Red artillery (Full Version)

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Seminole -> Red artillery (1/4/2012 9:30:21 PM)

quote:

Most Soviet players imo seriously underestimate the power of artillery divisions and don't build enough of them.


Saw this comment in an AAR and wanted to troll for thoughts and discussion on the utilization of Red artillery.

Should they be under the same HQ? Dedicate an HQ attached to Stavka for them?
How many on map arty counters per corps for an assaulting Army?
Can on map arty be set in reserve to defend? Do they have the same 'range' advantage? How does the HQ assignment affect their reserve ability?
Are they displaced like HQs when encountered? If so, would it be a good idea to keep them covered with a brigade, or just keep them one hex from the line covered with a corps?

Inquiring patriots of the motherland want to know your thoughts and experiences.




Fänrik Stål -> RE: Red artillery (1/4/2012 11:04:10 PM)

I've been keeping them attached at the army level, since I believe that's the way they did it historically. I was thinking about having them at the front level, but decided against it for supply reasons. The arty divs/brigs need to be close to the front line to be of any use, and I usually don't have my front HQ's close enough to the front line to keep the arty units supplied.
They have a non-zero CV so they shouldn't be displaced. I've been keeping my HQ's with the arty divisions to avoid accidentally getting my HQ's displaced. :)
I built 2 of those rocket arty divisions in my just finished GC. They took forever to fill up though, so I'm not sure they're such a good investment. The breakthrough arty divs seem more useful.




smokindave34 -> RE: Red artillery (1/4/2012 11:30:09 PM)

I also keep them attached to Army HQ for supply purposes. In my '43 PBEM match I have been building one breakthrough division, a gun brigade, and a mortar brigade for each army. I agree with Fanrik that the rocket divisions take a really, really long time to fill out so I've stayed away from them.

They will definitely not be displaced if they come into contact with an enemy unit however you should keep them behind the lines and use their mobility to support any attacks you make in their sector of the front.




Farfarer -> RE: Red artillery (1/6/2012 2:26:22 PM)

Since use short range assault SU's for my Rifle Corps ( Flame tanks, heavy Tanks, Sappers), I like the Arty Divs for the long range fire.




Schmart -> RE: Red artillery (1/7/2012 9:10:29 PM)

For those interested, according to my research, by 1945 the Soviets were fielding 37 Artillery Divisions, 7 Rocket Divisions, and 47 Artillery Brigades. I doubt any Russians players are building anything near to that.




Fänrik Stål -> RE: Red artillery (1/7/2012 9:34:56 PM)

Yeah, already in summer of -44 several armies had one or two arty divisions attached. Interestingly there were even separate artillery corps directly attached to some of the Fronts for Bagration. Maybe we should petition for the ability to build artillery corps HQs. [;)]




marty_01 -> RE: Red artillery (1/11/2012 4:31:40 PM)

Related question:  If a Soviet artillery division is not attached to the same Army HQ as the units it's supporting, does the attack get schwacked with the CV percentile decrease for attacks involving units from multiple HQs?

And to reiterate one of the original posters questions because I think it may have gotten lost in the shuffle and I think is an important tactical consideration: Do Artillery\Rocket Divisions placed in reserve status ever participate in combat --attack or defense?




Fänrik Stål -> RE: Red artillery (1/11/2012 6:09:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: marty_01

Related question:  If a Soviet artillery division is not attached to the same Army HQ as the units it's supporting, does the attack get schwacked with the CV percentile decrease for attacks involving units from multiple HQs?


I'm not sure, but I can see no reason why it shouldn't.

quote:

And to reiterate one of the original posters questions because I think it may have gotten lost in the shuffle and I think is an important tactical consideration: Do Artillery\Rocket Divisions placed in reserve status ever participate in combat --attack or defense?


I've never tried it, but if I recall correctly there was a comment in a fairly recent thread here to the effect that they will.




Seminole -> RE: Red artillery (2/6/2012 5:08:04 PM)

I'm creating light howitzer brigades (Feb '42 - 60 122mm howitzers) to help me bleed the Finns. In this particular game the German opted for a limited Barbarossa, turtling AGN along the Daugavina River early on and failing to breech the northern Ladoga line, so I still hold Pskov and intend to push hard for Vyborg in '42 in order to compel Finnish surrender.

