Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (Full Version)

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Rich Dionne -> Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (2/2/2012 1:59:20 AM)

Warning: Long post... [>:]

I don't know about you, but the rapid drop in Pacwar Japanese Oil reserves has always driven me crazy. I understand the reality during the war that Japan did gradually run out of oil as the war progressed, but it's always bothered me that I couldn't understand the mechanics of the oil reserve loss in the game. It always seemed to drop much faster than I thought it should based on the fuel I was using versus the oil I was able to bring in from the Dutch East Indies...

So, I spent some time trying to figure out the mechanics, and I think I've uncovered a major issue in the way routine convoys actually work in the game. Let me try to explain.

First of all, we all know about the weekly consumption of oil taken from Japanese heavy industry. In the current Pacwar version 3.2, that amounts to about 60 X 25, or 1500 units of oil consumed per week.

To counteract this loss, we have the routine convoy system picking up oil from the Dutch East Indies and other bases. I won't go into the details on that major subject here, but note that it is very important that you keep as many TK's in the Japanese home islands to maximize the collection of oil for your reserves. Sounds OK so far...

Here's the first major issue. Every bit of fuel provided to Japanese bases during the routine convoy phase is taken directly from the Japanese oil reserves; it is not taken from fuel stockpiled in Japanese home island bases. I never realized this before. I had always thought that's what all the large fuel stockpiles in the home islands were for. Fuel at these bases actually only gets used up if you create manual cargo TF's to ship it out.

OK, how much fuel does the routine convoy system actually send to your bases? The amount consumed by air groups and TF's is actually not that significant (another subject I'll save for another time), the big culprit here is the amount of on-hand fuel that your HQ's demand. Here's how it works.

Each of your HQ's located at a port demand fuel on-hand equal to about 2000 X Port Size. So for an HQ base with a port size of 9, your HQ will want on-hand about 18000 units of fuel. This is not consumed every week, it is just the amount that your HQ wants on-hand for potential operations. If your HQ base has less than this amount, then the routine convoy system will attempt to bring in fuel (taken from your oil reserve at an equivalence of oil X 4 = fuel provided) to meet your HQ needs. The routine convoy system will actually attempt to bring in fuel equal to 2 times the difference between the amount desired and the amount actually on hand. So if your HQ base with a port size of 9 only has 8000 units of fuel on hand, then the routine convoy system will try to bring in (18000 - 8000) x 2 = 20000 units of fuel (I know, sorry for all the math [8|]). This will reduce your oil reserves by 5000!! You think that sounds bad? Well it gets worse (and this is where I think the real problem exists).

The routine convoy system provides fuel as follows: As mentioned before, for example, let's suppose we have an HQ base that wants 20000 units of fuel ((18000 - 8000) x 2). So, first, subtract "5000" from our oil reserves. Now, do we have enough MCS cargo ships in Japan that can supply 20000 units of fuel via mixed supply??? Oh gee, no we don't... Oh well, suppose we only have enough cargo ships to supply 3000 units of fuel. Well, that's all your HQ base will get! But the 5000 in oil reserves is still gone!!! [X(] And, by the way, your routine convoy system will try again next week to meet your HQ's unmet on-hand fuel demands. You know what this leads to...

So, how do we protect our precious oil reserves from this potential disaster?

1) First of all, be very careful where you place your HQs. Try to build up fuel supplies manually at a new base before moving your HQ there.

2) Other bases connected by land routes to your HQ base will continually draw fuel away from your HQ base (Shanghai is notorious for this). So fuel supply will be easier to handle at bases without significant land route connections.

3) Placing HQ's in Japan home island bases or on a base without a port will eliminate the routine convoy issue.

4) Placing your naval HQ's in a TF will eliminate the routine convoy issue.

5) Setting up manual cargo TFs (with MCS providing mixed supply) can keep your key HQ bases supplied with the fuel levels they demand.

6) If you have 2 HQs at the same base, the on-hand fuel demand will double! Watch out for this if you unload an HQ from a TF onto a base already holding another HQ.

