Post WW2 estab anyone? (Full Version)

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Pergite! -> Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/8/2011 4:44:19 PM)

Hello!

I want to know if anyone have done or plans to do a Post WW2 estab for Command Ops? I know that Arjuna´s day job with the Australian armed forces probably means that something like this already exists. However, since the series now seem to remain in the past and head for the eastern front instead, it seems unlikely that we will get to take advantage of any pre-existing material for a somewhat modern setting any day soon.

I have started fiddling around with modern equipment in the estab and will see what this leads to. My initial plan is to create some generic equipment and play around with platoons as manoeuvre elements in a scenario where the battalion will serve as the map boss.



Lieste -> RE: Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/8/2011 6:47:34 PM)

I have a basic framework of data for ~1990 era equipment. A huge amount of work needs to be done to get it to a usable position, and it would also require significant changes to the code to work well (dual use AP rounds (eg HEAT/APFSDS, possibly with multiple types per system - eg M1A1(HA) had small numbers of M829A1, larger numbers of M829 and the remainder M830 (HEAT)) - also multiple round types for bombardment/Apers fire - modern M1 use both M830 (HEAT) and M831/XM908 HEAT-MP/OR, modern 155mm Howitzer use both standard HE, reduced capacity HE (ERFB or BB/RAP), Cargo (ICM)).

Armoured vehicles need at least two armour 'types' KE defeat, HEAT defeat, and a new weapon type - Guided missile might also be relevant/important to add, as there are some difficulties with F&F approximations.

Finally improved night-fighting equipment, FCS/Stabilisation, and Intel aids would be needed to do it 'right'.





wodin -> RE: Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/9/2011 2:49:29 AM)

I'd rather go back and do WW1 as it would be easier I reckon...



Pergite! -> RE: Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/9/2011 9:06:34 AM)

I think the trick is to keep inside the boundaries that the system handles when it comes to such things as armour and specific dual purpose ordnance.

I am also not really sure on how it handles mechanized infantry doctrine. Since half tracks and there likes are in the game already the model can not really be that far off. When it comes to intel I do not see a big problem. The same sensors we have now where basically present in WW2, and since the intel model is abstracted already, it could just continue in the same manner. Besides, keeping the scenarios small would mean that intel is not of the players concern anyway.

Post WW2 however does not mean modern day. M1A2 MBT´s is certainly out of the scope, but T55 tanks, M113 APC and RPGs could most certainly be implemented. The biggest differences it will add is a higher tempo and speed on the battlefield and shorter more deadly engagements.



jimcarravallah -> RE: Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/10/2011 8:54:01 PM)

The Army had a night illumination system in the early 80s; basically a high power searchlight mounted to a turret aligned with the gun sight.

Early night vision technology was available in the early 90s.



Lieste -> RE: Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/10/2011 9:41:20 PM)

Night vision equipment was not universal - some militaries were rather late implementing anything - the Israelis were one of the slower adopters, while the Soviet equipment they fought had early IR equipment from the very start ((very) short range passive IR, medium range Active IR using a searchlight illuminator).

By the early 1980s IR searchlights and detectors were commonplace (on tanks and IFV at least, even if not on APC and some infantry weapons), some weapon systems had starlight scopes (image intensifier) or Low Light TV systems that give near-IR or visible spectrum images using less than the standard light levels, and the first thermal imagers were in prototype stage (eg for M1, M2 - Leopard was still using LLTV at this stage).

Because of the increased usability of (some) weapons at night, the requirement for illumination for non-NF equipped units using searchlights and starshell has if anything increased (until the very recent with widescale adoption of NVG to most personnel) - the interaction of illumination and night fighting equipment is also complex - some like TIS are not bothered by anything except directly viewing a point heat source (eg flare) in the field of view - where the scan-line whites out, while LLTV/NVG etc are saturated by 'daylight' like levels of illumination, leaving illumination as a 'weapon' to degrade the fighting ability of a 'modern' force, while simultaneously improving the fighting ability of a 'Post-War' technology force with no sensors.



Pergite! -> RE: Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/11/2011 7:41:34 AM)



Regarding better optics and night vision equipment I will just model it with a slightly increased recon value where applicable. Better C3I in general will also wheigh in on the recon value, since information on enemy positions and movements better could be shared since radios are more widespread than during WW2.





GoodGuy -> RE: Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/11/2011 10:34:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Night vision equipment was not universal - some militaries were rather late implementing anything - the Israelis were one of the slower adopters, while the Soviet equipment they fought had early IR equipment from the very start ((very) short range passive IR, medium range Active IR using a searchlight illuminator).


Correct. During the Yom-Kippur war (1973), the Israeli tanks did not have night vision, but the Russian tanks did have such devices. In night raids, Israeli tank commanders had to find "sleeping" Syrian tanks by the sound of their engines (on idle) ... and they did.

But night vision EQ was employed earlier than some people may think: The Russian T-54A received night vision for the driver seat as early as around 1954. The system consisted of 1 infrared driver periscope and one IR headlight.
The T-54B (which entered production in 1957) was designed with L-2 IR search light, TPN IR gunner's sight and IR search light for the commander, in 1955 already. The T-55 came with a full set of night vision fighting equipment right away (production started in 1958).

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah

Early night vision technology was available in the early 90s.


That's not correct, as I outlined above.

Quite contrary, some German tanks (Panther) had been upgraded with the "UHU" 60-cm IR search light, starting in September 1944. Even though the general adoption for use in all Panther tanks was scheduled, the general adoption never materialized and only a couple of missions were conducted using the UHU, most of them in 1945. I would rather think that this first employment of night vision technology would qualify to be designated "early technology". Compared to that, the 90s EQ is top notch high tech stuff.
The first night vision solutions (introduced in 1954) in the Russian T54 tanks would qualify for the "early technology" badge too.



Pergite! -> RE: Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/11/2011 7:59:26 PM)

I have left the idea of scaling down the game to platoon elements. It just felt too awkward, especially when trying to handle supplies.

The next hurdle is ATGM´s. I am not sure on the exact differences in calculations involved that separates Guns, Rpg and Rocket launcher categories, and where to but the missiles. I am OK of abstracting them into where ever they fit, and adjust range (long range) and (mixed) reliability so that they are done justice.



Lieste -> RE: Post WW2 estab anyone? (10/11/2011 8:22:56 PM)

I think it mostly just affects the launch sound and impact animation.





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