It's the beginning of Feb., and I've already maxed Guards Rifle Divisions, so my plan at present is to pull them from the line for rest/refit/digging in around Moscow until after May, then to start wearing down the Finns with the hope of breaking their front lines and piling Guards Rifle Corps into the breech once I can create them.

In the opinion of those who may have made use of them in the past, would 18 light howitzer brigades be worth the 80 AP for this purpose? I'm thinking 9 at Leningrad and 9 north of Ladoga to support deliberate attacks and bleed the Finns in earnest all summer/fall.

I'm not sure how the pools work exactly (I know there have been some changes to what is still tracked per unit), but I presume I would lose any experience or morale gained if/when I disbanded them to create artillery divisions in Oct '42. Is this correct?




Flaviusx -> RE: Red artillery (2/6/2012 5:14:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fänrik Stål

Yeah, already in summer of -44 several armies had one or two arty divisions attached. Interestingly there were even separate artillery corps directly attached to some of the Fronts for Bagration. Maybe we should petition for the ability to build artillery corps HQs. [;)]


You don't need to. That's what airborne corps HQs are for. [:)]




Flaviusx -> RE: Red artillery (2/6/2012 5:18:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I'm creating light howitzer brigades (Feb '42 - 60 122mm howitzers) to help me bleed the Finns. In this particular game the German opted for a limited Barbarossa, turtling AGN along the Daugavina River early on and failing to breech the northern Ladoga line, so I still hold Pskov and intend to push hard for Vyborg in '42 in order to compel Finnish surrender.

It's the beginning of Feb., and I've already maxed Guards Rifle Divisions, so my plan at present is to pull them from the line for rest/refit/digging in around Moscow until after May, then to start wearing down the Finns with the hope of breaking their front lines and piling Guards Rifle Corps into the breech once I can create them.

In the opinion of those who may have made use of them in the past, would 18 light howitzer brigades be worth the 80 AP for this purpose? I'm thinking 9 at Leningrad and 9 north of Ladoga to support deliberate attacks and bleed the Finns in earnest all summer/fall.

I'm not sure how the pools work exactly (I know there have been some changes to what is still tracked per unit), but I presume I would lose any experience or morale gained if/when I disbanded them to create artillery divisions in Oct '42. Is this correct?


I've never liked them. They hardly have any more tubes than artillery SUs and are 5 times more expensive. (There's a few exceptions to this -- heavy rocket artillery brigades and the 43 mortar brigade give excellent value for the 5 APs.) Still, if you're feeling rich in APs you can take the plunge, but I think you're better off saving your APs for other things in 1942. Tank corps, mech corps (and their brigades), artillery divisions, SUs for corps attachments, the occasional guards rifle corps, and the mass 43 upgrade to rifle corps when the price drops...this stuff adds up. You may miss those APs later on when the other builds become available.




randallw -> RE: Red artillery (2/6/2012 6:43:54 PM)

I believe all equipment/troops that go back into the pool lose their specific experience, and will arrive back on the battlefield with experience levels based on whatever national morale n' stuff there's going on at the time.




Farfarer -> RE: Red artillery (2/6/2012 11:36:46 PM)

two identical Guards heavy Rocket Divs, same attack, supply state. MPs etc. The one attached to the attacking Army contributed 20 CV ( more than any of the Guards Rifle Corps). The one attached to SATAVKA contributed 3 CV. 1.05.53 beta.




Tallyman662 -> RE: Red artillery (2/7/2012 3:41:07 PM)

For everyone's information purposes, artillery is NEVER placed in reserve as a tactical or strategic consideration in real life. There is usually never enough artillery to support all formations adequately so every artillery unit usually has multiple missions in order of precedence. For instance, here is a sample artillery mission statement from an OPORD (operations order). 2/41 FA is in direct support of 1st Brigade, on order general support to 2nd ACR, with follow on mission of general support-reinforcing to III Corps Artillery.

If you wish to simulate correct artillery tactics they should not be in a RESERVE status. The use of separate artillery divisions/regiments by the Russians is well documented and if you wish to replicate that the engine allows it. Not sure how to differentiate the reserve versus defend status in the game if trying to be true to real life missions.




Seminole -> RE: Red artillery (2/7/2012 4:33:13 PM)

Wasn't there a thread somewhere that someone (ComradeP? Flaviusx?) was displaying screen caps of the various on map units TOE (so we don't have to build them first to see what is in them).
It would be nice if you could see their TOE the way you can examine a sub unit prior to creation.




