Logistics 101 (Full Version)

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Alfred -> Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 4:44:14 PM)

Gentlemen,

Recently I was contacted by a four year forumite veteran seeking clarification on how to determine how long a supply stockpile at a particular base might last. Apparently his requests from other players for similar information had not been as helpful as he had hoped.

It seems to me that other long term players, and of course in particular new players, might benefit from having all the relevant issues presented in a consolidated location. Before continuing two points need to be immediately identified. Firstly, what follows applies only to the official game scenarios. Some of the mods have altered important details. Secondly, readers who wish to see the impact of logistics on operations are well advised to read Andy Mac’s AAR. Probably more than any other AAR writer, Andy Mac regularly explains how his operations are shaped by logistical considerations. As he is a dev, his observations should not be overlooked by anyone who wishes to master this topic.

(A) Overview

The determination of how large a supply stockpile should be, or how long it might last, is not an exact science. There are too many variables outside of a player’s control for 100% predictive accuracy. What can be identified are the factors which impact upon supply stockpiles at a particular base. These factors can be broadly classified as falling within the following areas:

• Supply creation
• Supply movement
• Supply destruction
• Supply consumption

These areas are looked at in detail in the following sections. When the discussion touches on naval matters, fuel is included in the discussion. By necessity, this discussion is essentially a summary, for complete details of all the game scenario data and relationships, readers are directed back to the manual.

One very important point for players to be aware of is that the aggregated supply of all your supply stockpiles from all your bases is of no real value. To accomplish anything you need to have supply (and fuel) locally where it will be consumed. Ten million supply points located in San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego will not feed your forces fighting on Guadalcanal. Those forces will be fed solely out of what is stored locally on Guadalcanal.

(B) Mummy, where does supply come from?

There are three basic supply sources:

• National Automatic
• Imports
• Industrial Enterprises

The Burma Road is a unique supply source. Each turn that the Allied player can trace an uninterrupted supply path along the transportation network linking Rangoon and Tsuyung, 500 supply points are delivered to Tsuyung.

(B.1) National Automatic

Scenario designers can assign a daily amount of supply (and or fuel) which will automatically arrive each day at a base. This automatic delivery will cease immediately upon the capture of the base by the enemy. The deliveries will immediately resume when the base is liberated from the enemy.

The amount delivered daily is the figure to the right of the slash in the supplies on hand data found on the base screen (see manual page 205). There is nothing the player can do to increase or reduce this amount in game, other than of course to lose/capture the base.

(B.2) Imports

Some importation of supply to a base occurs automatically without any player action required. Players can manually attempt to import supply (and fuel). The opposing player can block the automatic importation, or attempt to interdict the imported supply.
Most automatic importation of supply (and fuel) occurs overland but under certain restricted circumstances, it can also occur over water (see s.9.3.3.3 of the manual). There is no aerial automatic importation of supply. Players can manually import, by ships both supply and fuel, but airplanes cannot transport fuel they can only transport supply. Players cannot manually directly import supply (and fuel) overland, however by manipulation of the supply required spinner or stockpile option, a player can manually exert some influence on the direction and amount of supply moved overland by the program automatically.

Supply will not move automatically overland through a hexside owned by the enemy nor through a contested hex.
How often supply will automatically move overland depends on the quality of the overland transportation links. The table in s.8.3.1 of the manual details the cost of moving supply through the different terrain types and transportation infrastructure.

Each overland transportation route has a value which is determined by subtracting from 100 the cost of movement associated with each hex along which the supply must travel. The value of the overland route then determines how often a delivery is made:

• Four times per week if the overland transportation route amounts to 89 - 100
• Two times per week if the route amounts to 49 – 88
• Once per week if the route amounts to 10 – 48

Bases will only export supply which is viewed as surplus. Supply in excess of 3x the amount required by the base is considered surplus. This surplus supply may go to another base or be consumed by LCUs in the field.

The amount of supply which can be delivered by a Transport plane or Level Bomber is (Maximum Load)/2000. Fractions are rounded down but each plane can always deliver a minimum of 1 supply point.

