Whats the pt of national moral? (Full Version)

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Pelton -> Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 10:48:36 AM)

Nation moral, which seems as pointless as hvy industry unless I am missing something?

During 41 Blizzard all german troops lose 2 pts of moral per turn ( as per 22.3.3 ) or 32 pts of moral which means after blizzard most German infantry are at less then 65 moral.

When I fight a battle the combat is based on the moral of units and not national moral right?

So what point does national moral play in the game at all other then helping russian side?

German units never gain back moral sitting, Russians do as I understand it so national moral only helps the russian side and not the German.

Am I right about this?




Cannonfodder -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 11:32:44 AM)

Trying to see beyond your biased way of putting things:

Your lower then national morale units tend to gravitate towards national morale. Your rebuilding units are affected by national morale (higher is better).

Russian national morale is lower then axis national morale... How does national morale help the russians more then it does the germans>



vlcz -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 12:18:35 PM)

A great mechanism, and IMHO a lost oportunity of getting rid of VP AND make losing terrain/battles much more meaning for both sides. By making it variable not by turn number but for war progression.



JAMiAM -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 5:01:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Am I right about this?

No.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
...I am missing something?

Yes...[:D]



ComradeP -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 5:50:07 PM)

You only lose 1 morale point per turn in the blizzard now, aside from additional morale losses when a unit is forced to retreat/routed or at certain low odds when an attack is held (unless that rule has been removed too).

German national morale has a point from a balance perspective, as it's one of the mechanisms which is likely to make the Gemans weaker over time.

I'm not entirely happy with the Soviet 1944-1945 morale, but as compensation the Soviets have lowered national morale before that.



Q-Ball -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 6:02:14 PM)

Maybe what Pelton is trying to say is this:

On Paper, the average Morale Gap (difference in National Morale) bw Soviets and Germans is around 30 in the early game, give or take (75/70 vs. a sliding scale of 50-40).

Over time, the actual morale gap between Germans and Soviets, and for that matter between Germans and their own low-morale Allies, is much less than that.

This is because almost any unit can get into the mid-50s in Morale/Experience, simply by resting, regardless of National Morale. This means that Romanian, Hungarian, Italian, and Soviet units can rountinely EXCEED their own national morale by 15 points or so, simply by resting. Because the Soviets have alot of units, they should easily be able to "park" a number of units, rotate, and raise the average morale into the 50s.

The Germans, on the other hand, if they are in the 60s in Morale after Blizzard, don't really gain it back. There is a die roll to make Morale gains, but you have to get very lucky to gain even a point through rest, once you are in the 60s. The Germans will never exceed their National Morale on rest alone, so in 1942 70 is the ceiling no matter when, except through combat.

So, though the "Paper" gap in September of 1942 is 30 points, the actual gap between Wehrmacht infantry, and Soviet/Axis Ally infantry, is more like 10 points.

I think this is what he is trying to say.

National Morale would be more meaningful if there was a "push" and "pull" toward the National Morale figure. Meaning, low-morale units were much less capable of gaining morale simply by sitting, and units with high national morale would predicably get there if they are out of combat, maybe for sure gaining a point a turn until the National Morale is reached.

Such a change would clearly favor the Germans in 1942, so that would have to be intended




ComradeP -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 6:26:47 PM)

I'm not too convinced the gap is that small by September 1942, especially after a successful Axis summer offensive. I don't really see how the Soviets will get an all 55 morale army, with a national morale of 40 and taking some serious damage in the summer offensive. The Soviets will gain morale in the blizzard through attacking, but I'm not sure if the gains will be spectacular. The Axis can also avoid this by not giving the Soviets a plethora of easy targets.

I'm concerned by Guards units having a morale of 70 in 1944-1945, but in my experience the difference in morale is still around 20 or so in 1942 after a successful summer offensive and a 1941-1942 blizzard offensive with a fairly low number of successful Soviet attacks.

Also keep in mind that even though morale decreases, elements that are exposed to the blizzard do keep (most of) their experience, so that ~65-70 morale infantry division can still have ~80 experience ground elements by the end of the blizzard.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 6:35:54 PM)

One other thing is Soviet guards units and those in Shock Armies see +5 bonuses to National Morale which hits a low of 40 in January '42.  Under 1.0.4 when it was 50, those units could get up to 55 morale, but now the high is 45 (40+5), again in Jan '42 and remains at that level through much of the year.  Since all units can attain the universal morale level of 50, it effectively means these Soviet shock and guards units won't derive any real morale benefit until their National Morale exceeds 45.  That is now Feb '43 under 1.0.5. After that, it will climb to max of 60, but by then it's April 1944. 

