How long to build a base? (Full Version)

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Graymane -> How long to build a base? (8/15/2011 2:08:37 PM)

Airfield and Port Construction Times

Factors involved in construction times
1. 1 Eng Vehicle = 5 Engineers and 1 build point = 1 engineer.
2. Supply Consumption Rate. Engineers in combat mode consume roughly the same amount of supply whether they are constructing bases or not.
3. Supply Consumption. Engineers in combat mode do not consume supplies at the same rates. I ran tests with 30 engineers, 60 engineers and 120 engineers both constructing and not constructing. The rates within each size were the same (60 constructing and 60 in combat mode not constructing consumed roughly the same amount of supplies.). Consumption rates per turn for 30, 60 and 120 engineers were all different. The larger the number of engineers, the fewer supplies consumed per capita. Notably, 2 supplies per engineer does not seem to hold.
4. Engineer usage. An odd number of engineers is treated as if it has 1 more engineer (5 engineers acts like 6, for example).
5. Each size of a port or airfield costs the same amount regardless of the SPS as long as the SPS is greater than 0 and the port or airfield is smaller or equal to the SPS size. In other words, a level 1 airfield on a 0(1), 0(2), through 0(9) costs the same amount of engineer points. I call this value the standard cost.
6. A port or airfield 1 size larger than the SPS costs twice the standard cost you are building to.
7. A port or airfield 2 or 3 sizes larger than the SPS costs four times the standard cost for the size you are building to.
8. A 0(0) dot base costs 20 times the standard cost for a size 1 base.
9. A 1(0) or 2(0) costs 40 times the standard cost for building a size 2 or 3 base.
10. The total SPS of the base (port SPS + airfield SPS) impacts the total number of engineers allowed to work on the base up to a maximum SPS of 9.
11. Engineers work 12 hours per day. First turn and second turn construction times are the same, so engineers seem to work during the day turn and not nights.
12. Type of island doesn't matter (6000, 60,000 or unlimited) for construction speeds.

Rules of Thumb
1. Trying to build up 0 total SPS bases (0(0), 0(0)) is generally a bad idea. You can only use a few engineers and that number goes down as the size goes up.
2. However, building up a 0(0) base with an SPS greater than 0 (say a 0(3), 0(0)) is much easier. I don't have the values in the table, but you can use more engineers which has the effect of a faster build time.

Assumptions that were not tested
1. All engineers are equal with respect to construction time and supply cost.
2. Landlocked airbases behave the same as island port/airfields with respect to SPS calculations.
3. Anything to do with forts.

Simplifications
1. I ignored disabled support/engineers during testing as it didn't seem to materially affect the results.
2. The actual standard costs are numbers like 394 and 296. In all cases, I've rounded up to the nearest hundred. This has the affect of overestimating engineers and costs. The actual values are somewhat smaller but not that much.

Other
(Testing done with 1108p7)
(Testing done with modified scenario 11 (Marianas 1943)




Graymane -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/15/2011 5:10:08 PM)

I've provided two tables to help with estimating build time and costs. The first table is the "raw" numbers along with maximum 1 turn builds allowable. The second table is a simplified version with numbers rounded to the the hundred of the various build costs.

All numbers are in terms of engineering points. The work 1 engineer performs in 1 turn. There is no relation to supply.

[image]local://upfiles/15990/87170CA145E94E46A35EDF3F42BAFCAE.jpg[/image]




Graymane -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/17/2011 6:46:06 PM)

I've updated my first two posts with explanations of what I've done and some hopefully helpful tables. I'm hoping everything is explained adequately, but if not, feel free to post comments!




witpqs -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/17/2011 8:15:17 PM)

I can't imagine how many testing permutations you went through to suss out details like max engineers allowed.

Thanks! [:)]




Blackhorse -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/17/2011 9:40:03 PM)

Outstanding research. Thanks!




PaxMondo -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/17/2011 10:27:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

Outstanding research. Thanks!

+1

Great stuff here.




mikkey -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/17/2011 11:16:00 PM)

interesting, thanks




Graymane -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/18/2011 12:10:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I can't imagine how many testing permutations you went through to suss out details like max engineers allowed.

Thanks! [:)]


I'd rather forget [;)]




dr.hal -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/18/2011 6:42:10 PM)

Really good stuff, thanks Graymane... but one thing, what does SPS stand for???? I find it mega interesting and somewhat un-understandable that there is no difference in comsuption rates if an engineering squad is at rest or in combat.... is this true for ALL types of squads? ....."all the world wonders!" Hal




Graymane -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/18/2011 6:55:52 PM)

SPS = Standard Potential Size. It is the number in parens when looking at the port or AF. You can build up to 3 over the size of the SPS. It costs relatively little to build a base up to its SPS for port and af and a lot more to go over.

As far as consumption goes, it is not comparing at rest to combat mode, it is comparing engineers in combat mode and whether or not you are attempting to expand the base size or not. I've updated the text in the first post to reflect that.




Panjack -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/18/2011 7:34:10 PM)

To help me understand these numbers, a few perhaps obvious questions.