(B.3) Industrial Enterprises

Most supply is generated by industrial enterprises. For the official scenarios supply is generated by:

• Heavy Industry, inputs needed are resources and fuel
• Light Industry, input needed is only resources
• Refinery, input needed is only oil

Players must distinguish between raw material production facilities and manufacturing facilities.

Raw material production facilities are resource and oil centres. These facilities immediately cease to produce raw materials as soon as any enemy LCU enters the hex.

Provided they retain access to the necessary raw materials, either by importation or accessing a local stockpile, manufacturing facilities will continue to produce supply even if an enemy LCU is present in the hex.

Production at all industrial enterprises can be damaged by several means:

• City attack air mission (see pages 151-152 of the manual)
• Naval bombardment task force
• Upon base capture by the enemy, the amount of damage suffered by these facilities is influenced by the quantity of defending surviving engineers present at the changeover

(C) Honey, I seem to have shrunk the supply stockpile!

Sometimes players will look at the supply stockpiled at a base and see it is inexplicably disappearing. Excluding the detailed factors which are looked at in section (D) below, the usual reasons for an unexplained shrinking supply stockpile are:

• Supply (and fuel) spoilage
• Repair of industrial enterprises
• Airfield/port supply hits

(C.1) Spoilage

Bases whose combined airfield and port levels amount to less than 9 can suffer spoilage of their supply (and fuel) stockpile.

Spoilage will occur if the following base thresholds are exceeded:

• Size 8 – above 197k supply (129k fuel)
• Size 7 – above 152k supply (99k fuel)
• Size 6 – above 113k supply (73k fuel)
• Size 5 – above 80k supply (51k fuel)
• Size 4 – above 53k supply (33k fuel)
• Size 3 – above 32k supply (19k fuel)
• Size 2 – above 17k supply (9k fuel)
• Size 1 – above 8k supply (3k fuel)

Note that the check for spoilage is made for each stockpile. A Size 8 base with 154k supply plus 83k fuel will not suffer spoilage. It will suffer supply spoilage if it has 204k supply plus 22k fuel.

Dot bases can store up to 5k supplies and 1k fuel before suffering spoilage.

(C.2) Industrial Repairs

It costs supply to repair damaged industrial facilities. This is a particularly important point for Japanese players to remember for they have many more industrial facilities which might need to be repaired than the list of those dealt with in section (B.3) above.

The cost to repair a single damaged industrial centre is 1k supply. The repair will only commence if the player has also “lodged“ a 10k supply “bond” with the “tradesmen”. The supply must be present onsite.

(C.3) Airfield/Port Supply Hits

Attacks against airfields and ports can result in supply hits which destroy some supply. The actual amount so destroyed is very difficult to quantify for several reasons.

• The combat report is subject to FOW so there is always some uncertainty as to how many hits actually ensued
• Fort levels and terrain affect the supply hits
• The amount of supply destroyed is a random amount based on the device’s effect and anti-soft rating – essentially the bigger the bomb the more damage inflicted

(D) Professor, they’ll never find a use for supply, there just isn’t any demand for it!

Congratulations, if you have read this far, now comes the pay off. Supply present locally is the game currency needed to undertake the following activities not mentioned previously.

• Feed LCUs – starving LCUs have reduced firepower, reduced capacity to reduce fatigue, a lower adjusted Assault Value
• Air missions
• Rearm ships after combat
• Pay for receiving replacements for both land and air units
• Construction of base facilities

(D.1) LCU supply cost

Most players emphasise the Assault Value (AV) of a LCU instead of the combat firepower of the unit which is a much more useful measure. The merits of the two measures is however a discussion best left to another day. What players do generally tend to pay little attention is the cost of maintaining a unit out in the field.

The average size of a fully built up Allied division is about 450 AV. A fully equipped Chinese LCU could be double this but they tend to lack access to the necessary supply. A division of about 450 AV, which is not engaged in combat will consume approximately 1500 supply points monthly, or 50 daily. A brigade of approximately 150 AV not engaged in combat will consume approximately 500 supply points monthly.