Aurelian -> RE: Red artillery (2/7/2012 5:40:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Wasn't there a thread somewhere that someone (ComradeP? Flaviusx?) was displaying screen caps of the various on map units TOE (so we don't have to build them first to see what is in them).
It would be nice if you could see their TOE the way you can examine a sub unit prior to creation.


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2985695




kenh -> RE: Red artillery (2/16/2012 7:47:26 PM)

"Related question: If a Soviet artillery division is not attached to the same Army HQ as the units it's supporting, does the attack get schwacked with the CV percentile decrease for attacks involving units from multiple HQs?"

From my experience the Arty does not seem to support units belonging to other HQ's, or at least I am not seeing such in the combat results. Still, I build mountains of them as soon as brigades are available, then Divs later in the war. The brigades are not very potent but a dozen of them do a great job of knocking German fort levels down by pre-bombardment. I have used them with much success in crossing major rivers like the Dniepr.. first moving the art forward, bombarding and then making way for units doing the actual cross river assault.

I attach them to the Airborne Hq's and use them like forts to keep rear area fortifications from crumbling while they are initially building up to TOE, then move them en-mass and use in their bombardment role as required. When their mission is complete they are pulled back again to rebuild/supply. I never leave them near the front when not in use.. one attack against them and they are routed and useless for 5-6 weeks while they build up again!

I've also had luck in static situations where my artillery continuously bombards the same German static hexes turn after turn during the mud times, forcing the enemy to rotate units into the hex at an increased rate in an effort to maintain readiness there. Then when my plans or circumstances dictate, I follow up with an infantry assault that rarely fails. Mind you this only works against a static foe.

It is summer 1942 right now in my current PBEM game (turn 60 something) and I have 27 Art Brigades operating together, en-mass, headquartered by three Airborne Corps attached to a Combined Army which is in turn attached to Vorenezeth Front (The new one that apears at the beginning of June which I use as an Assault Army loaded heavy with Guards Cav and Tank Corps and backed up by a pile of Ind Tank Bn's so that each Corps has 200+ tanks) This Army has been tremendously successful as a launcher of spoiling attacks on German bridgeheads. The Arty is particularily usefull in knocking down German supply levels and thus seems good at restricting MPs to the spearheads attacked, even if the followup ground assaults are thrown back.

I always position Arty behind cities under seige, together with an Infantry Div/Corps for protection.. this aids considerably in the defence, I find, with the Arty showing up as present in almost all combat reports in the neighborhood. I've had the same Arty respond to 4 and 5 seperate attacks around it. Often, during crisis times they are the only units in possition/ready and in reserve status.

Additionally, I have had good success using AT brigades in reserve mode behind the front lines to help Inf against German Panzers, which take hard casualties when faced with an Infantry Corps or two, dug-in and supported by a couple of stacks of AT Brigades behind it. I often create rear-area "road blocks" in strategic crossroads hexes where German Pincers are likely to be encountered during a major effort to pocket my forward lines. Two AT's and an Infantry Division dug in at least to 2 will stop most German Divisions that have had to cut through my main lines first to get there.. against fresh Panzers this option is suicide, so don't try this right on the front line or you get pounced.

As for AA Brigades: I love them too because they also will support defences in neighboring hexes, it seems -they show up on the combat reports. Stacking two AA units together with an air army HQ and then encircling them with air bases provides excellent protection to the bases. Once in a while these AA "forts" (especially 85mm, which there are so many of) can stop a Panzer thrust, if they are at the end of their move and you are (extremely) lucky and dug in solidly in the rear areas with an infantry brigade to help defend/dig.

Thats my two cents on Arty.

KenH.





76mm -> RE: Red artillery (2/16/2012 7:57:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kenh
I always position Arty behind cities under seige, together with an Infantry Div/Corps for protection..I've had the same Arty respond to 4 and 5 seperate attacks around it.

Additionally, I have had good success using AT brigades in reserve mode behind the front lines to help Inf against German Panzers, which take hard casualties when faced with an Infantry Corps or two, dug-in and supported by a couple of stacks of AT Brigades behind it.

kenh, thanks for the interesting tips. for the arty units, are you saying that these are on-map arty units placed in reserve mode? if so, you're the first I've heard to confirm that arty works in defensive reserve mode.

interesting thought on using AT brigades in reserve as well; I have never built one, much less used in reserve; has anyone else tried this?