In the top table we find under row "1", column "3" the following: "394". This means the maximum (effective) number of engineers (or engineer equivalents) is 394. If you have, say, 398 in this hex, 4 engineers are playing cards while 394 are working?

Next, the lack of parenthesis after this 394 means that in one turn (if adequate supply exists) you can built up to from a level 0 to a level 1 port? It also means you could get from a level 0 to a level 1 airfield (if that's what you're building)?

But if, say, only 100 engineers (about 1/4 of the 394) are in the hex than does this mean that it takes about 4 turns to go from 0 to 1 level base?

Then in row "2", column "3" we see "498 (84%)". This cell presumes you already have a level 1 base but are now attempting to build to a level 2 base. The number in this cell means that if you have 498 engineers you can get 84% of the way from a level 1 to a level 2 base in a single turn? If you have, however, 250 engineers you can get about 42% of the way from a level 1 to a level 2 base in a single turn?




Graymane -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/18/2011 8:32:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

To help me understand these numbers, a few perhaps obvious questions.

In the top table we find under row "1", column "3" the following: "394". This means the maximum (effective) number of engineers (or engineer equivalents) is 394. If you have, say, 398 in this hex, 4 engineers are playing cards while 394 are working?


Yes.

quote:


Next, the lack of parenthesis after this 394 means that in one turn (if adequate supply exists) you can built up to from a level 0 to a level 1 port? It also means you could get from a level 0 to a level 1 airfield (if that's what you're building)?


Yes.

quote:


But if, say, only 100 engineers (about 1/4 of the 394) are in the hex than does this mean that it takes about 4 turns to go from 0 to 1 level base?


Yes.

quote:


Then in row "2", column "3" we see "498 (84%)". This cell presumes you already have a level 1 base but are now attempting to build to a level 2 base. The number in this cell means that if you have 498 engineers you can get 84% of the way from a level 1 to a level 2 base in a single turn?


Yes.

quote:


If you have, however, 250 engineers you can get about 42% of the way from a level 1 to a level 2 base in a single turn?



Yes. You got it [:)]




jmalter -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/18/2011 8:39:22 PM)

SPS = Standard Potential Size, the # inside the ()s next to a base-hex's port/airfield capacity. a base facility can be built-up to a max of its SPS + 3, so a port currently at 3(4) can be built 4 steps to a max of 7(4).

LCUs (not actually engaged in combat) consume supplies at the same rate - they don't go on half-rations just 'cos they're 'resting' - note that 'rest' is actually 'rest/training' (supposedly the advantage to setting this mode is a better chance to increase its exp (up to a certain level which can then be improved only by actual combat experience)/morale rating and a faster rate-of-repair for disabled devices and T/O&E upgrade.

bulk thanks to Greymane for his testing/analysis! it'll be a great value to strategic planning to know that a particular base might be overloaded w/ engr units, excess engrs aren't helping matters where they're at & should be moved somewhere else.

let's see if i've got this right - building a 0(0) facility up to its max of 3(0) will take 384 turns & cost 66,000 sply pts (hmm, perhaps a typo in the chart, should (0.0075%) & (0.005%) be (0.75%) & (0.5%)?), & building a 0(1) facility to its max of 4(1) will take 33 turns & 8,800 sply - someone check my math!

where the big lesson here is that (0)-cap hexes probly ain't the best place to commit one's resources.




Graymane -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/18/2011 11:10:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter
let's see if i've got this right - building a 0(0) facility up to its max of 3(0) will take 384 turns & cost 66,000 sply pts (hmm, perhaps a typo in the chart, should (0.0075%) & (0.005%) be (0.75%) & (0.5%)?), & building a 0(1) facility to its max of 4(1) will take 33 turns & 8,800 sply - someone check my math!

where the big lesson here is that (0)-cap hexes probly ain't the best place to commit one's resources.


I've edited my second post to clear up some confusion. The numbers listed are engineer points, not supply points. When verifying my numbers though, there is an error. The problem with percentages is that at the extremes, you get extreme results. I needed to carry out the test to more turns than a couple. I haven't had time to redo them all, but I have done the 0(0) to 1(0). The actual value in the first table should be 2.4% instead of 2%. That makes the actual cost 8167 instead of 9800 which I rounded up to 10000. A better value is 8200.

I will rerun 2(0) and 3(0) and post the results. So, to answer your question about a 3(0), it will be the values from the far right columns in the second table (10000 + 24000 + 32000, these are incorrect and I will fix them tonight or tomorrow). You take that sum and that gives you the total engineer points you need. So total up your engineers and divide it into that sum and that is the number of turns to construct the airfield/port.

I have no information on supply at this time. I SUSPECT that supply is tied to the standard base cost. i.e., a level 1 base under the SPS costs the same amount of supply to construct regardless of the number of engineers. Heck, it might even be the 2 * the value from the manual [;)] It would certainly explain why I get a different number of supply used per capita per engineer with different unit sizes.




USS America -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/18/2011 11:59:32 PM)

Thanks for doing all this work, Graymane!  [8D]

I may be remembering incorrectly from Vanilla WitP, but I think supply costs for construction were 1 supply point per engineer point.  It could be changed in AE...