(D.2) Cost of air missions

Each sortie flown consumes supply. Lack the requisite supply, the air mission is not flown. The actual supply cost depends on the type of mission flown and the type of plane as follows:

• Offensive Mission flown by a Level Bomber, the cost is (Maximum Load/1000) per plane
• Offensive Mission flown by a Dive Bomb or Torpedo, the cost is 1 supply point per plane
• Other missions such as Search and CAP expend only 1/3 of a supply point per plane

Hence a 12 plane Liberator squadron sent to bomb an airfield will consume 96 supply points. A USMC torpedo squadron of 18 Avengers will consume 18 supply points.

(D.3) Ship Rearming

The rearming of a ship after combat consumes supply. The supply cost is:

• [(Weapon Effect Rating * 2) * (Number of Guns) * (Ammo per gun)] / 2000

(D.4) Cost of replacements

The basic supply cost for a LCU replacement device is the load cost.

For air units, the supply cost for each replacement airframe depends on the type of airframe:

• 12 supply points for fighter, fighter bomber
• 15 supply points for dive bomber, torpedo bomber, float plane, float fighter
• 18 supply points for night fighter, recon
• 30 supply points for heavy bomber, medium bomber, light bomber, attack bomber, transport, patrol

Thus the previously mentioned 12 plane Liberator squadron (see D.2 above) consumed 96 supply points to fly the mission. If the squadron had 4 planes shot down, it would need an additional 120 supply points to replace it’s losses.

(D.5) Base facilities

The repair of base facilities (airfield and port) does not cost supply. However the construction of base facilities (airfield, port and forts) does consume supply. The supply is not actually consumed by the facility but by the engineers engaged in the construction work.

Engineers must be in combat mode to build base facilities. Whilst working, each engineer (an engineer vehicle = 5 engineers) consumes 1 supply point each 12 hours. Hence if a player has 100 engineers building, they will consume 200 supply points daily, an amount which is equivalent to approximately 4 infantry divisions.

Alfred




JohnDillworth -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 4:51:06 PM)

Great Stuff, Thanks!




SqzMyLemon -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 5:42:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The amount delivered daily is the figure to the right of the slash in the supplies on hand data found on the base screen (see manual page 205). There is nothing the player can do to increase or reduce this amount in game, other than of course to lose/capture the base.


I always wondered what that meant, thanks for clarifying.

On air missions, do you know at what level supply at an airbase no longer provides drop tanks for air units?




witpqs -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 5:56:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Supply will not move automatically overland through a hexside owned by the enemy nor through a contested hex.



Alfred,

A wonderful post! [:)]

The part I've emphasized in bold above I used to think was the case. However, Wobbly's and my opponents in a 2x2 verified that supply did move through a contested hex (across hex sides that they owned - I concur that supply does not move across enemy-owned hex sides). That game is under the latest official patch, 1106i.

Are you sure the statement above is the official intention? If so, then what we found is a bug and we'll report it.




fcharton -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 6:11:57 PM)

Hi Alfred,

Re: unit consumption

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The average size of a fully built up Allied division is about 450 AV. A fully equipped Chinese LCU could be double this but they tend to lack access to the necessary supply. A division of about 450 AV, which is not engaged in combat will consume approximately 1500 supply points monthly, or 50 daily. A brigade of approximately 150 AV not engaged in combat will consume approximately 500 supply points monthly.


My impression is that the load cost of a unit (troop and cargo for a lesser part) is better correlated than the AV with supply use. For Japanese infantry units in combat mode and not in contact with the enemy, monthly supply costs are correctly estimated by the formula : troop load value / 12.5. This has the advantage to work with disabled/fatigued units, even though their AV is much lower. In general, a "full strength" regiment at 120 AV will use much less AV than a depleted division with the same value.

A better of the form troop load / a + cargo load / b could probably be made to fit more cases (perhaps a and b vary depending on type and nationality).

In other mode (move, attack), usage seems to be the same, times a multiplier.

[Edit] One added benefit of such a formula is that load cost is correlated with the troop numbers you get from recon... This allows one to estimate the supply use of an enemy stack.

Francois




Cap Mandrake -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 7:37:27 PM)

Alfred;

Fascinating post. If I understand correctly you are suggesting it is possible to predict supply usage and thusly plan ahead. Why, that is revolutionary! I shall give it a try.

This should be a big improvement over logistical allocation via the big red exclamation point.




CaptDave -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 8:29:24 PM)

Great report!  Should probably be added to the Wiki, as well.  With your permission, Alfred, I'll make that happen.