One thing that was removed in 1.0.5 was the build morale table for new units.  I think that was probably adding nothing to the game, and to their credit they got rid of it, using National Morale to replace it.  



ComradeP -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 7:16:12 PM)

Guards Rifle units can still get a +15 national morale gain by being Guards (+10) and being attached to a Guards army (+5). The Shock and Guards army bonuses don't apply to unit types that get some sort of morale bonus (which essentially means they only apply to Rifle and on-map sapper and artillery units). By 1944, you can have ~75 morale Guards Rifle corps attached to Guards armies with basically unstoppable CV's.

I'm not sure if Guards Tank armies give a +5 bonus before September 1942 (when the Soviets get a +5 for motorized units) or not, but Guards Tank armies won't generally add anything to the morale of units assigned to them as those units are likely to be motorized or cavalry units which get their own morale bonuses.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 7:46:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Guards Rifle units can still get a +15 national morale gain by being Guards (+10) and being attached to a Guards army (+5).


How do you get a Guards army exactly?

Edit: Checked the manual. Looks like the magic # for an army is 75 victories.



Klydon -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 10:13:05 PM)

I thought they changed the stacking on moral for Russian units in that guards divisions don't get the guards army bonus (or any army bonus for that matter if it should have one). Essentially, there is only 1 guards/shock army moral bump a unit gets someplace. They don't stack.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 10:21:40 PM)

The v 1.05 rules say this:

19) Changes to Morale Rules

    a. The following units receive bonuses to their National Morale: All Cavalry, Mountain Airborne and Air Landing units, and Axis Allied motorized units +5, German Motorized Units +10, Soviet Motorized Units (from Sept 1942-August 1943) +5, Soviet Motorized Units (Sept 1943-end of war) +10.
    b. Soviet National Morale has been changed to 50 in June 1941. One point is subtracted each month after this in 1941 (so it is 44 in Dec 41). In 1942 it is set to 40, with one point being added each month starting in September 1942 (so 44 in Dec 42). This continues in 1943 and 1944 until the Soviet National Morale reaches its maximum of 60 in April 1944.
    c. Build morale now equals national morale in all cases (there is no separate build morale table anymore.
    d. Changed rule so that the morale gain from refit when under 50 morale is only gained when the unit in refit is at least 10 hexes from a supplied enemy unit (similar to the current gain if less than morale 50 and 10 or more hexes from enemy unit).
    e. If an element’s experience is less than half of the unit’s morale, then the automatic +1 gain in experience each turn becomes +3.
    f. Shock Armies provide their +5 bonus for non-guards units which don’t already have a specialty bonus. Guards Armies provide their +5 bonus for Guards units which don’t already have a specialty bonus.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if by specialty bonus it is referring to those items under (a) then maybe they do stack if it is a guards rifle division?



Q-Ball -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 11:28:20 PM)

I interpret to mean that Guards RIFLE and Artillery units under Guard Army will be able to "Double UP".

Guards TANK or CAV units, though, will not

Before all the changes, you actually didn't want ANY guards in Shock or Guards Armies, because it didn't "Help" them. It was kind of wierd that Shock and Guards armys would all just be "regular brown".

Now, Guards Armys should have all Guards Rifle, IMO. I would attach 6 or 7 Guards Rifle Corps in 1944, and look for the nearest dug-in Germans!



Pelton -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 11:42:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Is this the rule from 9.1.1 that you are talking about:

The unit’s morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.

Do the units in question have morale below 50? If so, please send a save to 2by3@2by3games.com.




So as I was saying national moral means nothing to the Germans, the very same thing that HVY industry means zip. Sure on the nice little chart its 75 then 70, but in game as per JB's reply German national moral is 50. See Rule 9.1.1

I am tring to figure out why all the drama about how upping the nation moral of German units was going to help during 42? You can make German national moral 100 in the rule book, but in game its 50.

National moral means nothing unless your playing the Russian side.

Just as I said.

Q-ball I think your the only one who replyed not looking though Red glasses. Atleast there is someone esle on these boards who at least neutral.

Pelton



Pelton -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/3/2011 11:56:07 PM)

I tested it and out of 38 units only 4 gained moral in 4 turns and JB lowered that number to 2 because 2 units were below 50 so they gain back moral to 50 asap.