If you do these things I think you'll see a significant improvement in your oil reserve maintenance. May your oil reserves live long and prosper...[8D]

By the way, the same rules apply for HQ base supplies and resource consumption (at a rate of resources X 10 = supplies). It's just not as big an issue in the current version of Pacwar due to the large number of resources provided, and if you're careful with the fuel / oil maintenance issue, it'll automatically take care of any resource reserve issues.




last00 -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (2/2/2012 7:26:32 PM)

Another OUTSTANDING TIP for a IJN player! The tip in this posting is not merely useful information. it's the REVOLUTION! As long as the measure you explained works well, IJN has a fair probability of winning the game even against very experienced human player.

Hey Rich, Your desrve to be called the SAVIOR for a IJN player! [&o]

PS - Your tip in the previous post regarding the apportion of NAVAL HQ PP greatly contributed to IJN TF's remarkable performance against my opponent's appalling offensive.

Very thanks!




Rich Dionne -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (2/3/2012 5:57:12 AM)

Wow, thanks for the kind words! Let me know how it works for you; I think you'll notice a difference. It's still tough to win as the Japanese, but with improved oil reserves, your prep points will be higher, and you'll be a more dangerous foe. Banzai!!




Capt. Harlock -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (2/3/2012 8:49:26 PM)

quote:

1) First of all, be very careful where you place your HQs. Try to build up fuel supplies manually at a new base before moving your HQ there.

2) Other bases connected by land routes to your HQ base will continually draw fuel away from your HQ base (Shanghai is notorious for this). So fuel supply will be easier to handle at bases without significant land route connections.

3) Placing HQ's in Japan home island bases or on a base without a port will eliminate the routine convoy issue.

4) Placing your naval HQ's in a TF will eliminate the routine convoy issue.

5) Setting up manual cargo TFs (with MCS providing mixed supply) can keep your key HQ bases supplied with the fuel levels they demand.


Very useful info -- many thanks. I would only add that this makes AO's even more valuable for the Japanese player: they can bring fuel to where it is needed without decreasing the number of TK's in the Home Island ports. Many of the bases in the DEI will have large stocks of refined fuel when captured. Grabbing these and bringing them to where they're needed should help.




Rich Dionne -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (2/4/2012 6:34:53 PM)

Great tip. Every bit of fuel that those oilers move to bases that need it will save oil reserves from being consumed in the routine convoy phase. This is a great role for oilers when they aren't needed for replenishment TF duties. You can also use MCS carrying "mixed supplies" (50/50 fuel/supplies) to keep the fuel moving.

That reminds me of a perhaps little known fuel resource. If you move fuel off those DEI bases as the Capt. suggests, then the bases with oil resources will start to make fuel for you. You need to draw the fuel level down below 500 at the base, but then next turn the base will produce fuel equivalent to 10x the base oil resource level. So a base with an oil resource level of 90 will produce 900 units of fuel whenever the fuel at the base is below 500. I suppose this models the oil refining capacity (and limited tankage) that the Japanese captured in the DEI in 1942.




last00 -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (2/7/2012 12:49:52 AM)

I followed your suggestion in my PBEM game and has currently finished approximately 10 turns afterward.

To sum up, it's AMASING AND INCREDIBLE! Even, "Revolution" is not enogh to decribe your discovery.

I am certain that your tip in this posting is the MOST EFFECTIVE one among discoveries found after this game was released.

Beside enough PPs and increased production, this tip also produces unexpected benfits: particularly substantially reduce losses arising from US sub actions.

To restate, this tip almost ELIMINATE WEAKNESS IJN faces after the begining of 1943.

It's amasing that ,although 20 years (might be?) has already elapsed after the game was released, some genius still enrich ways of playing the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rich Dionne

Great tip. Every bit of fuel that those oilers move to bases that need it will save oil reserves from being consumed in the routine convoy phase. This is a great role for oilers when they aren't needed for replenishment TF duties. You can also use MCS carrying "mixed supplies" (50/50 fuel/supplies) to keep the fuel moving.