DivePac88 -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 8:36:46 PM)

Thank you Alfred... this is a excellent primer on the Logistic system, the best that I've seen.




pompack -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 9:31:22 PM)

Fantastic Alfred! [&o]

I have also saved this to my personal note file for "things to remember when trying to play AE"

One small note: I think that the supply cost for an LCU engaging in combat is much larger than the daily log cost, but I don't have a clue how to quantify it beyond "Lots"




Andav -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 9:35:31 PM)


GREAT post Alfred!

1) Under the "Honey, I seemed to have shrunk the supply pile" section, I think it is worth added a note about over stacking the base with infantry. I had this "friend" who did it once and just could not understand where 20K supplies went. The base was over stacked by about 10K troops and they ate up all the supplies. Boy did I laugh at him ... [8|]

2) I am the one witpqs mentioned above who proved supplies will go across a contested hex as long as you control the hexside. I can dig up the email later. Tracker made it very easy to see supplies increasing.

Wa




Graymane -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/5/2011 10:09:39 PM)

Great post Alfred! Thanks for the great contribution to the community! How much of this will be on the test?




Sredni -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 12:03:15 AM)

Great post, thanks a bunch. Definitely bookmarking it.

Couple of questions to clarify.

B.2: Great to see how often supply is moved spelled out like this, however I'm not sure how to figure out how much supply will move. A lot of bases have their max supply movement number that will increase as you build up the base, but many bases don't. Also to clarify, does the base hex count for the terrain cost, or just the hexes between bases. For instance, Kalemyo to Shwebo is 1 jungle hex, and one cleared hex. Does that mean kalemyo to shwebo is a supply value of 70 (1 jungle + 1 clear)? Or does it count the hex the bases are in. Kalemyo is a jungle and shwebo is cleared terrain, which would give a supply value of 40 (2 jungle hexes +2 cleared hexes). Or Port Moresby to Buna: 1 rough jungle distance, or 3 rough jungle distance? And is there any easy way to tell what terrain type a hex has? Trying to differentiate between rough jungle and normal jungle is painful.

And do road and rail hexes count if they aren't actually connecting to the base you're drawing supply from? Akyab to prome is all secondary road hexes (or is that trail?) but the road isn't complete between them, it's broken by the river at akyab.

C.1 I also thought there was supply spoilage over poor roads at long distance and not just in overstocked bases, but I don't see any info about that here. I've thought for a long time that there was a lot of spoilage of the supply in china as it moves around and not just at bases.




Alfred -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 1:31:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The amount delivered daily is the figure to the right of the slash in the supplies on hand data found on the base screen (see manual page 205). There is nothing the player can do to increase or reduce this amount in game, other than of course to lose/capture the base.


I always wondered what that meant, thanks for clarifying.

On air missions, do you know at what level supply at an airbase no longer provides drop tanks for air units?


Drop tanks cease to be available when the base has less than 2x it's required supplies.

Alfred




Alfred -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 1:41:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Alfred;

Fascinating post. If I understand correctly you are suggesting it is possible to predict supply usage and thusly plan ahead. Why, that is revolutionary! I shall give it a try.

This should be a big improvement over logistical allocation via the big red exclamation point.


Cap Mandrake,

Don't worry about the additional work. I gave everyone an out in the first sentence under (A) Overview when I pointed out that determining supply usage is "not an exact science". I just don't know how anyone can accurately predict in advance when and what exactly will transpire, when those meetings between M&M Enterprises, Freight Haul Division and LYB subs occur in the middle of the ocean.

Alfred




Alfred -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 2:07:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

Fantastic Alfred! [&o]

I have also saved this to my personal note file for "things to remember when trying to play AE"

One small note: I think that the supply cost for an LCU engaging in combat is much larger than the daily log cost, but I don't have a clue how to quantify it beyond "Lots"


pompack,

The figure given under (D.1) is only a rule of thumb for a division not fighting. Section (D.4) notes, without providing any concrete maths, that the cost of taking on replacements is equal to the load cost. I would suggest the "Lots" you experience is the cost associated with taking on replacements simultaneously as you are fighting.