So basicly the ratio was 36 units over 4 turns and 2 gained moral. 1 pt each.

2 out of 144 or 1.4% chance. I desided that they be better digging trenchs then tring to win the lottory.

I know I am bias, but I am just guessing that Russian units top out to the nation moral level allot faster then 1.4%

Pelton



M60A3TTS -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 12:01:06 AM)

And if the Soviet national Morale is lowered, the Axis player benefits. It may not be to the degree you think it should, but I don't think glasses are involved here to be quite honest. This was probably a change the developers could handle as opposed to having no National Morale and rewriting the basic rules for morale.



Kamil -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 1:26:34 AM)

I have to say, that at the moment I see only one way national morale influences actual morale of units - keeps them from getting too high above fixed value. I agree with Pelton, that otherwise its impact is next to 0.



Other things that massively helps Soviet is fact, that it is still very easy to build forts with level 3 and no necessity to defend anything once ARM is withdrawn. If I add very high rail capacity outcome is massively favouring Soviets.


So formula for '42 is - Spam forts, lay carpets thanks to high rail capacity and wait for Oct '42 when there is Inf corps upgrade.


I would love to see some nerfing of defence capacity in general and making capturing certain objectives meaningful.

I am quite aware of the fact, that lowering defence without affecting summer of '41 and soviet winter offensive could be tricky.



Kamil -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 1:34:19 AM)

One more thing - problem of year '42 starts in '41. Soviets don't have to fight (ignoring anything but ARM) just to slowly give ground, so when winter comes they are very strong, and after tiny dip in Mar of '42 they are almost match for Germans - their infantry is as strong as German and poor quality of mobile forces they can compensate with high rail capacity what works well if Sov player is defending.



Marquo -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 1:59:58 AM)

Kamil,

Do you think that losing manpower sources is meaningful? And also RR capacity? Capturing cities means less of each; also --> keep an eye on the supply meter; have you played long enough into 43' and 44' to be sure that losing HI does not adversely affect supply?

Marquo



Kamil -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 2:19:25 AM)

quote:

Marquo

Do you think that losing manpower sources is meaningful? And also RR capacity? Capturing cities means less of each; also --> keep an eye on the supply meter; have you played long enough into 43' and 44' to be sure that losing HI does not adversely affect supply?



Well, I lost Leningrad, Tula and Stalino. I regained lots of ground during Winter, and my RR capacity is now above 100k and I got 1,3M manpower (I think I am right). So even without theses gains I would be in great shape, and to be honest I am not sure that these cities makes such big difference to Your manpower. (maybe 200-300k)

I produce twice as much supply as I need.


And as ong as Moskow stays Soviet their RR capacity will be sufficient.



NotOneStepBack -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 3:48:34 AM)

In my current game with stone10, he retreated all the way to Germany for the 41-42 blizzard, denying me as the Soviet any additional morale gains besides the national morale level. The blizzard is almost over and my entire army is huge, but has extremely low morale given that they are still inexperienced and I have no guards. It remains to be seen whether or not this will hurt me in the long run, but I have the feeling that his army is large and still has higher than average morale for '42 once his offensive starts vs. my VERY large army but with extremely low morale. I have dug in and am waiting for the blizzard to end still, so we will see.

Morale seems to be the biggest balancing aspect of the game imo. I agree with Pelton that national morale really only matters for the Russian side. The manual does state however that morale will tend to level out to national morale whether a unit is above or below it, so are there cases where idle units above national morale are losing morale in normal conditions?

There needs to be an incentive to stand your ground in this game, on both sides of the isle, and I think morale is it. Otherwise what's the point of the German invading? What do they have to gain from it? If they can't deliver the knock out blow in '41, then it's seriously a numbers game they can't possibly win.



Q-Ball -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 4:13:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

In my current game with stone10, he retreated all the way to Germany for the 41-42 blizzard, denying me as the Soviet any additional morale gains besides the national morale level. The blizzard is almost over and my entire army is huge, but has extremely low morale given that they are still inexperienced and I have no guards. It remains to be seen whether or not this will hurt me in the long run, but I have the feeling that his army is large and still has higher than average morale for '42 once his offensive starts vs. my VERY large army but with extremely low morale. I have dug in and am waiting for the blizzard to end still, so we will see.



I am curious how that game turns out, but I am betting you will like, and stone10 will not like, the result. You probably marched all the way to the Dnepr at least. You don't have much in the way of guards, but otherwise your army should be massive. 1942 will be a stalemate, and by 1943 you'll be a year ahead.