That reminds me of a perhaps little known fuel resource. If you move fuel off those DEI bases as the Capt. suggests, then the bases with oil resources will start to make fuel for you. You need to draw the fuel level down below 500 at the base, but then next turn the base will produce fuel equivalent to 10x the base oil resource level. So a base with an oil resource level of 90 will produce 900 units of fuel whenever the fuel at the base is below 500. I suppose this models the oil refining capacity (and limited tankage) that the Japanese captured in the DEI in 1942.





bradk -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (6/20/2012 4:23:12 PM)

I've tried it in a PBEM game... this is the Tora scenario modified with lower SSI values for oil at bases etc.

As of March 42 oil varies a few thousand around 20,000 and all HQs have 125 PPs at the beginning of a turn.

It is my impression Matrix did several things to try to increase IJ capabilty in early 42, however, clearly none are as successful has the player modifying his behavior as described. One thing not simulated in PW is realistic down time. WITP simulates this with fatague and morale ratings. The huge decrease in oil reserves and inadquate PPs when playing the standard way simulates reasonable down time for IJ in early 42. I'm wondering if using the oil reserve maintennance techniques described gives IJ too much capability in Spring 1942.





bradk -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (6/20/2012 4:24:44 PM)

Note: The results reported by last00 may not be typical. It is my understanding that the scenario being played was one intended for AI play but was used for a PBEM game.




Van Van -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (6/21/2012 2:21:29 AM)

Good stuff,thanks.




bradk -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (6/21/2012 5:56:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradk

I'm wondering if using the oil reserve maintennance techniques described gives IJ too much capability in Spring 1942.




Ummm... note that I've posted this about a game in which I'm playing IJ. Have to consider for the next game when I might be playing Allies!




Ranger-75 -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (6/26/2013 7:53:59 AM)

Rich, you have done some fantastic work on this mover the years. I'm going to write a little piece on Logistics and PacWar from a professional Logistician's point of view. I have a couple of briefings to attend to first.

And, i wrote it. Your analysis ties into the difficulties faced by Japan, right from the start. The Japanese were short of shipping from the beginning, and were hard pressed to keep things supplied.

I have a couple of questions though:

Where did that 2,000 oil aka 8,000 fuel go? It should have gone into Nagoya's storage. Is there any way to verify this? Not that it helps the robbing of the oil reserves, but at least it will increase Nagoya's fuel so that the AOs can use it for manually created TFs, etc.

Where the heck are the Japanese Tankers? Keeping the Tankers in Nagoya should at least eliminate the vaporizing 2,000 oil.

What bases have an oil level of 90????? None in the original game, not even the Eastern US. And what is this "large number of resources provided"?? Did v 3.2 go off the deep end on oil and resources? That gets a No vote from me, but I don't count.

BTW, all of your suggestions are valid and wouldn't be considered as "gaming" the system in my view.




bradk -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (7/2/2013 6:47:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger-75
What bases have an oil level of 90????? None in the original game, not even the Eastern US. And what is this "large number of resources provided"?? Did v 3.2 go off the deep end on oil and resources?



In SSI V 1.1 obc41 max oil rating for a base is Eastern US with 80.

First turn oil, obc41

SSI V 1.1 IJ 30, Allies 250, total 280
Matrix V 3.2 IJ 65, Allies 440, total 505

First turn resources, obc41

SSI V 1.1 IJ 144, Allies 186, total 330
Matrix V 3.2 IJ 520, Allies 1232, total 1752

Which is PART of the reason for the following

First turn IJ control points

SSI 16,500
Matrix 39,940
Brad 16,300

First turn Allies control points

SSI 19,950
Matrix 52,840
Brad 19,820


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger-75

That gets a No vote from me, but I don't count.




Each of us only counts to the degree others share our preferences. The Matrix version is successful because it gives many players what they want. My expecation was that the changes I made would generally be disliked with a minority enthusiastic about it.




bradk -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (7/2/2013 7:02:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger-75

BTW, all of your suggestions are valid and wouldn't be considered as "gaming" the system in my view.