Basically, irrespective of the load cost each device consumes a single supply point. It is when the unit is taking on replacements that the supply cost ratchets up as the cost is based on the quite different load rating of the different devices. So replacing a destroyed tank device is going to cost more supply than replacing a destroyed infantry squad.

Alfred




Alfred -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 2:37:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptDave

Great report!  Should probably be added to the Wiki, as well.  With your permission, Alfred, I'll make that happen.


You might want to hold off doing that as I am considering doing some editing.

There were some 50-50 points I had decided to not include which upon further reflection, maybe should be included. These possible additional points include:


  • explanation of fuel consumption by ships
  • the role of tenders, port size and naval support in rearming ships
  • limitations of sub transport
  • why the supply cost for taking on airframe replacements is not necessarily paid at the airfield where the squadron is located
  • how to calculate the time needed to unload cargo at a port
  • to put in context the ship rearming formula, add some examples of rearming specific weapons/ship classes
  • provide some examples of the supply cost of individual LCU device replacements
  • comment somewhere about atoll overstacking
  • role of SPS in building base facilities
  • further elaboration on use of aircraft transportation
  • commentary on task force composition/mission


As you can see, a lot more could be added, almost certainly not everything will be. Plus there are a couple of things I need to recheck to see if they have been changed without me noticing them.

Alfred




Graymane -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 2:53:18 AM)

Would love to read more on those points, Alfred. The bits and pieces are scattered all over the place. What about the interaction of the stockpiling option and the required supply toggles?




witpqs -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 3:16:52 AM)

quote:

Each overland transportation route has a value which is determined by subtracting from 100 the cost of movement associated with each hex along which the supply must travel. The value of the overland route then determines how often a delivery is made:

• Four times per week if the overland transportation route amounts to 89 - 100
• Two times per week if the route amounts to 49 – 88
• Once per week if the route amounts to 10 – 48


These are actually additive, not exclusive. The table should be corrected:
quote:


• Four times per week if the overland transportation route amounts to 89 - 100
• Two times per week if the route amounts to 49 – 100
• Once per week if the route amounts to 10 – 100


The effect of this difference is that short range (89 to 100) gets supply 7 days per week (the short pull plus the medium pull plus the long pull); medium range gets supply 3 days per week (the medium pull plus the long pull); and long range gets supply 1 day per week (the long pull).

Attached is my cut and paste of a post by a Developer (IIRC it was James, but I am not 100% certain) when working on supply in the code.




Paladin1dcs -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 3:46:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptDave

Great report!  Should probably be added to the Wiki, as well.  With your permission, Alfred, I'll make that happen.


You might want to hold off doing that as I am considering doing some editing.

There were some 50-50 points I had decided to not include which upon further reflection, maybe should be included. These possible additional points include:


  • explanation of fuel consumption by ships
  • the role of tenders, port size and naval support in rearming ships
  • limitations of sub transport
  • why the supply cost for taking on airframe replacements is not necessarily paid at the airfield where the squadron is located
  • how to calculate the time needed to unload cargo at a port
  • to put in context the ship rearming formula, add some examples of rearming specific weapons/ship classes
  • provide some examples of the supply cost of individual LCU device replacements
  • comment somewhere about atoll overstacking
  • role of SPS in building base facilities
  • further elaboration on use of aircraft transportation
  • commentary on task force composition/mission


As you can see, a lot more could be added, almost certainly not everything will be. Plus there are a couple of things I need to recheck to see if they have been changed without me noticing them.

Alfred


This is exactly what I've been looking for, but especially the portion in bold above. The logistics handling situation in my game is anything but a science and until I really learn the system fully, I won't feel completely comfortable with any offensive I launch. I've got plenty of questions about several topics, but most are related either to logistic or troop transport.




Alfred -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 3:52:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Hi Alfred,

Re: unit consumption

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The average size of a fully built up Allied division is about 450 AV. A fully equipped Chinese LCU could be double this but they tend to lack access to the necessary supply. A division of about 450 AV, which is not engaged in combat will consume approximately 1500 supply points monthly, or 50 daily. A brigade of approximately 150 AV not engaged in combat will consume approximately 500 supply points monthly.