Panjack -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/19/2011 12:20:20 AM)

And to clarify one thing: for the purposes of building ports and airfields engineering vehicles have no special impact other than being equal to five engineers? And, so, a unit with 10 engineers and 1 engineering vehicle is, from the point of view of building stuff, the same as a unit with 15 engineers?




dr.hal -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/19/2011 1:19:42 AM)

This is really good info, thanks for the feedback guys.... I should have guessed the SPS thing.... sigh.... Hal




Blackhorse -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/19/2011 1:31:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

And to clarify one thing: for the purposes of building ports and airfields engineering vehicles have no special impact other than being equal to five engineers? And, so, a unit with 10 engineers and 1 engineering vehicle is, from the point of view of building stuff, the same as a unit with 15 engineers?


Yes




Commander Cody -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/19/2011 3:00:50 AM)

Stellar work, Sir! Us humble players do appreciate such empirical studies.

Cheers,
CC




Alfred -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/19/2011 9:39:30 AM)

Which base did you do the testing on, and which scenario? This is important to know because quite often the scenario designer has subtly altered some details between scenarios, a situation most likely to arise between a Grand Campaign (such as scenario 1 or 2) and a limited map based scenario.

Alfred




Canoerebel -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/19/2011 11:06:54 AM)

This gave me a headache. I could scarecely begin scanning this thread when my eyes glazed over and I passed out, my toes twitching and my chest hair curling and uncurling.  But I didn't lose consciousness before noting that Graymane did alot of work and that many posters knew exactly what he was talking about and derived a great deal of useful information from his tests.

This is why some players (moi....) will never be as good as others no matter how much experience we get.  We just don't want to delve into the game mechanics in this detail.




Graymane -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/19/2011 12:45:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Which base did you do the testing on, and which scenario? This is important to know because quite often the scenario designer has subtly altered some details between scenarios, a situation most likely to arise between a Grand Campaign (such as scenario 1 or 2) and a limited map based scenario.

Alfred


I've updated the first post with the version and scenario I used (scenario 11 Marianas). I basically took that scenario and whacked out the Japanese so the turns would roll faster. I've been working on trying do this with a modified 1 or 2 scenario, but it is daunting to me as I'm not good at scenario design and I don't know a fast way to get rid of the Jap units so I can just run turns.

I've asked for help in the scenario design forum: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2888387&mpage=1&key=�




Graymane -> RE: How long to build a base? (8/19/2011 12:51:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This gave me a headache. I could scarecely begin scanning this thread when my eyes glazed over and I passed out, my toes twitching and my chest hair curling and uncurling.  But I didn't lose consciousness before noting that Graymane did alot of work and that many posters knew exactly what he was talking about and derived a great deal of useful information from his tests.

This is why some players (moi....) will never be as good as others no matter how much experience we get.  We just don't want to delve into the game mechanics in this detail.


Well, to be honest, I think I'm more like you than you would expect -) The problem is, this was something that was just bugging the **** out of me. I can't believe a commander would show up at a base and ask his engineers "how long will it take you to build an airfield than support fighters flying CAP?" and not get some kind of a ball park answer (a day, a month, 6 months?).

Ok, as a software engineer and a manager, I CAN see how I could ask for an estimate and get no useful answer at all, but you get the point I hope -)




ny59giants -> RE: How long to build a base? (5/17/2012 12:31:33 AM)

Bump!!

I need to get the figures (and number of engineers needed) to expand a size 2(0) port to size 3(0) and need some R&R before I try to do it. Then what about going from a 5 to 6 and even level 7 forts.

[&o]




LoBaron -> RE: How long to build a base? (5/18/2012 9:08:47 AM)

Sensational piece of work, thank you Graymane! [&o]




Graymane -> RE: How long to build a base? (5/18/2012 1:02:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Bump!!

I need to get the figures (and number of engineers needed) to expand a size 2(0) port to size 3(0) and need some R&R before I try to do it. Then what about going from a 5 to 6 and even level 7 forts.

[&o]


Well. the tables above will answer your question about engineers for AF/Port, but I didn't do any research on forts.




n01487477 -> RE: How long to build a base? (5/18/2012 1:42:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Bump!!

I need to get the figures (and number of engineers needed) to expand a size 2(0) port to size 3(0) and need some R&R before I try to do it. Then what about going from a 5 to 6 and even level 7 forts.

[&o]


Well. the tables above will answer your question about engineers for AF/Port, but I didn't do any research on forts.

According to what I use to calculate the percent in Tracker they are all the same...




Nikademus -> RE: How long to build a base? (5/18/2012 4:00:07 PM)

nice job.

impressive study.





jmalter -> RE: How long to build a base? (5/18/2012 8:55:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
nice job.
impressive study.

hear that! i've got this post bookmarked (along w/ no few others, such as Alfred's series of 101s) & refer to Greymane's charts rather often.




Schanilec -> RE: How long to build a base? (5/18/2012 11:05:16 PM)

Another bad place for building up an airfield. Dutch Harbor. What a bear.




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