NotOneStepBack -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 4:16:26 AM)

I marched to the Dnepr and dug in, yep. I can't even go any farther west as I don't have any NKPS divisions and I have to rely on RR brigades to rebuild raillines.



stone10 -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 4:24:49 AM)

Yeah, I screwed up on the partisan. I really need to spread Axis Allies out and hunt parisans down in the spring.



NotOneStepBack -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 4:30:11 AM)

I actually considered the effect of partisans in this one, since I just didn't want German units railing back in right to the front. I thought about sending lone tank brigades out there to just cut rail lines, but their morale is so abysmal and the supply situation so crappy that I figured it wasn't worth it and the partisans would take up the slack for me with tons of night missions.



Cannonfodder -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 9:26:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

quote:

Marquo

Do you think that losing manpower sources is meaningful? And also RR capacity? Capturing cities means less of each; also --> keep an eye on the supply meter; have you played long enough into 43' and 44' to be sure that losing HI does not adversely affect supply?



Well, I lost Leningrad, Tula and Stalino. I regained lots of ground during Winter, and my RR capacity is now above 100k and I got 1,3M manpower (I think I am right). So even without theses gains I would be in great shape, and to be honest I am not sure that these cities makes such big difference to Your manpower. (maybe 200-300k)

I produce twice as much supply as I need.


And as ong as Moskow stays Soviet their RR capacity will be sufficient.


Kamil, is this a pure 1.05 game?



ComradeP -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 12:37:08 PM)

quote:

Q-ball I think your the only one who replyed not looking though Red glasses. Atleast there is someone esle on these boards who at least neutral.


How was my reply, or the reply of all others made "through Red glasses"?

Q-Ball and you have a theory, but it's a theory that doesn't always apply to the in-game reality. Yes, you can end the blizzard with a fairly small morale gap, but you might just as well end it with a ~20 points difference. It depends on how you play, the game doesn't force that on you.

I also find it highly questionable that the Soviets will somehow get all 6-8 CV Rifle divisions by mid 1942, which is what Kamil implies when he says that the Rifle formations are "a match for the Germans".

Carpeting should now be less effective from a casualty perspective, as the Germans can still knock out more more than you get each turn in 1942. Of course, the number of favourable loss ratios declines rapidly when corps arrive en masse, but by then it will be 1943 and not 1942.

As I see it, the latest updates have moved the first real problems with combat from 1942 to 1943, which means there's still a serious problem for the Axis, but at least it's less bad than it was.

Also: that land "means nothing"/means very little applies to both sides, as the Axis can indeed withdraw to their home countries without any kind of penalty being imposed on them aside from an increased likeliness that they will lose the war.



Klydon -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 1:52:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


Q-ball I think your the only one who replyed not looking though Red glasses. Atleast there is someone esle on these boards who at least neutral.

Pelton


This is the type of statement that doesn't help you bud. For the most part, there was a discussion going on above your post as people were sorting out the rules, yet you come back with the above statement. I asked a freaking question and I get lumped in with "Red glasses".

That you have raised awareness over several important issues and game mechanics is undisputed. How you have done it is another matter that has turned a lot of people off. You can say you don't care about that, but the fact is if people get to the point that they have you on ignore for stupid statements or that your latest points get dismissed because past stupid statements hurt your credibility.




Kamil -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 5:25:02 PM)

quote:

Cannonfodder

Kamil, is this a pure 1.05 game?



We started on 1.04 and switched to 1.05 in January (3 turn of '42 as far as I remember)

quote:

ComradeP


also find it highly questionable that the Soviets will somehow get all 6-8 CV Rifle divisions by mid 1942, which is what Kamil implies when he says that the Rifle formations are "a match for the Germans".



I wasn't precise enough. My divisions got 3-5 CV, but I was able to create inf corp that were around 7-10 CV. So I was able to create infantry stacks matching strength of German infantry (but not panzers). Moreover counting all of the units Soviet infantry has more CV than German.



Joel Billings -> RE: Whats the pt of national moral? (11/4/2011 5:28:09 PM)

Although I agree that the rise to national morale that comes from sitting around seems slow, another factor is the chance to gain or lose morale from combat. If I understand things correctly, it is much easier to gain morale from succesful battles when below national morale (the lower the better the chance of a gain). On the flip side, I think it is easier to lose moral from losses when over the national morale (although I'm not 100% sure of this).



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