My impression is that the load cost of a unit (troop and cargo for a lesser part) is better correlated than the AV with supply use. For Japanese infantry units in combat mode and not in contact with the enemy, monthly supply costs are correctly estimated by the formula : troop load value / 12.5. This has the advantage to work with disabled/fatigued units, even though their AV is much lower. In general, a "full strength" regiment at 120 AV will use much less AV than a depleted division with the same value.

A better of the form troop load / a + cargo load / b could probably be made to fit more cases (perhaps a and b vary depending on type and nationality).

In other mode (move, attack), usage seems to be the same, times a multiplier.

[Edit] One added benefit of such a formula is that load cost is correlated with the troop numbers you get from recon... This allows one to estimate the supply use of an enemy stack.

Francois



I don't think there is any real benefit and value going down this path. Exact precision in a third party utility such as Tracker is desirable, for a player not so much as even the third party utility cannot take into account the variables which greatly impact upon future supply consumption. To get a precise figure you need access to all the relevant algorithms, and hope the opponent will engage in exactly the sort of actions you are predicting he will undertake.

It is Andy Mac himself (one of the devs) who recommends using unit structure not troop load to calculate baseline supply usuage. His baseline is an allied infantry division sized at 450 AV approximately. Using troop load has it's own limitations.


  • The figure quoted on a unit's screen is indicative for loading on to ships.
  • It entails much more player clicking as each LCU's screen would need to be pulled up.


I did not say that AV determines supply consumption. Maybe my point of differentiating between AV and combat firepower was not presented well enough. I might have to go back to clarify that a division with a typical 100% TOE of about 450 AV.

More significantly, in terms of supply cost I drew the distinction between just doing nothing and taking replacements. That is an area which might warrant further clarificiation if I decide to revise the "primer".

I fail to see how you can determine from recon, the troop load cost of an enemy stack. There is a very simple way of converting the info gained about an enemy LCU stack/garrison from recon into an estimate of the unadjusted AV it represents. Neither approach is of much value in helping to formulate a plan based on enemy supply consumption. Without even knowing how much supply the enemy has stockpiled at the location, I just don't see what you gain by undertaking this exercise. There is a very easy way, without the need to do any calculating at all, to determine when the enemy stack/garrison is out of supply.

Alfred




Cap Mandrake -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 5:15:52 AM)

Alfred;

Do you think I should include more fiber in my diet?




DivePac88 -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 9:25:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Alfred;

Do you think I should include more fiber in my diet?


I think that depends on how many pimples you have on your bum old chap.


[image]local://upfiles/30275/1F7CF1E814974730BAE6BCAB6EBCEDF3.gif[/image]




fcharton -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 9:41:27 AM)

Hi Alfred,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
To get a precise figure you need access to all the relevant algorithms, and hope the opponent will engage in exactly the sort of actions you are predicting he will undertake.


I respectfully disagree. Most of the time (in videogames just like in reality), you can "resolve" complex algorithms (I'm sure the supply algorithm is complicated) into simple, rule of thumb, formulae that roughly work.

This is the case here, you don't need a precise figure, but something that works in most cases. I was saying I don't like AV-based rules because it seems to only work for infantry and armour, and most of the time, LCU are not at 100% AV (because of reduced TOE, or fatigue, or... lack of supply).

I don't know the algorithm (and I don't want to know, the "game as a black box" is fine to me), but somehow, supply consumption seems to be heavily dependent on a weighted sum of squads in a stack, which, in turn, is correlated to the number of troops in the hex. Troop load is a decent measure of this (but the "nr of first/second line troops" in stack screens is fine too).

It does not make the calculations much more difficult, remembering a full IJA division is about 13000 troop load is no more difficult than knowing it is 450AV...

quote:

I fail to see how you can determine from recon, the troop load cost of an enemy stack. There is a very simple way of converting the info gained about an enemy LCU stack/garrison from recon into an estimate of the unadjusted AV it represents. Neither approach is of much value in helping to formulate a plan based on enemy supply consumption. Without even knowing how much supply the enemy has stockpiled at the location, I just don't see what you gain by undertaking this exercise.


