2012 11:43:54 PM)


David, I have refined that Southern opening now to something even better. But glad you find it useful. And since our game my supply optimization has improved by around 20% I would reckon.
Anyway I think I will probably play as Russian next up, but not sure yet.




Flaviusx -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/28/2012 9:49:03 AM)

Yeah. It's amazing what you can do when logistics cease to be a constraining factor.

We should have nuked HQ buildups in retrospect. I voted against doing this and now regret it.





Pelton -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/28/2012 11:46:23 AM)

Yes I am going back to my old system of supply also.

I thought they were going to nerf it so I went to a more standard system of only a few hq build ups (1 in north and 3 in south) and no muling.

All my 1.06 games were basicly normal games, so going back to old rotation. I am guessing it be a while before I catch up to you on the logistics curve heheheh, but I be close enough.




Pelton -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/28/2012 11:49:49 AM)

MT let Robert know my computer has a cold and it be a few days before I can do a turn, thks




comsolut -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/28/2012 2:14:41 PM)

The poeple that have given me the most trouble fight before river (Hoooper 1.03, Kamil 1.04 and Flaviusx 1.05), the easyest run to rivers. The river crossing has to be held for 7 turns by russian player. If the German gets over before that, its trouble for the Red army until the blizzard hits. Saying you can't fight forward just is not true.

Your AGS advance is about normal over the river turn 6, again down here logistics is really not an issue until the 2nd turn over the river. D-town turn 4, Kharkov turn 6 and Stalino turn 7 is above average. Your enemy foolishly did not run over river and paid for it. I just dont see any kind of defence down here at all.

-----------

Pelton, your killing me here. [:-] I have been reading and listening to your advice to try and improve my game, since I consider you one of the top German players. So which is it - fight before the river or run to the river. I took your first advice and I am getting slaughtered in a PBEM game in the South because I fought before the river. And my opponent complimented me on my defensive lines but he believes in your second statement that fighting before the river just does not work (too close to German supply and extra German army from Grp 2), and after the thrashing I am getting, I think so too. It tough to to try and fight the supply system and fight forward as the Russian (maybe impossible).

By the way - not a personal attack - I'm just confused and want you to continue and post all your opinions. It is how I learn, that and getting smacked around a lot. [&o]




Flaviusx -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/28/2012 3:55:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Yes I am going back to my old system of supply also.

I thought they were going to nerf it so I went to a more standard system of only a few hq build ups (1 in north and 3 in south) and no muling.

All my 1.06 games were basicly normal games, so going back to old rotation. I am guessing it be a while before I catch up to you on the logistics curve heheheh, but I be close enough.



Don't get too comfy with that. Micheal T has presented an open and shut case for eliminating the buildup entirely and I'm very tempted to go back and present the issue for reexamination. We came close to doing so. You could remove it entirely and the game's logistics are still far too generous for the offensive. The buildup is just overkill on top of the rail situation.

Honestly, are you guys not even slightly troubled by how over the top this is? This is pure fantasy. I find it very ironic too given the way Micheal beat the drum for months for the silly alt scenario, a scenario he probably will never need to play since he wins the game in 1941 every time as a result of his scheme to bypass logistical constraints completely.

As I stated uptopic, this is glorious, but it's not war.




Flaviusx -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/28/2012 4:45:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: comsolut

The poeple that have given me the most trouble fight before river (Hoooper 1.03, Kamil 1.04 and Flaviusx 1.05), the easyest run to rivers. The river crossing has to be held for 7 turns by russian player. If the German gets over before that, its trouble for the Red army until the blizzard hits. Saying you can't fight forward just is not true.

Your AGS advance is about normal over the river turn 6, again down here logistics is really not an issue until the 2nd turn over the river. D-town turn 4, Kharkov turn 6 and Stalino turn 7 is above average. Your enemy foolishly did not run over river and paid for it. I just dont see any kind of defence down here at all.

-----------

Pelton, your killing me here. [:-] I have been reading and listening to your advice to try and improve my game, since I consider you one of the top German players. So which is it - fight before the river or run to the river. I took your first advice and I am getting slaughtered in a PBEM game in the South because I fought before the river. And my opponent complimented me on my defensive lines but he believes in your second statement that fighting before the river just does not work (too close to German supply and extra German army from Grp 2), and after the thrashing I am getting, I think so too. It tough to to try and fight the supply system and fight forward as the Russian (maybe impossible).

By the way - not a personal attack - I'm just confused and want you to continue and post all your opinions. It is how I learn, that and getting smacked around a lot. [&o]



There's no contradiction here. The Soviet can delay some in the south. A pure runaway to the Dnepr makes things too easy for the Axis. It's especially important imo to throw up some kind of screen to slow down the infantry and force the German to clear lanes of advance with his mobile units -- and make them move north or south rather than east.

Mind you, this will only buy you a turn or two, but every little bit helps.





Kamil -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/28/2012 6:16:16 PM)

quote:



Flaviusx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Yes I am going back to my old system of supply also.

I thought they were going to nerf it so I went to a more standard system of only a few hq build ups (1 in north and 3 in south) and no muling.

All my 1.06 games were basicly normal games, so going back to old rotation. I am guessing it be a while before I catch up to you on the logistics curve heheheh, but I be close enough.




Don't get too comfy with that. Micheal T has presented an open and shut case for eliminating the buildup entirely and I'm very tempted to go back and present the issue for reexamination. We came close to doing so. You could remove it entirely and the game's logistics are still far too generous for the offensive. The buildup is just overkill on top of the rail situation.

Honestly, are you guys not even slightly troubled by how over the top this is? This is pure fantasy. I find it very ironic too given the way Micheal beat the drum for months for the silly alt scenario, a scenario he probably will never need to play since he wins the game in 1941 every time as a result of his scheme to bypass logistical constraints completely.

As I stated uptopic, this is glorious, but it's not war.



Open and shut case? hmmm


How many other players have achieved as much as him?

Shouldn't we judge by referring to majority of results?



Michael progress is incredible, but apart from his tactical and logistic skill I assume it is the case of limited skill of his opponent too.




Encircled -> RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo) (3/28/2012 6:25:51 PM)

Non-random weather?

Only going to keep happening if you play with knowing exactly what it is going to do for the next four years




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