I'm still pondering that. Your view is the unrealistically efficient logistics system allows IJ to conquer too much. For a player who watches prep points, the lack of oil and thus prep points limits IJ expansion. Some players ignore lack of prep points and push on anyway, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. But unlike historical IJ, if it doesn't work, they can quit without penalty.

One of the things that allows in an intially successful IJ player to continue expansion is with lack of garrison requirements, he can put many LCUs on the front line. The ability to concentrate forces - both sides - far exceeds reality.





Rich Dionne -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (7/3/2013 5:59:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger-75

Rich, you have done some fantastic work on this mover the years. I'm going to write a little piece on Logistics and PacWar from a professional Logistician's point of view. I have a couple of briefings to attend to first.

And, i wrote it. Your analysis ties into the difficulties faced by Japan, right from the start. The Japanese were short of shipping from the beginning, and were hard pressed to keep things supplied.

I have a couple of questions though:

Where did that 2,000 oil aka 8,000 fuel go? It should have gone into Nagoya's storage. Is there any way to verify this? Not that it helps the robbing of the oil reserves, but at least it will increase Nagoya's fuel so that the AOs can use it for manually created TFs, etc.

Where the heck are the Japanese Tankers? Keeping the Tankers in Nagoya should at least eliminate the vaporizing 2,000 oil.

What bases have an oil level of 90????? None in the original game, not even the Eastern US. And what is this "large number of resources provided"?? Did v 3.2 go off the deep end on oil and resources? That gets a No vote from me, but I don't count.

BTW, all of your suggestions are valid and wouldn't be considered as "gaming" the system in my view.


Thanks for the kind words Ranger! Where does all the fuel go? Well, during the routine convoy phase, tankers are the only cargo ships that collect oil. If tankers are available, the oil they collect gets accumulated into the oil reserves. If a base needs fuel, tankers never supply this fuel. It is only supplied by MCS on a 50% fuel / 50% supply basis. The fuel that goes into these MCS comes directly out of the oil reserves on a 4:1 fuel:oil ratio. During the routine convoy phase, the fuel does not come from any Japanese home island bases, only oil reserves. If there are not enough MCS available, the requested amount of fuel still gets fully deducted from the oil reserves (which seems to be a bug to me). In your example about Nagoya, Nagoya does not get the undelivered fuel, it is lost, and keeping tankers in Nagoya only helps for the collection of oil, not for the delivery of fuel (which requires MCS). Fuel only gets supplied to home island bases if you manually draw down there supplies, or they consume it. If these bases fall below 4000 in fuel, they consume 1000 in oil from the reserves and add 4000 in fuel to the base.

Regards,

Rich




Ranger-75 -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (7/3/2013 12:08:31 PM)

Hi Rich,

It's been a while since I worked through this; the allied RCS routine does use tankers to deliver fuel, but I guess the Japanese RCS routine does not. That's a big difference in the way both side's tankers are used. It's also wrong for the "requisitioned" but undeliverable fuel to vaporize like that, but your suggestions can reduce or eliminate this problem.




Rich Dionne -> RE: Major Routine Convoy Issue - Oil Reserves Beware! (7/4/2013 4:06:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger-75

Hi Rich,

It's been a while since I worked through this; the allied RCS routine does use tankers to deliver fuel, but I guess the Japanese RCS routine does not. That's a big difference in the way both side's tankers are used. It's also wrong for the "requisitioned" but undeliverable fuel to vaporize like that, but your suggestions can reduce or eliminate this problem.



Well, I looked back at some old tests that I conducted related to the Japanese routine convoy phase, and my previous comment about tankers not supplying fuel is incorrect. They do supply fuel along with MCS. The max you can get to one base is 50 MCS and 50 TK. If tankers are used in this phase for supplying fuel, I think they're not used for collecting oil. I'll have to check to confirm this, but if correct, then you still have the major problem of drawing down you oil reserves supplying fuel, and losing out on oil collection due to tanker use in fuel supply.

Regards,

Rich




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