Troop load cost is correlated to the size of the stack (nr of troops), which you get (with FOW) from recon, or you can deduce from bombardment. This provides an estimate of the supply needs of the stack. Summing over all stacks in an area, and deducing production, you get a good idea of its supply balance, and, therefore, whether the enemy must support the area or not.

Of course, this is not very useful at the tactical level (but logistics are at higher level, aren't they), and if all stacks are interconnected in a huge supply network, this information is irrelevant. But on islands, or in besieged areas, I believe this makes some sense.

Francois




inqistor -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 9:51:43 AM)

GREAT SUMMARY!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The average size of a fully built up Allied division is about 450 AV. A fully equipped Chinese LCU could be double this but they tend to lack access to the necessary supply. A division of about 450 AV, which is not engaged in combat will consume approximately 1500 supply points monthly, or 50 daily. A brigade of approximately 150 AV not engaged in combat will consume approximately 500 supply points monthly.

When I have tested planes supply consumption, I have done also quick test of Base Force supply consumption. It seems it is VERY random, and overall draft from base was in range 3-14 supply points per day. So it seems daily consumption of Division can be more than 50 points.

quote:

Hence a 12 plane Liberator squadron sent to bomb an airfield will consume 96 supply points. A USMC torpedo squadron of 18 Avengers will consume 18 supply points.

I think there is also cost of automatic torpedo restock cost for Air HQ after TB used it for attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

One small note: I think that the supply cost for an LCU engaging in combat is much larger than the daily log cost, but I don't have a clue how to quantify it beyond "Lots"

It seems pretty random, but I have seen LCU used ALL its supply in one combat. And it was full before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

C.1 I also thought there was supply spoilage over poor roads at long distance and not just in overstocked bases, but I don't see any info about that here. I've thought for a long time that there was a lot of spoilage of the supply in china as it moves around and not just at bases.

I am not quite sure about this, but I think I have seen either in beta, or one of the patches line, that supply no longer are used during automatic movement to other bases.




Cyber Me -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/6/2011 10:15:18 AM)

Thank you for your guidelines on supply usage Alfred. Now I know all there background trips for supply. No more starving millions....




mikkey -> RE: Logistics 101 (8/9/2011 8:48:51 PM)

very useful, thank you Alfred!




LoBaron -> RE: Logistics 101 (2/3/2013 1:53:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
(D.4) Cost of replacements

The basic supply cost for a LCU replacement device is the load cost.

For air units, the supply cost for each replacement airframe depends on the type of airframe:

• 12 supply points for fighter, fighter bomber
• 15 supply points for dive bomber, torpedo bomber, float plane, float fighter
• 18 supply points for night fighter, recon
• 30 supply points for heavy bomber, medium bomber, light bomber, attack bomber, transport, patrol

Thus the previously mentioned 12 plane Liberator squadron (see D.2 above) consumed 96 supply points to fly the mission. If the squadron had 4 planes shot down, it would need an additional 120 supply points to replace it’s losses.


This is something I always had issues with. Why is the mission specific supply consumption related to max load, but the replacement cost is not?
Replacing a Liberator should be much more expensive than replacing a Havoc, currently it costs the same.

I wonder how difficult an adaption of the replacement a/c supply consumption model would be.




Ah, and *BUMP* for an Alfred guide, always a good thing. [8D]




pws1225 -> RE: Logistics 101 (2/3/2013 7:13:42 PM)

Thanks to Alfred for the original post and to LoBaron for bringing it back to the surface. This is really 'must know' information all compiled into one concise post. Very useful.

regards, Paul




Sardaukar -> RE: Logistics 101 (2/4/2013 4:05:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


This is something I always had issues with. Why is the mission specific supply consumption related to max load, but the replacement cost is not?
Replacing a Liberator should be much more expensive than replacing a Havoc, currently it costs the same.

I wonder how difficult an adaption of the replacement a/c supply consumption model would be.




Ah, and *BUMP* for an Alfred guide, always a good thing. [8D]


I agree.

I think replacement cost should be combination of number of engines, with maybe some modification from service rating thrown in too.




Yaab -> RE: Logistics 101 (10/25/2013 5:21:19 PM)

Does base development level (airfield+port) affect how much supply can be moved through a base? I am not talking about bases on India-Burma border or northern Australia, just ordinary bases with no max draw limits.




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