Flaviusx -> RE: Red artillery (2/16/2012 8:57:40 PM)

I've tried it, 76mm. IMO not cost effective compared to SUs. Ditto for arty brigades. As always, it's about getting the most out of your APs, and I can get 5 SUs for the price of these brigades and get similar performance. Additionally, the Soviets are more command constrained now than before, and that makes SU alternatives to these brigades even more attractive. Although there's going to be a spare 2 command points per army in the late game.








kenh -> RE: Red artillery (2/16/2012 9:43:39 PM)

Why wouldn't an Art unit not work in reserve? The trick is to have a lot of them there so the odds go up that they get used. Most players barely build them at all and most of the rest use them improperly.. they are Support Units you can move about independently, not front line combat units. They are best used mobile, moving from one trouble spot to the next.

AT Brigades can do much more to stop Axis thrusts than, say a Rifle Brigade, in some cases and both cost the same in CPs though the AT Brigades are cheaper in "stuff" and manpower.
I put the AT Artillery in Reserve, directly behind the defender.. minimum 9 at a time.
I attached a screenshot showing a 1942 AT defence, though in this case it was located only a few hexes behind the front, rather than as a rear area door stop.
The German XIV Panzer Corps was trying to do an exploit through a line that had been knocked loose a few turns earlier and was caught in the open.. I foresaw their route and placed a Panzer Trap in their path. There was one Infantry Division in each of the red X'd hexes where the Panzers are now, backed up by nine AT Art Brigades. None were entrenched.
The Germans initially hit with a 2 Pz Div haisty attack against the loan division but failed with loss! They then had to make Deliberate Attacks to make progress. I did not stop them, obviously, but stopped the deep penetration dead in it's tracks and inflicted over 100 tank combined losses in exchange for some cheap AT guns lost and/or routed

I don't have a screenshot of the losses screen but will upload one when I do, if you wish.

[image]local://upfiles/36674/A3FD9E8CC5EB4FF9B885E88F3D0BF93E.jpg[/image]




Flaviusx -> RE: Red artillery (2/16/2012 9:52:20 PM)

Of course they work in reserve. (Well, assuming they make reaction roll.) But so does a 1 AP tank battalion, or artillery regiment, or AT regiment or AA regiment. I just don't think I'm getting value for my 5 APs with brigades that are hardly any stronger than their SU equivalents. Mileage may vary.

There's some exceptions to my rule here. Tank brigades are free and you get more of them than you know what to do with. They're nice for reaction duty. Heavy rocket artillery brigades and the 43 mortage brigades are true heavy hitters packing serious heat. I like those.







Seminole -> RE: Red artillery (2/16/2012 9:52:22 PM)

For the reserve status to function they need to be in the same command chain, correct?
Best to have them under the same parent HQ, or would both of them under the same Front suffice. Basically asking how much it affects chance of commitment.

Brigades have a much higher chance of being committed based on the way reserves work, but I wonder what kind of AP cost you encounter presumably moving these guys around as 'fire brigades' where ever the panzer concentrations form.




kenh -> RE: Red artillery (2/16/2012 10:21:03 PM)

I would not have stopped a single Pz Div if I'd used the same amount of Brigades of tanks or infantry and though they cost 5pts to buy, the material contents in tubes and men are mimimal so in that respect they are cheap(er). I agree that 1pt. SU's do the job too and are cheapest to buy but they do not physically occupy real estate and half the job of these fellows consists of sitting on Fort 2 hexes, keeping them from deteriorating until needed. The screenshot was from '42, so there are no Arty Divs or Hvy Rockets around to play with. The 42 campaign starts with a pile of the little guys already attached to SW Front, so they are free and easy to concentrate.
Anyways, my point origional point was that Arty units are, yes, effective. -You just have to adapt your tactics to take advantage of their limited capabilities. I find the best thing to do is concentrate them because scattered they don't do any more than an SU would do in reactions and alone they could'nt halt a falling bicycle. And to those who were confused about the tubes firing in support in reserve: The answer is definately yes.

KenH




Farfarer -> RE: Red artillery (2/17/2012 12:36:57 AM)

Thanks kenh - I have been disbanding those buggers - might give it a try. I am a 280mm mortar fan in 41 42, but most are not. Caution on the heavy rocket SU - they seem to have priority over Rocket divs for replacements.




randallw -> RE: Red artillery (2/17/2012 2:41:55 AM)

In the past I have disband AT regiments but am trying to keep them this time.




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